functioning family vs loving family for kids

[james1]

hello,

I am not entirely sure where to post this, but i thought i'd put it here as my own lens is coloured (aha! i made a pun!) by my chinese experience. i'd like to hear what people think.

none of the below is academically researched, just bits and pieces of what i've picked up in news and uni, so please feel free to dispute what i say 🙂

the divorce rate has increased over the decades, in large part due to western values shifting away from traditional family values towards a focus on individual happiness. one difficulty which I experienced, and which many others have experienced, is that divorce is really really difficult for kids. even separation is difficult for kids.

in my own chinese family, i think there is more of a focus on a functioning family rather than a loving family. if the family unit works, the people are expected to continue it. I am not entirely sure why, but I guess it is more practical. At least the child and family unit has certainty about the future and is stable.

so i guess i'm really just putting it out there - are we doing the right thing by choosing love over what 'works'? in many cultures, people are told who to marry and are actually happier in their relationship later on. especially when you consider the effect of divorce on children, are we creating a breeding ground for mental illness by following our hearts and not our minds?

I know we can do both, but all the rhetoric is to "go with your gut", "do what your heart says".

[Donte]

Hello James,

Thank you for your reply.

Tough love indeed works for some, and doesn't work for others. Similarly, the absence of tough love can have positive or negative effects on the child.

We are all individuals and every family has its own culture and ways of doing things. No group is ever homogeneous - even within the collectivist cultures. If we observe any family we'll see that everyone has different ideas and beliefs etc. And this is utterly healthy and necessary for the development of all individuals within any unit and society.

When it comes to what age do children should be allowed to choose how they lead their lives, I'd say at the age they cease to be children. - If they can drive, drink, have sex, vote, work etc, then that's a clear indication that they are not children anymore.

Of course not every 18yo is independent, driving, working etc and/or fully adult. I have a 22yo who still lives at home even though she works and studies and pays her car loan and rent/bills etc. Her boyfriend sees her more than me as she's at his place every night and each weekend, (he has left home and rents, he's 23), however, she still is in my home and pays rent to me. When she decides to move out (her choice and right), then I'll stop charging her rent and bills/food expenses. This is the rational thing to do. My late partner on the other hand left home at 16. I left home at 25. It does vary a lot in each individual case and there is no right or wrong.

In Greek culture children are permitted to drink alcohol as early as primary school age. It is not uncommon for parents to give some wine or beer to their children at mealtimes. There are no age restrictions for bars or clubs either. Often you see whole families out dancing and socializing at pubs, bars, nightclubs etc. That doesn't mean of course that every family is 'permissive' or that the permissive families don't love or care for their children.

Your last phrase really resonates with me James:
"It can be so hard to really understand someone's perspectives without actually living their entire life."

[Donte]

Hello Hayfa,

I am sorry that you have had to put up with so much growing up in Australia from migrant parents. Many may relate to this. I am glad that your experience in your family has been a positive and nurturing one.

This is a great conversation which clearly indicates the diversity within diversity and that one size does not fit all.

I work in a Greek organization and from the 200+ Greek workers, we also have 200+ Greek cultures!

Australia is such a wonderful place in this respect for it provides freedom to be and supports and encourages diversity and individual expression.

No wonder so many culturally and linguistically diverse communities feel at home here. We are truly blessed. 🙂

[Hayfa]

Hi Donte'

It shouldn't be something to be sorry about, I didn't put up with it, as I said in my lost post it was my experience and it was a good experience that help ground me and taught me to be independent, make rational choices and see the world from the perspective that was right and truthful for me.
I know many people who would profess the same and take great pride, as I do from my culture, way of life and learning from good parents.

Hayfa
X

[Donte]

Hello Hayfa,

Absolutely! I agree.

The ‘sorry’ was for the harassment and bullying you were receiving from others for being who you are, and growing up in a different lifestyle.

My understanding by reading your post is that you had a tough time by others (not your family), and you had to defend being different.

I am sorry for this. And o can relate totally as I had explained in other threads and posts. My family also was very different to the culture I grew up in. Same language and ethnicity but different religion and lifestyle. - Being a vegetarian, sabbath-worshipping, seventh-day Adventist Greek in Athens who doesn’t celebrate Christmas or Easter or birthdays etc is not what typically comes to mind when people thing of a Greek or a Greek family. And yet, here we are!

Even though our experiences are as far the east is from the west, I can relate.

I know firsthand how it is to be pointed at, talked about behind your back, being harassed and victimized.

I, like you, have become stronger because of it and am proud and loud about who I am as it’s my human right.

But the decades of alienation, marginalization and victimization have taken their toll on my mental health and the way I view the world and people.

However, that’s also part of me and contributes to the ‘gift’ that I present to the world as a result. X

[Donte]

This morning as I was taking my dog downstairs to the common courtyard of our apartment block to do his business, I bumped into one of my neighbors and her daughter.

They’re polish of Jewish descent. Mother and daughter have been living here since I moved into the building back in 2012 and we are on the same floor, a few doors apart.

Mother announced that her daughter just turned 21 today and this morning she’s moving out. Going to live near her university - an hour away from here.

I asked her how she feels about this. ‘Initially I’ll be ‘hoorayyyy’’, she replied, and afterwards ‘I’ll probably look around and call name!’

Admittedly the mother loves her alcohol. Often I hear them screaming and fighting or she’s been licking her out of the apartment, not buzzing her in etc.

The daughter looked relieved and eager to leave! The mother was still smelling of alcohol. I have never been formally introduced to the daughter. This morning she looked very excited, glowing in joy!

I told her that I have a daughter too, and she lives with me. She’s 22. And I’m a single parent as well. (Only mine is not in any hurry to move out!)

It reminded me that this is natural. It’s a matter of time. Our children are not ours to keep. They come into the world and we are their custodians for a while until the time comes for them to open their wings and fly away - explore and live life on their own terms (like we did).

When it happens or how is not really relevant.

I wished both good luck in their new lives. The lift door opened. I walked inside, pressed the button and disappeared into the new day. 🙂

[james1]

hello donte and hayfa,

wow what a fascinating discussion. i hope you don't mind if i don't reply to you individually. my mind goes into hibenation sometimes and i struggle to put thoughts together coherently.

it has been really interesting to hear how our collective experiences are sometimes similar, sometimes different, and even when they are similar, our reactions and thoughts will be sometimes similar and sometimes different.

a really strong thing i can see is that we all individually believe in the betterment of children, without hurting their mental health.

Of course, we don't speak for our entire cultures, but I wonder if you feel like there are cultural differences in how you/your families "rank" mental health in importance vs Australia's attitudes in general?

In my own family, i think there is a lesser importance placed on mental health compared to the overall population. Or, perhaps more accurately, there is a lesser importance placed on how people feel. Mental health seems to be associated with long term success - if you grin and bear it now, work hard now, you will be happier in the future. Tough love is perhaps more common, all with the suffix - I am just trying to help you improve. When I talk to my other Australian born Chinese friends, they have had similar experiences and it's quite jarring.

I think this happens in many cultures, but it -seems- to be more prevalent in mine. A good example is in the movie I, Tonya. If you haven't seen it, it represents "tough love" pretty well, but in a white american family.

[GoodWitch]

James this is a fascinating topic thanks for bringing it up. I'm not going to add anything on collective vs individualistic cultures because everyone has covered it so well and I know not nearly as much as you all. I'm a white Australian woman and only have that experience to bring to it.

My family is traditional in the sense that my parents have been married almost 50yrs & there are 4 kids, 2 male 2 female. My dad worked my mum stayed home and raised us. So we are one of those good solid 1950s style, working class families politicians love to put up as the ideal. But underneath all that there's a lot of stuff that has bubbled away and caused damage that's never been truly acknowledged. My brother is a severe alcoholic & that has affected us all. My other brother is emotionally distant, my sister has dealt with childhood trauma and in my mother's view has never gotten her life together. My parents have a long marriage but there are days I think they are both miserable in it. For myself, I think I tried to copy my parents' blue print because that looked normal for me, and now after 20yrs and 2 kids am contemplating ending my marriage, not because that would be 'easy' but because I'm questioning the reasons I ever got married at all & whether I'm wasting my life doing what I'm 'supposed' to do instead of making my own way.

This society has been pushing people to find happiness for a while now without allowing people to define happiness for themselves. Happiness is still seen as owning a house, good job, 2.4 kids, happy marriage. Few if any people really achieve all that at the same time so what is going wrong? I think more people get married & have kids than really want to. I know as a woman I felt pressured to find a husband & procreate & that possibly made me rush into it at the first opportunity, & consequently put up with a lot I probably shouldn't have just so I appeared to have my sh*t together. But those standards are other people's standards, not my own. What if we recognised that people could also be happy alone, or in different types of relationships that support co or single parenting? The saying is it takes a village to raise a child, not a narrowly defined heteronormative team of 4. Maybe we are looking at childrearing in only one way when there are numerous possibilities not being considered.

Just my 2cents - GW

[GoodWitch]

PS apologies needed as I realised only after I posted my comment that the forum is 'multicultural experiences' and I've come in as a clueless Aussie having nothing of that type to contribute. Just was thinking about marriage and family and what it all means in general when I saw the heading, so apologies if I've stepped into something that was none of my beezwax.

But I've loved reading the posts about different cultures, not having a lot of first-hand knowledge of how other cultures work within the Australian framework. I'm always fascinated to hear about it and think it's great we can chat and understand different perspectives, so hope I've added something.

GW

[Hayfa]

Hi!
Please don't apologise! I am so glad you posted in this forum and it is so good to hear from you and read your perspective.
The Multicultural Experiences forum was created as a safe space for people of culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds to engage, the beauty of it also is that we get to engage and understand different perspectives from people of all backgrounds and especially western perspectives.

It is also a wonderful way to be able to offer information about eastern culture and tradition when engaging in these posts, this can be a useful teaching and awareness tool about eastern life to those who are interested.

Please feel free to engage, we welcome it!

Hayfa

[Donte]

Hello Goodwitch,

and welcome to the Multicultural experiences forum.

Reading your post made me realize I’m probably a white Anglo-Australian underneath this olive skin of mine! My soul is at least, that’s for sure!

I agree wholeheartedly that ‘society has been pushing people to find happiness for a while now without allowing people to define happiness for themselves.’

The first three decades of my life I was told what to think, how to behave, what to believe and who to be - by my parents, my church, my culture, my community, society in general.

I also felt pressured to find a wife & procreate (even though as a gay man finding a husband was truly my heart’s desire) but I felt I had no choice and I was never aloud to even dream of being authentic and true to myself. The path of my life was already designed and prescribed by others.

I also shouldn’t have married. I lived by other people’s standards not because I was weak but rather because I had no options.

I was lucky enough though to fall in love with another man and embrace my individual truth pushing away anything that stand in my way. That was the best thing I’ve ever done! I aloud myself to be. I finally became me. Not whom others wanted me to be.

Of course people can be happy alone, or in different types of relationships. I had fifteen years in a heterosexual marriage, eight years in a homosexual de facto relationship and the last five years I’ve been asexual. Throughout all these periods I have always been the father to my daughter. My sexual relationships had nothing to do with my fathering.

Needless to say that even though I am a parent, I recognize that parenting is not the ultimate goal in life and neither family is the bees knees...

One size never fits all. Whatever rocks your boat I say. I only have one life and is very very brief so I owe it to myself to live it to the fullest and without wasting any moment of it. 🙂