Becoming emotionally numb...

[PrincessMilktea]

I'm beginning to lose my emotions, or at least, the intensity of my emotions have declined. I have no life passions/motivations and this didn't bother me so much before, but recently after some existential angst/depression (where I've logically concluded that life is ultimately meaningless for reasons too long to share here) I've become less and less motivated to continue functioning like normal. I'm currently 17 and I see no point in pursuing a degree in economics anymore (I only chose this subject out of mild interest that isn't deep enough to be called a passion) and now I am more or less going through the motions of this prosaic existence but no longer find myself feeling any satisfaction or even dissatisfaction. Occasionally I get a dull ache in my chest because I find everything is unstimulating/predictable/boring and I have tried therapy, but my therapist doesn't know what to do with me after I explained my reasons for being a nihilist.

I believe that my nihilism wouldn't be a problem if I at least had some pleasurable activities I could partake in regularly, but nothing (that I can reasonably do at my age/budget) so far has given me pleasure and I can only assume that drugs/alcohol will help. Obviously I'm aware that this is unhealthy, and so I'm leaning towards something less harmful like antidepressants, however I can't access the prescription and money for this because I don't want my parents to know I'm depressed/anhedonic. Before you advise me to tell them, just know that they are from a somewhat "backwards thinking" culture that doesn't understand mental illness and depression very well, and will probably find it a burden or cause for stress if they have to deal with me. This is not because they don't care, but because they don't understand it and I'd rather not have to placate them when I barely know how to deal with it myself. I also have insomnia, and the last time I tried to explain it to them, it caused me a lot of anxiety and upset because I couldn't communicate to them in a way they could comprehend. I'd be grateful for some advice (and yes I do have a stable social life, I do normal teenage girl things like going to the movies and attending parties, however I'm almost always faking my excitement and honestly feel nauseated from being around other young people. I feel most isolated/lonely when I'm in a crowd as opposed to being alone because I feel like our differing life views just punctuates my social insularity further).

[Dorian_Gray]

Hi Princess Milktea,

Seems you have already done everything I could suggest! Obviously you’re highly organised.

How have I survived for this long, well firstly I had the belief that I would find the meaning and purpose I lacked once I finished high school, then when I finished uni, then when I got a job… such milestones didn’t solve the issue but kept me motivated. Then in a long term relationship I had with a Lady I found something I truly enjoyed and was motivated to keep her happy…admittedly almost obsessively…but the nihilism didn’t go away even then and it multiplied the normal grief effects into depression when it ended...nonetheless that was/is the thing I enjoyed the most and seek again.

Interim measure is a steady stream of novelty, trying different sports, indulging my intellectual curiosity, devouring books, movies and games. Fortunately there is always more to learn so whilst I know it doesn’t matter, I find a brief excitement associated with novelty a motivator, hence my suggestion. I also find how one relates to one’s nihilistic views changes with one’s experience, its intense as one first comes to that position, and one is always aware of it, but it’s not always so overwhelming, it especially changes as one starts to work.

Motivation can be gotten around by exploiting our biological preferences for habitual behaviour, force yourself to do something long enough and it becomes an unthinking habit (e.g. I did this for running every night and other chores). An alternate motivator might be to consider where you don’t want to end up in the future and be motivated to avoid those outcomes.


I would also advise to try and keep in some social circles, perhaps realign to preferred people, even if it feels tiresome, just being around people does have benefits due to our social instincts, take it from me, nihilism + isolation is a bad place to be and compounds problems. If you haven't already check if some of your friends have similar thoughts. I hope things improve for you and you find something that can content you, take what little pleasure you can from where you can.

[White_Rose]

Hello Princess

I started a post to you yesterday, got called away and then logged out forgetting to post my reply first. Sorry.

We were talking about uni (amongst other things) and I wondered, given your interest in Nihilism and I presume associated writers , why not take an undergraduate degree in philosophy? It seems to me to tick your boxes with an interest Nihilism, needing like minded people to discuss matters of interest, perhaps an interest in broadening your philosophic knowledge and a degree that you can use in several directions.

Happiness is a fleeting emotion. We are not meant to live on the mountain top in a rarefied atmosphere. We are meant to struggle and achieve. It's the knowledge of these achievements that can bring happiness but we move on. When I was watching QI a while ago I discovered Bhutan is a country that measures the Gross National Product in happiness. I have no idea what they use to decide on happiness, but it's interesting.

To go back to Frankl, he believes that those who have a reason for living, something that makes them want to live, are those who survived the concentration camps. Clearly many died who had this will to endure because they had no choice. It was interesting to read his description of those who gave up on life and how quickly they died. Two or three days I think and everyone recognised the signs.

So if someone can find a reason for living in those conditions surely we should manage given the standard of life we have. Or perhaps not. If you have everything what more do you want or can you have? If you are protected from life and all that may go wrong, what indeed is the incentive to challenge yourself? It seems the early death rate of nihilists bears out his theory. I believe Shakespeare had a few pithy comments on this subject.

It seems to me that distant education is full of pitfalls, especially for the senior student. This is a time when you need to thrash out the meaning of life, so to speak. When all your effort is directed inwards it's hardly surprising you feel lost and unemotional. Who is there to blow that flame into life? I know in isolated communities this is the best they have. Even in these places there is an urge to question life with others. I think this is one of the reasons these parents send their children to boarding school, at least for their high school years.

I think my post of yesterday was more purposeful but I do hope it has given you some food for thought.

Mary

[PrincessMilktea]

Hi James,

I also considered traveling the world (obviously when I have the wherewithal for it), to be a good way to "find myself". I think travelling is a universal fix to anyone's problems to be honest, I've never met someone who didn't come back as a better version of themselves after travelling. A change of scenery really seems to refine your perspective.

And Neverwinter Nights sounds interesting, may give that a try 🙂

[PrincessMilktea]

Hi Dorian Gray,

I understand your motivation that "meaning will come after X event happens" has worked for you and that your obsession with a Lady has kept you happy, but sadly I am not able to do the same. For me, love and other life objectives are simply a means to an end, not an end unto itself. What I mean by that is, for instance when you brush your teeth every morning and have a shower everyday you do this because it is a means to an end (being clean), however the act itself isn't particularly appealing or enjoyable. It is simply something you must do.

Similarly, love, hobbies, work are all things we must do, but for me, these things are not attractive per se, they are simply a continuation of events that must be completed to reach the end (death). I believe this is an abnormal problem I have (the loss of pleasure from otherwise pleasurable things; ergo anhedonia), and hopefully I can overcome it soon. I am sorry for plaguing you with issues that seem to leave us at an impasse, but just so you know talking about it has helped me understand it better, so your efforts have definitely helped. Thank you.

Also I took your advice about keeping a social circle today by hanging out with my friends. I admit, this feels a lot better than being alone with my nihilism, they served as a much-needed distraction. However as soon as I got home, the nihilistic thoughts I had put behind me returned, packing twice the punch and in the end I had to sleep it off to feel myself again. I will do as you advise and try to make socialising a habit, hopefully I will feel good enough to deal with this negativity to the point where it no longer happens.

[PrincessMilktea]

Hi Mary, to be honest a degree in philosophy doesn't leave many appealing career options to choose from, especially since I would rather lean towards careers that pay well, though I very much appreciate how much thought you're putting into this. As for happiness, I believe what you're saying is basically "it's the journey, not the destination that matters" and while I once completely agreed with this view, that struggling is essential to achieving happiness, my problem is that even the struggle is ultimately meaningless if the destination is unsatisfactory to the traveler.

I do not believe that mediocrity is a convincing existence to have, thus I have no desire to "struggle" to achieve this mediocrity despite myself. If you would like to understand the reasons for my unconvinced state (or nihilism in this case), you can read a short piece by Thomas Nagel called "The Absurd", which encapsulates everything I'm unable to explain here.

[White_Rose]

Hello Princess

Just managed a quick search on Nagel with a couple of summaries of his philosophy. One ended with this summary.

Summary – Life has no objective meaning and there is no reason to think we can give it any meaning at all. Still, we continue to live and should respond, not with defiance or despair, but with an ironic smile. Life is not as important and meaningful as we may have once suspected, but this is not a cause for sadness.

Does this summarise your belief? It seems to me that in my admittedly brief reading Nagel is not particularly saying life is pointless. Rather he seems to be saying there's nothing to make a fuss about in the present because nothing will matter in the future, although he agrees we really cannot say that because we have no knowledge of the future.

It appears to me that we do now does have an effect on the future. We are consciously shaping the future, albeit with many disagreements and far too many wars. It also seems to me that you are not devoid of ambition or desire. You are seriously considering completing a degree in economics because you believe this will give you access to a high paying job. This is not simply a means to an end, i.e. having cash, but an end which means you cab use this money to travel etc So you have a dream, a raison d'être. So how can you be devoid of feelings?

As for happiness, I believe what you're saying is basically "it's the journey, not the destination that matters" I did not say happiness was the destination. We may be happy we have reached or attained a desired event which allows to sit back for while and smile.

You stated, in effect, that travel broadens the mind and the returnee has gained access to themselves, a state of being you want to achieve. It is the exposure to different lifestyles, customs, beliefs and so forth, but you can also do this in your neighbourhood if you try. So why do you think you have no feelings, or that this is only triggered when you are alone. You enjoyed the company of your friends yesterday and you intend to do this regularly. Fantastic. And you have a goal or two, get a well-paid job and travel the world. At this moment do you need any further incentive?

Can you stop analysing life and simply live it? Mix with your friends frequently. Take an interest in their lives and how they feel. Do any of them have problems they would like to share but hold back in case no one else wants to listen?

Mary

[james1]

Hey PrincessMilktea,

Being 25 and incessantly self-conscious and philosophical - I did a major in Philosophy in my Economics degree - I can understand the almost compulsive desire to understand the why, and to create a world view for yourself, and perhaps even see what others feel and think about it. After all, I was gearing myself up for a career as an academic either in Philosophy or Economics, so it's just part of who I am.

But Mary also has a good point in needing to stop every now and then, and just live life.

If you like, think of it as data collection. You have a view about how activities are means towards some improvement in the various skills, which may allow you to do more of that, but the end result is death, i.e. a discontinuation of everything. Therefore, they are all a means to an end.

Test that.

Try and prove it correct by proving the alternative to be false. Try and live in the activities themselves without this theory, and see if it just comes back to the theory, or if there are activities which you find have some value beyond another step towards the inevitable.

You can always come back to the theory, but the challenge is to depart from it temporarily.

It's how I go about things anyway. Suspend belief for a while. I'm not wholly convinced, but I've had moments where I was literally in wonder and would be disappointed to have lived and not seen. And that's value that extends beyond being a means to an end.

James

[PrincessMilktea]

Thanks for the response James, a lot of my reply to your other statements can be interpreted in my reply to Mary, just so you're aware.

"You can always come back to the theory, but the challenge is to depart from it temporarily."

This challenge and I have some bad blood between us. No matter how hard I try, my analytic brain will override any suspension of disbelief I employ. I have often given the same advice to myself, but it's like turning off who I am; a very analytical/logical person. Like I mentioned above to Mary, I will keep trying and will not give up anytime soon because despite the impression I must've given, I genuinely want to achieve this "happiness" even if I understand it to be ultimately meaningless. I've also noticed that you termed the experience as "value" rather than "meaning", and I'm very glad you've made that distinction because its one I can understand and relate to.

[PrincessMilktea]

"So you have a dream, a raison d'être. So how can you be devoid of feelings?"

This is not my dream. I am not passionate about having money or travelling, the same way you cannot call someone passionate if they like the taste of sushi and thus decides to save a few extra dollars to buy a sushi roll. Sushi is great and all, and I certainly like eating sushi, but this fondness for sushi does not automatically equate to having a passion for sushi. I will not work an extra three hours overtime to buy more sushi, I will not earn a degree in Sushiology if it means I can have an infinite supply of sushi. My life is not suddenly meaningful because I eat sushi. If sushi ceased to exist, my life would not suddenly be devoid of meaning, because sushi is not my raison d'être. Money and travelling is nice, but it's not something I particularly feel seriously inclined to achieve, it's just something I'm doing because the alternative is worse.

"I did not say happiness was the destination."

You struggle to overcome challenges, and when this challenge is conquered you feel "happy". Therefore; challenge = journey, happiness = destination. You will continue this finite chain of struggle and reward to keep your brain happily absorbed with dopamine for the remainder of your existence. You call this "meaning" I call this "tiresome".

"So why do you think you have no feelings"

Because I'm beginning to have less and less interest/feelings for friends and emotional events. I still enjoy them, but not the same way as I used to. This is deeply alarming for me, and I'm depressed that I can't feel as emotionally involved as I'd like to. I'm even beginning to think this pattern will continue in the future and simple joys like eating and listening to music will also start to wane.

"Can you stop analysing life and simply live it?"

I am trying. I am seeking out a way to procure antidepressants so I can motivate myself long enough to earn a degree and a job. It's okay Mary, I will find a way to achieve this, this thread was started because I needed some ideas/advice, and you'll be pleased to know that if worse comes to worst, I'll take your advice and let my parents know so that I can get the antidepressants even at the expense of some anxiety. I never really intended to justify my nihilism nor assert it onto others, I merely mentioned it to give people some context on where I was coming from.

[james1]

Hey ,

No problem. I get it and I'm glad you've articulated that you will keep trying. It took me a darn long time and there are parts of me now which I still struggle to "turn off". I try to see it as adding a new dimension to myself rather than ignoring "me" but I guess it's just a slow process.

I know it's a little while away, but if you decide to go to university next year, I think you'll find there will be a lot more people who are more...well, you'll find more people you can relate to. School is quite insular whereas university has so many more people. It could still take a while, but you will find people with whom you can have interesting conversations with.

A lot of my beliefs changed as a result of uni, or even were confirmed, but it's a really good place for learning if you're open to talking to lots of different people and seeing what drives them.

In the meantime though, you've got a safe space here if you need a bit of support. It can be super hard to continue sometimes when the tunnel looks like it just drops away, but I do think that we may as well walk it together rather than alone.

James