Is depression a natural reaction to an insane world?

[Unbeliever]

This is a thought I have been pondering for a while.

The default to view depression as "something wrong", or a "brain chemical imbalance" or as "a disease" or something that "needs to be fixed" or requires "medication" or "therapy" appears to be the most common response of practically everyone. 

From doctors, to psychiatrists, to therapists, to the general population, to the depressed individuals themselves... the universal belief appears to be that "the person needs to get help".

But what if... the living in depressed state is correct? What if it isn't an "imbalance" or isn't something "wrong"? What if being depressed is the only natural state to be in for an intelligent, empathetic, compassionate, informed, thinking individual to exist in the current state of our world?

What if to NOT be depressed about is the true indication of mental sickness?

I'm not saying that being depressed is fun in any way... most people on this forum would be well aware that it sucks. But that is not what I'm saying. 

What I mean is... could existing in a state of depression be completely natural for someone living in a place where so many things are obviously terrible... both on a personal level and in the world as a whole?

My reasons for this perspective are numerous. Far too many to write in only 2500 words. But basically...

The real world is an extremely depressing place for any person that cares at all about anything outside of themselves.

Eg. If you care about animals... the reality is many beautiful species are already lost forever, many others are so close to the verge of extinction that even if everyone worldwide decided to do everything they could to save them... they would still be lost. At home there are people that still buy people animals as christmas gifts, refuse to desex their pets, the massive amount of pets put down in pounds annually. There is backyard animal cruelty, the dog racing industry using live bait, shooting race horses with legs, women's hormonal treatments for menapause, the meat industry, birds choking on our plastic half a world away, overfishing. The list goes on and on.

It is reality and it is depressing. Care about animals and feeling "depressed" about it IS correct. And that is one tiny subject in a plethora of subjects.

3 billion people in starving poverty, the water wars, religious fanatics, corrupt governments, womens rights violations, slavery, wars, child rape, etc etc

It's the people that are not depressed that worry me.

[Unbeliever]

Blondguy,

The legal definition of insanity when cleverly "manipulated" to be used as a legal defense in a court of law to excuse someone's illegal actions. Yes, sure. I agree.

But the dictionary definition of "insanity" is...

"in a state of mind which prevents normal perception, behaviour, or social interaction in a way that suggests serious mental illness".

... and on a world scale, this is the definition that perfectly captures how I have viewed the overall accumilative actions of our species over the last 100 years or so (and ever increasingly so in modern times) since I was about 8 years old.

I have seen and continue to see so many things that I can only explain as some kind of mass "pack or herd" insanity.

A majority percentage of the world population that seemingly would prefer to watch everything and everyone suffer horribly (including themselves, the ones they love and the future generations of EVERYTHING)... rather than find the courage to admit that they could have done things differently, behaved better or could do things in a more intelligent way in the future...

And why? Because they hate to admit to being wrong? Because they dislike taking responsibility for their past mistakes? Because "their parents" did it that way and they consider it "tradition"?Because it sucks being forced to admit to themselves that they devoted too much time believing in the wrong things? Because they are unwilling to give up or sacrifice anything they currently have as part of their lifestyle? Because breaking bad habits is really difficult? Or just because of sheer stubborness?

All those excuses are unbelievably pathetic when compared to what is going to be lost if we continue as we have and as we are.

I honestly struggle to think of anything more insane.

[blondguy]

Hey UB

I understand where you are coming from.....to a point. I am sorry that you feel ashamed to be member of the human race. You are fortunate to have had the ability to travel to South America and yes I envy your good fortune. JessF wrote an excellent post on the first page of this thread which I have quoted below for you if thats okay

JessF mentioned "The original post in this thread seemed content to wallow in the worst aspects of our world without acknowledging any of its positives. For those who think the world is in a sorry state today, I think an
afternoon at the library reading some history books is in order. We don't know how lucky we are"

You made a strong point about depression not being in your ancestry. Your ancestry is not really relevant as depression can manifest through our own biochemical make up.

There are many people that suffer the pain of manic depression (Bipolar) on the forums. You cant even begin to fathom what a person with Bipolar feels like not to mention commenting on this awful condition

UB mentioned "I definitely don't experience sufficient "joy" to "balance it out" (not sure how that would be possible in all honesty... for "balance" it wouldrequire a ridiculously and supremely unrealistic amount of "joy" on a regular basis... which I'm confident would classify me as bipolar if this actually was possible anyway)"

We are happy to be here for you UB always if you need any support

my best

Paul

[Unbeliever]

"Cognitive illusions" are often associated with good mental health and positive well‐being. In other words... human cognition has shown to be prone to an extremely biased interpretation of reality by individuals and groups (belief in things completely unrelated to any kind of reality).

Most people who are considered to be "mentally healthy" tend to believe falsely that they are better overall than other people, or that their own skills can determine their success in a purely chance task, or that certain bogus treatments they follow can miraculously cure their diseases etc. etc.

These above examples of false beliefs, are just a few that are typically known as "cognitive illusions" and have often been related with mental health and well‐being.

One psychological interpretation suggests that cognitive illusions are an adaptive mechanism, ensuring the correct fitness of the person to the environment. From this perspective, the cognitive system has evolved to interpret the world unrealistically, in a manner that assures the protection of the self.

So, illusions related to the perception of relationships between events, such as illusory correlations, or illusions of control, or causal attributional biases are typically assumed to have an important role in psychological well‐being (ie. believing falsehoods/ lies and ignoring reality = good mental health).

This means that instead of interpreting the environmental information rationally, "mentally healthy" people tend to adjust the environmental data to their prior conceptualization of the world in a manner that is self‐serving.

For instance, it has been found that the illusion of control, a bias by which people tend to overestimate their own control over uncontrollable outcomes works differently as a function of mood, serves as a self‐esteem protection mechanism.

Whereas non‐depressive people view themselves as controlling outcomes which are actually uncontrollable (i.e. illusion of control), depressive people detect the absence of any relationship between their actions and the desired outcomes. The ability of a person to perceive these absences of connections between logically unconnected things is referred to as "depressive realism".

Given that the perception of uncontrollability is related to helplessness and depression, researchers have suggested that either depressed people are depressed because they do not show an illusion of control, or they do not develop the illusion because they are depressed.

[Unbeliever]

"Cognitive Illusions" are interesting because of how it relates to common perceptions such as the concept of "Rose Coloured Glasses".

While Rose Coloured Glasses means... seeing things in a falsely overly positive light. People naturally assume that the opposite of this must be "Dark Coloured Glasses" (or some kind of equilivent) and assume that this is what people with depression must be doing. When in fact it appears that depressed people are simply more likely to be capable of seeing reality without illusions (or less capable of seeing illusions within reality... depending on your perspective) than non-depressed people. Which is why it is known in psychology as "depressive realism" and not "depressive delusion".

This in itself is a strong indication that... our current reality without illusion (or self deception) IS depressing.

This also puts the use of medications to counteract depression into interesting territory. As to be "mentally healthy", those drugs would have to assist people to accept a certain amount of illusions and self deception into their everyday life... to be happy. Which is just weird.

In regards to the world as a whole, Cognative Illusions also becomes potentially very worrying.

If the majority of the "mentally healthy" people are under the delusion that certain things are within their control when they are not... this perspective itself would breed apathy and inaction toward numerous important and time sensitive things happening currently in the world.

Because a person who believes that something is within their control (regardless of reality) they will feel no anxiety about it, they will have no sense of urgency to do anything to change it. Basically they will believe that everything is "fine" and if it ever becomes a problem they can just "deal with it then". So no urgent action is needed and there is nothing to get stressed or sad about.

However, depressed people who are less likely to accept the illusion of control over things that are "uncontrollable", are more likely to see the problems, feel the urgency, perceive the risks... feel a desperation for those things to change ASAP.

This would mean that the "mentally healthy" majority would feel little to no urgency for things to change. Feeling complacent and relaxed about them.

While people not able to fool themselves into believing falsehoods will be less likely to cope with things not changing soon and feel the frustration that necessary actions aren't being taken.

[Unbeliever]

BTW...

This morning I read in detail the report released by the WWF that humanity has wiped out 60% of animal species populations since 1970... and about how the rate is exponentially increasing unabated.

But I guess because there are rainbows and pretty flowers and I have a few dollars in my pocket, food on my plate and a roof over my head I should be happy.

Perhaps I'll should dance a jig while singing Stimpy's "happy song"....

[JessF]

Hello Unbeliever, I can see that if you have suffered depression for a long time, and can't see a way out, then trying to rebrand it as some kind of virtue may be a way of feeling less bad about yourself ("it's not me that's mad, it's the rest of the world!"). If that helps you, then by all means, run with the argument. But I guess my follow up question would be, how does this line of thought help you to enjoy your life, improve your wellbeing, and contribute to society, where you can feel part of something bigger than yourself and also develop connections that fulfill you?

Everything you write above about biases are indeed true. People with overly positive mindsets can be unrealistically optimistic, or believe they have control over events that they don't.

But this works both ways. People with overly negative mindsets can be unrealistically pessismitic, or believe they have no control over events that they do. This overly negative mindset, that goes hand in hand with depression, is believing that things are always your fault (or someone else's), are true of every situation, and will always be like this. (ALWAYS, EVERY and FOREVER are key words here)

The key is finding a balance. How would it help you to function, for example, to believe that every person you meet has a negative intention? That things will always go wrong for you? That your skills and abilities don't matter? You would never leave the house.

I think it is important to make a distinction between "depression" as a temporary state like sadness or disappointment, and "depression" as an illness, which involves the relentlessly negative and unhelpful mindsets described above. Perhaps we need an opposite illness to depression to describe the overly positive people? Magical thinkers perhaps? Interested in your thoughts.

[Unbeliever]

JessF,

This is the 2nd time on my thread that you have stated that I am attempting to "rebrand" depression as a virtue for self serving purposes.

I understand why you would try to translate what I am saying in this way. I realise that the concept I am trying to convey is extremely alien to you... and that it is so counter to the standardised perspective on depression that it falls into a scary and uncomfortable catagory for many.

But, I am not claiming that "depression is a positive attribute" at all. What I am saying is that feeling ongoing depression is a logical RESULTANT CONDITION to what is happening in the world we have been raised in.

By this I mean that an increasing number of depressed people worldwide today... for me is a logical reaction to today's world. There is no "mystery". No, "what is causing this depression epidemic amongst modern generations"? To me it all makes perfect sense.

Again, it is difficult to cover in a post that I am not ignoring the good in favour of the bad" I saw a baby zebra born today, the Royal Aus visit was nice, the boy selling his pasta princess necklaces for charity is awesome. Yesterday, I saw a young man give up his seat for an elderly lady and saw photos of a starving ex-homeless dog 6 months after being adopted.

But this is not BALANCE is it!

I was born in 1977. In that time there has not been a day without war. Not 1 day that our species has agreed to take "a day off" from killing each other. In that time, 60% of all animals species have been wiped out without 1 temporary day of improvement. One of the largest and historically successful biomasses in our oceans has almost been completely consumed ravenously and about to go extinct. Millions of refugees without a home country becoming one of the most hated demographics on Earth. I could go on and on.

All the pasta necklaces, and flowers, and butterflies, and cute baby panda births, and successfully seperated conjoined twins, and number of happy people in the world cannot BALANCE THESE THINGS OUT.

If I was still depressed about wars that ended 20 years ago. I would agree with you. If I was depressed about all the extinct animals humans wiped out 50 years ago. I would agree with you.

But I am talking about daily, recurring, persistant, ongoing, neverending, EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE from birth stuff. And not little things either. Big deal serious stuff.

That anyone would think that depression is an unnatural reaction to these things is mindblowing.

[BluBelle]

I haven't read every post in this thread, just the first and last page, so I do apologise if I'm covering well-trodden ground here! I'm a bit of an amateur history enthusiast and I particularly love learning about how everyday people lived through the ages. Humans have been doing terrible things for as long as they have inhabited this planet - war, famine, disease, crime, inequity, torture, corruption, environmental destruction, the list goes on. If you were to graph the incidence of some of those terrible things over time, today's age is actually pretty good for most of the world's population. We've created technology to make the basic needs on Maslow's Pyramid easier and more accessible. I think the major difference is that, thanks to that same technology, our access to information has also changed. We now have access to all the suffering of the world in our pockets.

Humans are pretty good at compartmentalising but we've just never had this level of misery to deal with before. We might have coped with 20 pages of a newspaper, or a letter from a relative, or a visit from a neighbour, or even 30mins of nightly news. It's sensory overload now, and it's happened too quickly for us to adapt. I try to curate the information I see online, muting friends on social media who constantly share slaughterhouse videos for example. I try to actively seek out positive news stories to balance the input. Sometimes I feel guilty for doing that, I do care about people who are suffering in the world and I don't want to ignore their plight. But I need a reservoir of compassion for myself or I will sink even deeper in hopelessness. I don't know if the world as it is has caused my depression (correlation and causation are tricky concepts) but it certainly has the potential to impact my mood, my outlook, my energy, my sense of accomplishment.

[Unbeliever]

BluBelle,

I don't disagree with you, and I completely understand what you mean by over access to information in the modern age and the need to "switch off" to protect your sanity... and that fact is kind of my point.

But although as you said, historically humanity has been through and done some pretty awful things in the past. There is one significantly major difference.

As tough as many peoples lives were in the past, it can't possibly compare to the sheer numbers of what is happening right now.

Never in our history has there ever been close to 68.5 million people around the world being forced from their homes. 821 million people starving worldwide (over 150 million of those being children). Over 3 billion people living in poverty (just under 40 percent of all people alive on the entire planet). 21 million people subjected to forced labour slavery (underestimated) with 22% (4.5 million) (again underestimated) sexually trafficked by force against their will. And you can't even find close to accurate statistics for annual deaths from constant daily wars anywhere online... but it is obviously high.

Sure there have been terrible periods for humans in history... absolutely. But not the "dark ages", not the crusades, not the genocide of the South Americans or native Indians, not even the world wars... none of them are even close to the sheer numbers of people suffering in the world as there are annually today, right now, this second.

And thats just "human stuff". Then there is species extinctions, complete ecosystem collapses, ridiculous levels of pollution (not over small areas or a few major fresh waterways near populated areas like in the past), entire coastal areas being washed away by the oceans... there is nothing like this in our entire history.

Before Dodos went extinct in 1662 the people who proposed the concept of "human driven extinction" were ridiculed by the scientific community as an utter impossibility and complete nonsense. Now we accept extinctions every 3rd day while chugging down our latte's like it's nothing.

It's not just about "information accessability"... it is about even in the absolute worst times in all of our history, these levels of suffering (both human and other species) has never happened before. Not ever. Only now.

Today IS unprecedented history. 100 years from now if there are any humans still around they will be discussing this period of time and debating how we could have possibly been this stupid and done nothing.

[blondguy]

Hi UB

You do provide many excellent points...no worries at all...and I think you know that the majority of people agree with your reasoning and your care factor.

I joined the forums in 2016 when you did too UB!. JessF has been a 'quiet achiever' on the forums for a lot longer than I have. I have always respected and learned from her input as she has an innate gift where balancing our life issues are concerned. I havent had JessF reply on one of my threads yet,....You have UB....JessF posts on your thread because she has a strong sense of decency and care where your pain is concerned

May I ask you how you have been? (if not no worries at all)

My kind thoughts UB

Paul