Disowning relatives

[white knight]

10 years ago I turned 58yo and forcibly retired from work due to MH issues. I needed to regroup, put myself, my daughter and my wife ahead of- everyone. Like many I had a toxic family that ranged from borderline PD to bipolar to anxiety and the dreaded narcissism. Having my own bipolar, anxiety and high functioning autism (recent revelation), I was not much different to my blood relatives except for the narcissism.

Ok, that said I decided to give some relatives one last chance which fed my need to not hold any guilt in the future by rash decisions.

There is the hard and the easy way to cope with rejecting relatives. With previous attempts when younger I'd crumble at the thought, then crumble again when I grieved for them, so I had become a boomerang family member. When I returned to my family the narcs were happy not to talk about what the issue was, to resolve so recurrence didnt happen, so again and again it repeated.

But something changed at 58yo. I decided a few things-

• that blood relatives no longer automatically had my presence, that I had the right to reject them for a peaceful existence.
• that seeking stability I needed to ensure I didnt have unstable people in my life, that I was to create my own "more" stable world
• that my wife should no longer carry the burden of my family upsets when she had come from a stable upbringing
• that 58 years was long enough and if I was lucky enough to last another 25 years that I could choose then to mould those years into happier times

The above decision making says it all and I've gradually found peace from family problems. Yes, the occasional relative I still have in my life will call and ask if they can mediate and I politely decline. Those calls are examples of the triangulation from rejected family members.

Do I miss them- oh, yes, but the cycle would return if I allowed them back in. My family ensured that guilt was a major weapon so I know my guilt especially that my 93yo mother is still alive, would eat at me. But alas, if I visited her after so many years I know the guilt would be her priority then she'd haunt me from her grave. 

Troubled people have to build a world around themselves and only issue passes to those that either understand or have a level of loyalty that you feel safe with. 

These are desperate situations, suicidal thoughts, attempts, suffering through rage and comments from despicable people. Being blood does not mean you are a punching bag.

If thats you then untie the rope, let that bag drop...

TonyWK

[randomxx]

Thanks a lot Tony have done. Cheers

[randomxx]

l don't know if anyone will return here but a hi to all if you do, l've had it in favorites.

Another sister thing , l have 6 of them , yep, how could l have been so cursed, l know.

Actually 3 or 4 aren't too bad there's just two main ones and l have talked about this one somewhere.

2 Christmas no less, calls in the last 3 yrs both being the maddest calls l've ever gone through. l blocked her after the last try.

Well she's been back from interstate a yr or so and has fights with everyone and says all kinds of bs and l also seem to be a target. l mean she sounds and acts as if she's losing her mind tbh , some of the stuff l hear , and that she's gone on about in calls.

Haven't bothered a yr or so now, l was done. But l'm still hearing stuff , not only about me, all kinds of crazy rubbish, even almost getting my brother into a fight at a pub over her having some mad fight there with some guy she didn't even know. But stuff about others, and me too.

Well, it made me literally feel sick to even go there at this age with a sister that's just letting herself go of the rails, and at our ages, later 50s.

Just to skim told her everyone hears everything of all her stuff and things she says and of her fighting and causing trouble , her mad texts to people, they hear about it all.

l said you know, you have two choices in life, we've all been through stuff but you can either let it send you mad or you can choose to move on from it, and choose happiness. life is short but you choose to be miserable and to try making everyone else that way too.

Told her too l refuse to do toxic and a few other things, it was longer than that  bc she goes right back and it's complicated .

But there won't be anymore, nor calls, unless she doesn't something about herself.

lt made me sick to even go there again and it'll be the last time. l haven't even seen the woman in 4 or 5 yrs but l heard yet even more stuff, again,  only a few days ago- it was too much.

rx

[Eagle Ray]

Hi rx and everyone,

I understand you getting to that point with a sibling. When toxic stuff keeps coming up sometimes the only thing to do is stay away from them (both physically and psychologically). You are so right that life is short and it’s a waste to keep being caught in negative patterns. If only your sister could see that and embrace life.

I was drawn to this thread as I feel I’m currently facing losing my brother. He’s my only immediate family left. He’s been with an extremely toxic partner for over 6 years who has acted out in abusive ways in the past. She can’t stand my brother giving attention to anyone but her. Following our mother’s death 4 years ago she became particularly abusive, even on the actual day mum died. She wanted to control everything. She couldn’t stand my brother spending any time with me even though it was logical for us to spend some time together given our mother had just died. After an incident where she screamed relentless rageful abuse at me for a long time, even after I just collapsed on the ground because I was in shock, grief and exhaustion, I made a decision to have no further contact with her.

Well in the last few days my brother is trying once again to get her back into my life. He invited her and himself to stay with me without asking. I felt like I was being railroaded. It was obvious by my response over the phone that I was uncomfortable with this. Today he rang to say they won’t visit soon now. But he keeps trying to push her back into my life. It’s like a social embarrassment to them that there is an estrangement. I know she is an extremely toxic person to have in my life so I’m not allowing it.

My brother was brought up to think he’s important. Mum put him on a pedestal while always denigrating me and saying you need to be more like your brother. She would tell everyone about his achievements at length and how wonderful he is. But when the same friends and family would ask about me she would say, “she’s alright” dismissively and have nothing more to say. So my brother grew up with a narcissist streak and is now in a relationship with a malignant narcissist.

I’ve reached a point where I need to communicate some hard truths to my brother. He needs to understand the impact of his behaviour. I’ve always protected him since childhood because I was taught his feelings and emotions were more important than mine. But it’s really bad for my health to continue being so tolerant of him, including when he behaves selfishly. So I’m going to have a conversation where I lay out my feelings and it’s up to him to either step up and have an emotionally real conversation or not. If it means total estrangement then that is what is going to have to happen. It’s heartbreaking but I am doing the wrong thing by myself if I don’t communicate what I need to. He is extremely emotionally avoidant and even being with his current partner is part of that. She doesn’t care about emotions and seems to have only one herself - anger. I have never seen an ounce of warmth or human kindness in her.

Effectively they want to manipulate me into their world for the sake of appearances. My brother does have a sensitive side and that is how she manages to manipulate him. Then he is sucked into her vortex. It’s so mess up. In the last few years my brother and I have maintained a sort of distant relationship but it’s become too unhealthy for me to continue as it is.

Thanks Tony for the thread and the opportunity to discuss these issues. I understand why you’ve protected yourself in your situation.

ER

[white knight]

Hi ER

Great post. I understand fully of course. I'd like to discuss one portion of it as a sort of brainstorming the portion.

Re: "I’ve reached a point where I need to communicate some hard truths to my brother. He needs to understand the impact of his behaviour. "  We all differ so take my thoughts as a complete option. I take the view that if someone really needs a reality check, why should I take the place of the "educator". I prefer to simply drift away and if my sibling ever took the time and made the effort to seek out reasons for me being distant- they can contact me and ask. The explanation is that even if you spell it out, you'll be against him or against his wife, neither criticism will be swallowed easily. And the substance of your "talk" to him will get back to her immediately and the feud could escalate. The ideal result would be for him to confront his wife and seek changes, all unrealistic IMO- it wont happen because it needs a personality change from her and a solid stance by him.

Your brother is similar to my dad (dec) and his wife is not far off my mother. All his life he was manipulated. As much as I loved him/adored him, he was a door mat and weak. She made the decisions not them. One time in my life I broke away from them before I had my 1st child. At the same time I fought Government corruption on a minor scale and proud as I was fighting for what was right, I lost my job in a kangaroo court. When I finally met my dad alone to discuss a reunion he told me "you had a good job and you threw it away". It was my mother speaking through him. I stood up and berated him, tears fell freely. "How dare you judge my actions against corruption, how do you know what its like to be told to give preferential treatment to a politician?". I was extremely angry. So I eventually agreed to visit mother and when I arrived she immediately said "well its all over now back to normal"... she shut me down so I couldnt discuss the matters, no resolution.

Domineering people dont change their spots. My guess is that your brother will become the victim of his wife one day, then he'll realise what its like for everyone else. Then you might get your brother back.

A spouse that is a stand over type doesnt change their nature.

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/accepting-yourself-the-frog-and-the-scorpion/td-p/1...

TonyWK

[Eagle Ray]

Thank you Tony. I think my wanting to talk with him is allowing things to be spoken that were always suppressed to protect his feelings. But I understand what you are saying, that it could make things worse. His partner is extremely malicious and he shares everything with her. I know anything I try to communicate to him will be distorted by her in a manipulative way. It’s happened before where I’ve had a reasonable conversation with my brother and we seem to be understanding one another. Then he talks to her and suddenly my intentions have been twisted by her into something they’re not and she’s managed to turn my brother against me. I’m then subjected to gaslighting and unkind comments.

What is on my brother’s side is honesty. Both of us have an inability to lie. So when he says something hurtful and judgemental it’s because she’s messed with his head in a way that he starts to really believe what she’s saying. She’s deliberately divisive and trying to create a fracture.

I guess with my brother I’ve been in a particular pattern my whole life and I want the pattern to change. The pattern is based on the different ways we were raised. In talking to him I wanted to have a balanced discussion about that. There is a glimmer of possibility that that could work, but it’s his partner in the background who is going to mess it up. It’s so depressing but as you say there is possibly nothing I can do. He will either wake up to her true nature one day or not. I’m thinking it might be literally at the very end of his life where certain emotional realities that he’s always avoided will hit him. He describes himself as emotionally avoidant so he knows he is this way, so it’s like he can’t bring himself to acknowledge things and blocks them instead and really believes the version of reality that he currently feels safe with (anything that allows him to not have to feel).

I think for me I have not had a voice in the past. My voice was obliterated as a child. So wanting to speak with my brother is wanting to have a voice. But perhaps I don’t need to try to speak to him. I just need to speak to a compassionate witness who can hear me and then I am no longer silent with things I have struggled with.

I can see how your dad was trapped and used manipulatively by your mum. It’s awful isn’t it. I think whatever I do I have to look for the option that protects myself from further harm. So perhaps drifting away as you suggest is a better option and it’s up to my brother if he wants to understand why I’m drifting. I’ve sort of been drifting away already anyway. I’ve been through the ringer in so many ways and I need as little stress as possible in my life going forward.

Thank you kindly for your thoughts Tony.

ER

[randomxx]

Hi there ER ,Tony and all.

Er thx for all that and with your sitch also.

That is a tricky one but l know exactly how you feel between that rock and hard place and to be just wanting peace . l'm a peaceful guy yaknow, decided many moons ago in life that's the way l wanted it. l saw the damage it did to me allowing myself to get too highly strung bc l did have that edge and l knew it.

l also saw first hand what happens to you when you do allow it to take over and take yourself especially,too seriously,  but also with life in general too and as well as things happening in the world, that will always be happening whether they let themselves go insane argue over it all non stop, or not. l chose to not.

The way your brother was protected, know exactly what you mean. This sister, we've all always known she had deep rooted stuff with mum, but also the tenancies to manipulate , sneaky, back stab and bs through her teeth basically. Myself though , l was always soft on her and over looked her stuff, she was always good to me but l also got along with mum really well too and saw how all that effected her, so l'd allow.

Since she's had a terrible run with husbands too,  l love her kids, ldk, just saying and so l've allowed and over looked.

But you know, people with her tenancies don't usually realize your over looking them, they think they've put the wool over you. So ya gotta watch that too. l know she thinks that she just doesn't know l've always seen through her but l just allow.

Seems l didn't do myself any favors though doesn't it when they end up taking it as an easy mark.

lt's like your brother all over only in a different subjective. He's spoiled basically like she's been bc most of the families over looked her stuff too and ahh, it's just L, we know what she's like but her mum stuff, man run and bla bla , let it go we've all got our own lives. Bloody ridiculous that it's even entertaining any headspace really isn't it. Lik your brother he'd be well aware, but probably not so much of his own side in it though , like sis, they grow up a bit warped don't they from any favors.

Seeing Tony's views though, l kind of agree but then l've gone against that myself too. Bloody hell she's had 2 mad ph calls , one warning text afterward to just cut the bs or l'm done, but now l messaged her with the above. This is over 5yrs or so though and l have seen her in that time and face to face she's been great. She's a great girl when she's not causing trouble. Kind as anything and always really good to me, great to talk too- mostly the other reason l always over looked- it's like a behind your back thing though later it's crazy.

Now l wish l didn't bother though bc Tony has a bloody good point, wth should l be the one to educate her and l don't usually bother with others- but her shyt is messing with my peace but her is also spreading lies. Seems l hardly see most of the family to straighten anything out, ldk. Plan was to hopefully hit the nail itself on the head instead ha and appeal to her good sides , like your bros honesty ha, probly backfire though with her- these people are masters in just turning everything around aren't they eh.

Also been worried for her kids though too she drinks has crazy fights with people right in front of them has done for yrs.They've been through her horrible breakup with their dad, lotta stuff.

Your brother, l sort of agree with Tony in most ways myself, sort of wish l let it go in a way but l sure get your hopes and views too God knows l know what your going through.

And this is it too isn't it , majorly , we need to protect ourselves too jesus l've been though all kinds of crap myself too last 10yrs and no doubt you have too.

ldk, some things in life are a no brainer right but this stuff.???????????????????

Take care

rx

[randomxx]

PS, actually l forgot, she did send me a happy bdy 6mths later after those calls and my message, took it as a peace offering.Didn't reply though.

That prob set her off again, God knows.

[white knight]

ER and Rx

So, how dfid I get to this definitive problem solving ability? After all, drifting awayu from your family member regardless of past lifelong conflict still isnt easy right?. Well it began when writing poetry for victims of crime. Parents of two adult children I had written to for many years, a way of soothing their pain. The mother became a lifelong friend and mother figure. I realised she was a far better mother than my own. I then semi adopted her as my mother figure. 

My sister 2 years ago became toxic, demanding, triangulating etc just like my mother so had to break off all contact, but I have a female friend that is closer to me without any of those traits. Am I replacing my family members with others?- yes, yes, yes!! and it works. Family doesnt have to be blood and the more we struggle to keep toxic blood/in-laws in our lives the more unhappy we become in a desperate way.

You have control of your life. You do not need a toxic in law in your life for more than 2 seconds- the time it takes to civilly say "hello" at the supermarket but not latch eyes on them and continue on. And that hello isnt just being civil, it is to counter other well meaning family members that say "she told me she saw you at the supermarket and you didnt even say hello". But saying hello stops that. The only reason you go out of your way to say hello is to avoid more drama by other people bringing up the topic in conversation.

Another tactic- if drifting from family/in-laws, you will no doubt get other people bringing up the topic that you dont talk to so and so anymore. Try reversing the situation. EG. I had a friend of my mothers mention my no contact with her. I tactfully said "well I know where you are coming from, being concerned for me and all that, but, you'd appreciate that I dont discuss your relationship with your family members so let's leave it there... hows your son going". It stops them dead as you are placing boundaries on the topic immediately. 

Also, to truly move on and make these changes to your family structure, you have to move on 99%. 1% will be those times when you really need to talk to a close friend about the topic on your chest or you fall into that topic. The other 99% is truly not allowing the estranged relative/in-law to occupy space in your brain. This means developing some sort of callous attitude/judgement or introducing some personal arrogance. Describing it isnt easy as I'm not arrogant nor callous... its involves filling your life with happiness, hobbies, sport etc. Life is there to grasp. It's helped that we go on caravan trips, I build things, garden, write poetry for others including the local FB community page and my work here. When you have a full life every day it matures into a sort of - no time for crap people existence.

My only sibling, my sister in a family dispute 3 years ago manipulated her 2 daughters to take her side of the conflict as a weapon to hurt me. Sure it hurt- what she will realise one day when she tries an attempt to patch it up that I would be a fool to take chances. She would be banking on the fact she is my only sibling left and that is no reason to subject my mental health to such torture...

When balancing up toxic family, think of your last day in life looking back to those very happy times and ask yourself- were there enough of them? TWK

TonyWK

[Eagle Ray]

Hello rx and Tony,

Rx I get how it’s tricky with your sister. Like you I overlooked a lot of things with my brother. I allowed certain behaviours from him for so long without challenging any of it. Perhaps that’s what makes it so hard when we do try to change patterns. I guess in line with what Tony is saying, the best path might be the one that brings us the most peace. So perhaps handling them in a way that causes us as little hurt as possible. I’m starting to think just being philosophical about my brother may be the right approach. He is just the way he is. I’ve wanted the dynamic to change between us. If I can do it tactfully, it still may help to communicate some of my feelings regarding what my needs and feelings are as he has lived his life mostly oblivious to what is even happening for me. I have been with him through his dramas including major emotional breakdowns he’s been through but I’ve always dealt with my own situations alone. I don’t expect him to step up and start caring for me, but I do want him to stop imposing on me in ways that are stressful and expecting I will always go along with whatever he wants. Many times he’s asked for me to help and support him in various ways and I always have, but he can’t keep doing that while acting like my needs and feelings don’t exist. To be honest I think he and his partner have been surprised I’m holding my own boundary, especially in relation to her who I do not feel at all safe or comfortable with.

Thanks Tony, you are right - we have control of our life. It’s important to remember that and not be knocked about by others. My brother sent an angry text last night because he spoke to a cousin yesterday whose mum I told a long time ago about challenges with his partner. She’d asked me how I was so at the time I told her because I was having such a rough time and needed to confide in someone. I’d prefer she’d kept it confidential but she told her son who said something to my brother yesterday. It took a while to realise the text my brother sent me was a veiled angry threat because I’d disclosed my experience with his partner. But what else was I supposed to do? I certainly couldn’t have a real conversation with him at the time and I needed some kind of human support. It’s like my brother never sees that I was traumatised in that situation and only wants a narrative that glosses over the things he can’t face such as his partner’s disturbing behaviours.

I spent the morning in the local hospital as I’ve had a pain on my left side for days and the medical clinic told me to go there. I had ECG, bloods etc. Heart and lungs seem ok but seeing doctor on Thursday for blood results. I think I’ve been through more than I can take at times and my body is just packing it in. It really affects you feeling like you have no family. But I keep focussing on good friends who are my real family now.

I agree Tony that when we look back on our life we want to remember good experiences with good people. So it’s important to keep nourishing the healthy relationships. I’ve let go of several dysfunctional friendships and it is such a relief. It leaves more energy to give to the people I want to connect with.

Rx, I hope you can find a good way forward with your sister that involves minimal stress to you. Not always easy, I know. I really hope by taking the journey you’re on now that you find a meaningful way forward for you that nourishes you and that you find some positive experiences and connections along the way.

Many thanks again,

ER

[white knight]

ER

You have every right to confide in others about what concerns you and you cant have them on a leash to not spread those conversations.

I use facebook a lot for my motorcycle interests. I see that site as an example of freedom of expression, opinion and displaying my creativity. This week I am getting my machine back from my engineer, its a creation, a unique design of mine made into a 3 wheeler. So I posted pictures and of the 70 or so people that responded all but 2 rejected the concept and of course did so in a nasty manner. So how did I tackle those two abrasive people? An answer like this- "thankyou for your opinion which is an exercise of freedom that this site allows, in fact all democracies allow. Fortunately for me you are out numbered with so many seeing my vision, an exercise in creativity that will be carried out with my own earning, time, tools and with the support of so many here. Have a good day."

It is most effective to remind people that while their attitude and judgements are for them a basis of freedom, you have the freedom also to do as you please if it means seeking support or reassurance for a distasteful situation. People place guilt on others to supress them as a form of dominance to make them feel superior and/or to continue to power over you, to keep you in that little corner where they want you, like a kitten trying to escape. 

That is exactly how my mother and sister behaved. More importantly, 13 years ago it was my mother that threatened to ruin my second wedding. In 1985 she successfully ruined my 1st wedding and in the last minute I allowed her to attend only to pay a price of being white anted all night. So when my sister and I decided to disconnect from her we both vowed we'd never do the same actions. It took my sister 11 years before she'd carbon copy the triangulations and manipulations hence I had to again put myself first. 

Some people can limit contact with their estranged relative- good for them. Some can tolerate a once a year xmas gathering even a hello and 30 minutes later leave. But for others they cant, it generates a revival of the hurt and the topic of conversation going home goes from potentially about xmas and the kids smiles to how you escaped without further conflict... I know what I choose. But some relatives will complain about the atmosphere ongoing with keeping distant... to which out comes the fundamentals freedom and the priority of self protection. for they are out there- a good percentage of humans that dont deserve even eye contact.

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/relationship-and-family-issues/fortress-of-survival/td-p/216226

TonyWK

TonyWK