Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

[Rob13579]

My father became an Australian citizen in his 20s during his studies; so I was an Australian citizen by descent when I was born. However, I was born and raised overseas until I was 13 years old and then I moved to Australia. I can speak English clearly most of the time when I am not tired or nervous, but I still have a foreign accent (as described by some people I have encountered over the past 9 years in Australia).

Over the past 9 years, I have noticed that if I do not speak much, some people naturally assume that I do not speak or understand English well. I was in a seminar and there was a Mandarin translation service. After the seminar, an acquaintance at the time asked me whether the headphones worked properly. At the moment, I wondered whether it was because I looked Chinese to him (whom I had barely spoken with a week before the seminar) and that means I do not understand English? By the way, Chinese is a nationality and there are 56 ethnic groups in China.

I gave 2 talks which were great according to the audience; however, both times after the talk, an acquaintance I have known for ~3 years said perfect or great English as a compliment. I said to myself, so an East Asian looking person or someone with a foreign accent does not generally speak English well? which is a speculation of mine. One time someone on the street thought I looked "Vietnamese" and said "hello" to me in Vietnamese as he explained. Another person I met for the first time at a train station was impressed by my English after he found out that I was born and raised overseas. Even friends (not close) asked me how could I speak good English because "many" "Chinese" people they know do not speak English as good as I do, or they said something similar to that.

There are more experiences similar to the above examples. They all asked me "where are you from (originally)?" at some point. I sometimes struggle to answer that question because I do not know what they actually mean by "originally". I have been an Australian citizen since I was born in East Asia, so I am actually from Australia and East Asia? Or should I answer where I was born?

I believe people who asked those questions or made those comments did not mean to offend anyone. They simply have not had many multicultural interactions in their lives due to all sort of reasons, or they are trying to be nice by making a compliment.
However, I could not help but feel self-conscious because even today I still have similar experiences.

[Donte]

Hello Rob,

What a great thread! Thank you for sharing this experience in this forum. I hear ya loud and clear!

People always ask me ‘where are you from?’, even though I’m an Australian citizen and have lived double the years in Australia than in my birth country. I usually respond: ‘Do you mean which planet?’ Hahaaa

I often also tell them which suburb I’m from to which they carry on to explain they mean ‘which country’!

Of course when I tell them where I was born, automatically comes all the stereotypical comments about my country and belief systems etc (I was born in Greece, thus immediately the assumptions come that I’m Orthofox, I dance Zorba, eat souvlaki, and lots of references to the movie ‘My Big Fat Greek Wedding’, which has actually nothing to do with my reality growing up as a Seventh-Day Adventist, being gay, having an only child which I raised alone with no extended family, grandparents etc).

I also grew up vegetarian and dancing was forbidden in my religion of origin.

The last couple of decades I’ve embraced atheism as well. So there you go!

It’s such a great point you’ve made about being judged, not only by your accent, but also by your looks.

I have a friend who has Asian appearance and yet his language of origin is Greek. He speaks fluent Greek, plays bouzouki (professional musician) and is an Orthodox. His mum is Greek and his dad Chinese (apologies but I don’t know which part of China exactly and I’m not educated enough around this).

I believe it’s important to look at the person within the Universal, the Cultural, and the Individual identity, not just one or the other.

There are universal elements that ALL human beings share - aging, pain, love, fear etc - then there are SOME people with certain responses to those universal experiences which are understood and acceptable within a certain group - cultural, eg wearing black at funerals or being very vocal when expressing pain etc - then there’s the individual response within any cultural group when it comes to universal experiences - how a person within their context is like NO OTHER human being eg someone can have Asian or European looks but speak another language that is not synonymous with their culture or belong to a religion that is not synonymous with their ethnicity etc

Person-centered approach is the best approach when we try to understand or get to know an individual and learn about their context and ways of coping with universal experiences.

[Quercus]

Hi Rob (and a wave to Donte),

I've been thinking about what you and Donte both wrote.

I think we are all guilty of causing offence through ignorance. You made a good point about people not meaning to cause harm.

Since marrying my husband and taking his surname I have experienced this somewhat. From Aussies I get... Where are you from? Oh you married a Polish bloke? Are you learning Polish? But from the Polish-Aussies they just start speaking Polish to me. Or I get why haven't you learnt Polish then? It does get irritating.

But it has also let me see from both sides. I think people are just trying to communicate. Sometimes it is attempts to make polite small talk. Other times genuine interest and curiousity. Sometimes people are just small minded jerks.

In any conversation people make a judgement and try guess what will make an easy conversation starter with you.

Appearance. Name. Nationality. Clothes. Occupation. Gender. You name it we are all guilty of it. These forums are interesting because I know if we all had photo avatars the responses would be different. It is just human nature to make judgements. I am guilty of this too.

These questions and comments are inevitable and people will not change overnight... so I agree with Donte. Have you found was to deal with the questions and comments?

Donte uses humour. I use confusion 😊.

What nationality are you?

Oh I'm Australian I just upgraded my surname when I got married.

Where is your husband from?

Well. He's Australian. Oh and Polish. Oh and and born in South Africa. Then shrug and walk away.

Or you could use hubby's response to if you don't mind being seen as a bit arrogant...

Where are you from?

Why do you care?

Generally when he says that people are taken aback. They say they were just curious or trying to be polite. But they never bother him again about his name or nationality.

Nat

[Donte]

Hello Quercus,

thank you for contributing to this very important thread. Yes, we all have found various ways of responding and coping when we are reminded that we are different.

The truth is we are only different ‘by comparison’ to the person who makes the remark no matter what their intentions are.

I’m interested to hear about the effect; the impact that this has in ones life.

Many internalize this ‘casual racism’ (to use Rob’s term), and I’m wondering how it may affect their mental health in the long run with an accumulative effect building up.

When something is repeated it gets embedded in ones brain. We tend to believe it as we are reminded about it and can accept it as our truth. The message is ‘you are not one of us’.

One of the complexies of human beings is that we are the only being that tries to be different, to stand out from the crowd, to be an individual etc and we talk about embracing diversity, however, on the same time we desperately try to either fit in or convince others to accept us or go to lengths to remind anyone who we might judge that they don’t fit in that they’re different. Such a paradox!

An analogy would be the various dogs playing in the park. They’re all dogs. But they’re all different breeds and shapes and sizes and colors etc.

I see how my toy poodle is instantly attracted to other oodles but avoids staffs or shepherds or huskies etc. I often see dogs of similar breeds mingle easier together. Why is that? It could be the particular smell they emanate. It could be size. It could be body language and looks etc.

The fact remains that some animals don’t like other animals from the same kind. I’m only comparing humans to dogs in order to understand and dissect common behaviors from an evolutionary point of view.

Sometimes I wonder if our likes or dislikes of certain attributes, mannerisms, characteristics such as accent, looks etc has a more primal base that defies human logic or consciousness.

Could it be that we are hard wired in a particular way through our evolutionary process as a species to act in certain ways? (My thoughts only after observing dogs in the park).

As dog owners, we always encourage various engagements between dogs and/or intervene and try to remove hem from potentially risky situations. But the fact remains that not all dogs like or accept each other. It’s a matter of trying to learn to behave and coexist in a manner that is safe and acceptable so all can enjoy the park! There’s enough space for all.

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Rob and all,

All I can say is “me to” in answer to your thread title. I don’t always know how to differentiate between the 2 either at times...where do we draw the line between the 2? I don’t know, it can be so circumstantial and it depends on the person...

kind thoughts,

Pepper

P.S. Donte’: if you look up academic articles/other info online on “generic closeness” and “next of kin”, you might find some interesting research that might help you out with your line of thinking 🙂

[Peppermintbach]

Sorry, I meant to write “genetic closeness” (not “generic closeness” lol). Sorry again.

Pepper

[Hayfa]

Hi Nat and everyone,

What an interesting conversation, Nat I agree with you when you say "Appearance, name. nationality.....human nature to make judgements..."
Ever so true, I have witnessed this all throughout my life too, I am a child of migrant parents and I have been in Australia since the age of two. When I am with my husband is who has been here for 25 years and has a very heavy accent (we still joke around and call him 'fresh of the boat'), people hear him talk and then hear my Australian accent and ask 'but how did you two meet' or ' where are you originally from because you look ethnic'.

Let me tell you a story about my experiences of how people judge and treat people based on what they see in front of them....so I have owned a family restaurant with my husband for the last 12 years, on a Friday and Saturday night I can be found behind a pizza bar-fridge, wearing a cooking apron, head down topping pizzas and flipping pastas in a hot pan over an eight burner stove...phones ringing non-stop, kitchen filled with cooks and pandemonium equivalent to Gordon Ramsey's Hells Kitchen minus the swearing (sometimes)....Customer comes in, maybe jovial, happy, maybe complaining over the wait times, so you can imagine the type and tone of conversation at me. Oh..wait a minute, a new conversation takes place, somehow I mention where I work by day or that I used to work in PR or my previous job was a clinical trial researcher...Lo and behold....their tune changes, their look changes...the conversation changes.

I think it has always unfortunately been that stereotyping and judging mentality in human nature, I don't think it is intentional and I think it is just how we have evolved as part of our growth experience. Perhaps being the diverse country that we have become has made people all the more intrigued.

Hayfa

[Donte]

Thank you Peper!

Will do.

X

[Quercus]

Hi Rob,

I hope you don't feel excluded by your own thread! It just shows you've created a topic people are interested in but we really do want to hear what you think and feel if you feel able to write again.

I think Pepper and Donte and Hayfa all make important points don't you?

It is curious to me that a lot of the emotions evoked being judged based on nationality are very similar to how we feel being judged generally. For example when I speak to a tradesperson and they tell me to ask my husband to call so they can explain. I'm a woman not an imbecile. The judgement hurts just as much.

I like how Donte talks about judgements being embedded in how we see ourselves. Again I don't think this is unique to multicultural experiences. But I do appreciate that is what this section is for 😊.

I often wonder if the problem lies more within us?

Why are we vulnerable in the first place to care what a someone thinks of us? Shouldn't we care more about what the people we value think? Or what WE feel?

I think putting energy into fighting what others say is futile. There will always be people who judge by your nationality.

My psychiatrist says a lot if you are hoping to change what others think you're setting yourself up for failure. You can only control YOU.

So I do see it as vital that you find a way to let the comments slide off you. I'm not saying ignore or accept the comments but to not allow them to influence your sense of self. How? Any ideas?

I would say respond with enthusiasm. That always seems to throw people.

For example...

Your English is good

Smile brightly (even better is laugh) and reply happily...

You'd hope so seeing as it's my native tongue (doesn't matter if that's true).

Then change the subject. Shut down that line of conversation.

I've seen people do that before and it tends to shut down the line of questioning that is making you uncomfortable.

Nat

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Rob and all,

Rob: as Nat kindly suggested, if you’re still reading, please feel free to chime in at any point with your own thoughts 🙂

Donte’: you’re most welcome. Hi Hayfa xoxo

Nat: Thank you for sharing your insight. That is certainly a thought provoking angle and it’s great how you were able to look at things from a different angle 🙂 wonderful points.

I must admit that personally, I feel one key difference between judging people based on their racial background (compared to a lot of other things) is our ethnicity is something that is 100% beyond our control i.e. none of us “chose” our ethnicity and we can’t change it either. It was assigned to us at birth.

Theoretically, I can change where I live, I can change jobs, etc, etc but I can’t change my ethnicity. I’m not saying it’s okay to judge or discriminate based on those things (e.g. job, etc) but I’m saying those things can be changed in theory. Of course I realise the practicality of it might be another story...I’m not suggesting we should ”change” who we are for others’ sake but my point is ultimately about how ethnicity is with us for life. We can choose to identify with it or not but it’s still in our genes.

That being said, I get what you’re saying about how building resilience and personal confidence plays a role. Yes, I agree those are important points that would help a lot of people. Excellent points 🙂

Although I feel the issue with suggesting to people that they can use clever quips to defend themselves is the command of the English language varies so much between individuals. After all, assertiveness skills aside, some people struggle with English because they recently arrived in Australia (or for other reasons) and may lack the language skills to defend themselves.

For example, much of my extended family wouldn’t be able to defend themselves against certain remarks (or educate/enlighten others about) about their cultural background in English. Some of them struggle enough to communicate with the employees at the local supermarket, let alone be able to defend themselves against certain comments or articulate their experiences well enough so people can understand the depth of their pain.

Anyway, great points and it’s good to see how you can approach this issue from a different angle. Great to hear your perspective 🙂 xoxo

Pepper