functioning family vs loving family for kids

[james1]

hello,

I am not entirely sure where to post this, but i thought i'd put it here as my own lens is coloured (aha! i made a pun!) by my chinese experience. i'd like to hear what people think.

none of the below is academically researched, just bits and pieces of what i've picked up in news and uni, so please feel free to dispute what i say 🙂

the divorce rate has increased over the decades, in large part due to western values shifting away from traditional family values towards a focus on individual happiness. one difficulty which I experienced, and which many others have experienced, is that divorce is really really difficult for kids. even separation is difficult for kids.

in my own chinese family, i think there is more of a focus on a functioning family rather than a loving family. if the family unit works, the people are expected to continue it. I am not entirely sure why, but I guess it is more practical. At least the child and family unit has certainty about the future and is stable.

so i guess i'm really just putting it out there - are we doing the right thing by choosing love over what 'works'? in many cultures, people are told who to marry and are actually happier in their relationship later on. especially when you consider the effect of divorce on children, are we creating a breeding ground for mental illness by following our hearts and not our minds?

I know we can do both, but all the rhetoric is to "go with your gut", "do what your heart says".

[Elizabeth CP]

Donte asked what would you do if your husband came out as gay?

We are both committed to remain faithful within our marriage so sleeping with others regardless of sexual orientation is not on. That is both our choices. If he decided to break that commitment that would be his choice but then we would probably split up.

I have a friend who faced this dilemma. Her husband left for a man. Obviously she was upset but has chosen to remains on good terms with her ex so their children still have a mother & father who are both a major part of their lives. They will still get together to celebrate their children's birthdays etc. This is far better than so many broken families were children become pawns in the war between ex's.

[Donte]

That is beautiful Elizabeth.

Thank you for your reply.

That is ideal. I'm glad that both my ex-wife and I have also done the same. Eventhough our daughter decided to come and live with me and my male partner (we never went to court with my ex-wife and filled the divorce application at the post office and divorce certificate arrived in the mail within six months). her mother always supported her and sent her money, paid child support etc. She remarried three times so she ended up having step kids and lived interstate and overseas for years, but she's been 'present' in some way or another.

The last couple of years after her third divorce, my ex-wife has moved to Melbourne again where she lives with a new guy in the same neighborhood with us, so lately my daughter (she's 22) has re-establish some communication.

Luckily we never had a 'war' and our child hasn't become a dice to be thrown around. My ex-wife has been extremely supportive and an advocate of gay rights. (We've even been gay clubbing together on a few occasions and at the Pride March a few times!) She always said to me: 'If you left me for another woman I wouldn't have forgiven you, but you left me for a man, and you are gay, I can't compete with that."

Lucky to have her in my life as a friend and blessed for the lovely daughter we have together.

[Elizabeth CP]

I believe it is important to be open & honest prior to engaging in any committed relationship. This includes discussing attitudes/expectations re having children, religious attitudes etc. I've heard people complain that their partner refuses to have children but it was never discussed before getting married!!! I know someone who had experienced one divorce after her husband came out as gay. She made it clear she didn't want a repeat experience yet her second husband only told her some time after they were married that he was gay & had been prior to meeting her. It is one thing realising after marriage but to deliberately not tell his wife before marrying is wrong.

A family member is childless because her husband doesn't want children. He was concerned about children inheriting the illness he had. She chose him over potential children but it was her choice which is important.

Of course things can change unexpectedly. In my case my husband's illness has had a massive impact on our life but I need to make the best of it. It is not his fault & neither of us could have predicted this when we met.

[Donte]

Hello Elizabeth,

Delighted again to hear from you. We are on the exact same page! Yes. It comes to Choice.

Choice is of outmost importance and an essential human right. If one has choice then they can decide with the evidence and facts at hand.

Without the choice, one just goes along.

LGBTIQ+ people are born this way, in the exact same way heterosexual people are born this way. There is no choice in being heterosexual or homosexual etc. We don’t choose our sexual orientation. The only choice we have is to embrace it and create loving and fulfilling relationships or deny it, hide it, see it as a problem, a fault, an issue, a sinful thing etc and live in constant struggle denying our true nature and trying to conform to whatever our family or group or culture or religion is telling us that we should be. - The result: getting married as this often is the only option available in order for one to leave home or enter the army or the priesthood.

People don’t just decide to change sexual orientation suddenly for the fun of it or out of boredom.

So, firstly, no one chooses their sexual orientation.

Secondly, many, particularly from religious environments and collectivist cultures are pushed, pressured, even threatened to get married or else...

Thirdly, some finally get to a point where after years of suppression, harassment, bullying, abuse from their families, church, communities etc they get the courage to ‘come out’ as they cannot handle anymore the mental torture and the shame, fear, stigma and guilt that eats them away. Unfortunately, by that stage, many are already married and with children. (That was my case at 35).

What needs to be done undoubtedly in culturally and linguistically diverse communities and religious communities in particular is provision of the right information, education, breaking down mythology about sexuality, targeting stigma and shame and the whole patriarchal, macho-male attitudes which perpetuate violence and abuse, and start accepting differences, diversity within diversity, inclusiveness, and fostering a supporting, caring, loving environment for LGBTIQ+ people and their families.

Once we achieve this (and some great work is already happening in this arena), then we can start allowing people to be themselves and to have choices over their bodies, their sexuality, their relationships, their families, and their lives in general.

This will most assuredly enhance the wellbeing of many and contribute to the recovery mindset.

[Quercus]

Very interesting and thought provoking replies. No idea where to start acknowleging them.

I'll relate James' original question about a functional or loving family to your example Donte of the freedom to choose for oneself.

Here is my dilemma.

I ask others please don't rush to judge me because this is very hard to share.

Freedom of choice is sound and just in theory. But how does it truly work within a family dynamic? Sometimes we make compromises that don't sit well with us in order to keep a family stable.

My example is one that affects you personally Donte as a gay man. I hope you don't think less of me for it.

My husband and his family are not supportive of gay marriage. Civil weddings yes but the term 'marriage' was seen as very difficult to cope with. As the marriage debate raged in public a quiet one simmered in our home.

I was expected to vote no. To support my husband because he felt at heart the use of the term 'marriage' was unacceptable.

So I worried. No? Yes? My limited experience growing up was predominantly homophobic attitudes. I never met anyone openly gay until I came to uni in the city.

My heart said but what if one day our son tells us he is gay? Will I look him in the eye and say oh yes dear I did that sorry about that?

But my heart also said my duty was to my family. Would I tell the man who married me because to him that word and choice meant so much to him that to me it didn't mean the same?

I voted no.

It doesn't sit right with me.

But it was what I did to show solidarity and faithfulness to someone who chose to love me and has kept me alive through my worst.

In my shoes what would you do? Does family stability sometimes mean uncomfortable choices?

Nat

[Peppermintbach]

Hi James and all,

Elizabeth: thanks 🙂 I don’t know if you were addressing me or everyone as you posted your reply in response to me (but that could also have simply been because my post just so happened to have been the preceding one)?

Donte’: it seems you and I share some common ground in terms of our views of what constitutes a “functioning” family 🙂 Greaf posts!

Nat: I have to commend you on your bravery for your honest admission as that takes guts...

In my shoes what would you do? Does family stability sometimes mean uncomfortable choices?

I think a key point for consideration is the world famous Ancient Greek aphorism about knowing oneself. In other words, and in this particular context, I feel it would mean knowing what, as individuals, we are willing and unwilling to compromise on. Obviously I feel this answer will differ between each person...

I know that I have “dealbreakers”, for example. This means while I’m willing to compromise on a lot of things, there are also a small number of things that I absolutely refuse to compromise on because it goes against my key beliefs (i.e. my “dealbreakers”).

I agree, yes, compromise has its place in families (or any other relationship in general). But I also feel compromise means to meet in the “middle.”

So I wonder if perhaps the word you’re looking for comes closer to “sacrifice” rather than (necessarily) “compromise.” Sorry, I hope you don’t mind my comment. The reason that I’m highlighting it is because I feel compromise and sacrifice tend to be vastly different things...you don’t have to elaborate or explain yourself to me of course...

As a loose aside, I feel most family decisions and compromises tend to only directly affect the family itself (plus maybe some close friends and local community). What I think is unique about the example you gave is, unlike most family decisions, I feel your decision had the potential to have a much more far reaching effect than only your immediate family and just the”here and now”...I wonder if this is partly why you said “It doesn’t sit right with me.” Plus, as you said, there would be implications in the future if your son (or daughter) one day tells you that s/he is LBGTIQ+...

Anyway, I’m merely expressing my personal thoughts on the questions you raised. You don’t need to answer my questions or explain yourself to me of course 🙂 I answered mostly in hope that my thoughts and challenges will help you understand yourself better...

Thanks for reading 🙂

Pepper xoxo

[Donte]

Hello Quercus,

Thank you for sharing this post on such a sensitive and hurtful issue.

This is a great example you brought of collectivist attitudes!

Many people do what they think is right by their family and relatives, friends, religion or culture and go against their personal convictions in many areas of their lives. They ultimately have to live with that. No one will ever know. Their consciousness will be the judge.

I know people from linguistically and culturally diverse groups that are threatened if they vote one way or another or follow another religion, or divorce, or refuse to marry etc. Some compromise out of fear and not wanting to be victimized, others stand up and make a change, even jeopardizing relationships, employment, safety etc. It's a personal decision we are all called to make at some point in our lives in a variety of issues. No one can judge us about it.

In regards to the same-sex marriage debate: I know a few gay people who voted 'No' also. And the majority of heterosexuals that I know have voted yes. (Again a vote is a personal choice).

This whole vote thing was a disgrace in the first place which despite the great outcome, has created unnecessary distress, victimization, harassment, marginalization and a lot of harm which has impacted on families, relationships and the mental health of millions.

Who voted for your marriage?

Nevertheless, I am not pro-marriage personally as I don't believe monogamy is natural and neither is seen anywhere in nature apart from a few exemptions.

I always believed that the beauty of being gay is that you don't need to conform to a heteronormative lifestyle. You can live as you wish with total freedom and expression of individualism. No pressure to procreate. No need to keep the family name etc...

This freedom to be unfortunately has been compromised by the gay movement wanting to abide by heterosexual models of relationships, monogamy and marriage.

Nevertheless, loving and living with whoever you like is a human right - not a gay right.

There are many LGBTIQ+ people who would like to live in a nuclear family style and they now have the right like everyone else.That's fantastic!

I've already had a marriage to a woman and to a man for two decades of my life. Not interested to repeat either. But this isn't about me. It is about equality and equity and treating all Australians the same.

Ultimately your vote didn't really make a difference to the end result so I wouldn't torture myself about it. X

[Donte]

Hi James,

I’ve been thinking more about your final question and admittedly is not often that people go with their heart, mind and gut in unison.

Often heart prevails (emotions and lust). These are very variable though. The Mind (rationalization and logic) as important as it may be is often not consulted once someone’s in love.

My mum used to say that men have two heads - top and one down below - but not enough blood to circulate through both simultaneously. (Not sure if this is scientifically proven! Haha ha but looking around me the last fifty years has truly validated her point!)

The thing is, majority of adults do not get together to have children, develop families and live their lives sacrificial for the good of their children. They come together out of sexual chemistry and desire - a primal mating instinct. Whatever happens afterwards is really nature taking it’s course.

This is why almost 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce.

Even the 50% of married couples that choose for a variety of reasons to stay together, it doesn’t mean that they are happy or fulfilled or that this is a good choice that contributes to their mental wellbeing in a positive way. (Of course the same applies to the other 50% who decide to separate. - No quarantees that they’ll be happier alone or with an other).

Ultimately, every choice we make we make it for ourselves and everything stems from a selfish base.

I often laugh when I hear culturally and linguistically diverse people often claiming that they migrated for their children and that their children somehow owe them something in return. - Their children were not born in most ocassions during the parents’ migration. They migrated cause they wanted a better life and more options and money; and a brighter future for themselves. Along the way, most procreared and of course their priorities had to change.

I kept hearing all of my life from my parents how much they sacrificed for me. What they had to go through. How difficult it was. ‘I didn’t asked to be born.’, has always being my reply.

If people are not ready or educated or skilled or capable enough to bring children into the world, then they shouldn’t.

(In my case, in all fairness, mum tried to abort me twice but was unsuccessful. The condom broke while having sex at a party with my dad. She was only 18. He was 19. They got married in 23 days. I grew up hearing how unwanted and unplanned I was. Destroyed their lives apparently.) Ooops

Sorry. Well, not really.

[Donte]

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/369526339629/head-on

[james1]

Hello,

Wow there has been a lot of interesting discussion over the last few days! I totally don't mind the conversation straying a bit from the original question because it's all related.

The original question came from thinking about the impact of divorce on kids. It was a question of: are we marrying for the right reasons? Are we marrying too early? Are we too eager to divorce in the name of happiness?

Perhaps more controversial, are we even the right judge of who we should marry when we are young? Clearly the divorce rate raises questions about our ability to judge long term compatibility.

As you've mentioned Elizabeth, and a sentiment I share too, we never have complete foresight when choosing partners. Often, as in the case of your friend, we don't even talk about critical things like do we want to have kids. Is our society's promotion of love above all (TV/friends/blogs) problematic?

So, to the topic we've gotten to: what is a functioning family?

I define a functioning family as one which can work together to achieve things. It does not need to involve love, but it should at least involve care and respect for the others. It does not even mean that the children or parents are successful. Just that they don't look to hinder each other. They can disagree on personal beliefs about sexuality, as long as they aren't negative.

But note here that all these things are completely possible without love. At my work, we try to respect each other's beliefs and goals and aspirations - we don't love each other, but we do work together. You often hear the words "work family" bandied about because of how many hours you spend at work. Perhaps that is a clue-in about how we should be building relationships with people, like family, that we spend a lot of time with in our lives: what will work.

Nat - your story is so important to this discussion! I think it can be very easy for people to judge your decision, but I think the discussion is so much wider than a narrow judgment. For me, yes. Stability and what will work, does sometimes mean uncomfortable choices.

Pepper/GW/Elizabeth - sorry about not posting individual replies. It has been very interesting reading about your perspectives too.

Interesting to read about the post-divorce side too. Here's a thought: do parents and children have different ideas about what constitutes family post-divorce? I think we do - and if we do, can this gap in perspective be difficult to manage?

Love this discussion!