functioning family vs loving family for kids

[james1]

hello,

I am not entirely sure where to post this, but i thought i'd put it here as my own lens is coloured (aha! i made a pun!) by my chinese experience. i'd like to hear what people think.

none of the below is academically researched, just bits and pieces of what i've picked up in news and uni, so please feel free to dispute what i say 🙂

the divorce rate has increased over the decades, in large part due to western values shifting away from traditional family values towards a focus on individual happiness. one difficulty which I experienced, and which many others have experienced, is that divorce is really really difficult for kids. even separation is difficult for kids.

in my own chinese family, i think there is more of a focus on a functioning family rather than a loving family. if the family unit works, the people are expected to continue it. I am not entirely sure why, but I guess it is more practical. At least the child and family unit has certainty about the future and is stable.

so i guess i'm really just putting it out there - are we doing the right thing by choosing love over what 'works'? in many cultures, people are told who to marry and are actually happier in their relationship later on. especially when you consider the effect of divorce on children, are we creating a breeding ground for mental illness by following our hearts and not our minds?

I know we can do both, but all the rhetoric is to "go with your gut", "do what your heart says".

[Donte]

Hello James1,

Thank you for this thought provoking and relevant thread. Many people from various culturally and linguistically diverse communities can relate.

In my community, it used to be very similar to what you describe, (my grandparents generation). The baby boomers (my parent's generation) changed all that and for the better I believe. The divorce rate in Greece is equivalent if not higher with Australia. Less and less people marry nowadays (apart from the gays who seem to be the most interested in marriage). It is common for Greeks to remarry more than twice and/or live in de facto relationships and mixed families are the norm (where there are children from different relationships and previous marriages).

Since the early 80's in Greece we've had recognition of all religions as equal and civil weddings and defacto relationships are legal. also adultery has long being decriminalised. We are rapidly moving from a collectivist to an individualist culture which is very similar to the western societies.

Research indicates that it is far better for children to live with a single parent, or with step families, or even a group of adults or same-sex families, who love them and nurture them, and live harmoniously, rather than with the two biological parents who argue and are abusive or neglect them. As Hillary Clinton had said: 'It takes a village to raise a child.'

Children have very high IQs and can sense when things are not genuine. This has a long-term harmful effect in their mental health. Also, I don't think it is fair to teach them to compromise and live lives that are anything less but authentic. My truth matters like everyone else's and this is a powerful thing to be teaching our children. We are aloud. We can break the mould if it doesn't serve us and we shouldn't feel any guilt about it. - But this is my view and there is no right or wrong.

We are all individuals and do the best we can with whatever we have in our hands. No one can tell us what or how to do things as this is our choice and our reality.

Often also, the migrant communities in Australia can be more conservative than the countries of origin of these groups. This is because people in the early years of migration especially, tend to stick together out of fear of the unknown when in a foreign land and growth and integration and acceptance of new customs, norms and lifestyles can be hindered.

[james1]

Hello donte,

Thanks for the reply!

It is interesting to hear about your own culture's experience with that change from collectivist to individualist.

My own experience was in a dysfunctional relationship, so I certainly agree with you that separation would've been best. But I wonder about the cases where the parents did not love each other, but at least respected each other and could function as a family unit?

I know this is a big question with many ifs, and I am sure it is a case-by-case...but still I think it's an important one because we I am not entirely convinced that leaving behind collectivist attitudes makes for a better family environment.

If I had to choose between my mother's very strong family unit or my friend's "our parents told us to get a job at 16 and kicked us out at 18" I'd pick the former every time. Maybe her parents slept in separate beds because they didn't love each other, but the -family- loved each other and there sure wasn't any violence. They didn't love each other, but they loved their kids and their kids prospered (albeit perhaps sheltered...)

Anyway, I realise there is huge variation of course in both attitudes. it was just a thought that has been banging on in my mind for a while.

[Elizabeth CP]

I think tat ideally parents would love each other & love their children. The traditional strong loving family unit is the ideal. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the time were women stayed with their husband while experiencing abuse either for themselves or the children because thee was no alternative. I do think it is too easy to split up as soon as there is any problems. No relationship is perfect but I think children benefit from seeing their parents try to get through the tough times.

I can remember when I was about 13 my parents went through a difficult time with lots of arguments which was very upsetting to me. I was worried about them splitting up. Fortunately they were committed enough to stick together despite the tension. Later my dad was diagnosed & treated with a physical illness. There had also been other stresses in the family. We had lost everything in a bushfire earlier which caused financial pressures as well as the trauma of the fire. Over time things settled & my dad's health improved & the arguments stopped. Looking back I'm grateful my parents stuck together during that difficult time as they were happy supporting us & each other for the rest of their lives.

[Donte]

Hello James1,

It's a great conversation you have started and an important one. It is surely a case by case scenario. Even within the collectivist cultures each case differs. The same applies to the individualist cultures.

The majority of people care for and love their families and children no matter what the background. Often also, the majority of people are somewhere between collectivist and individualist no matter what the culture they are in.

My mum left from her family home when she was 12, escaping from an abusive environment and a violent alcoholic father! That was in the 60s in one of the Greek islands. So when I hear people carry on about the caring and loving Greek families, I smile...Stereotypes have never helped anybody or any situation.

There is a mythology that often is perpetuated by many that wants us to believe that collectivist cultures are caring and loving and nurturing etc. However, there is also the other side of the coin that is not often talked about: the abuse and violence, the discrimination and marginalization that takes place in those communities towards members who do not abide with the tribe, when one dares to be different and chooses to follow their individual truth.

Personally, I have been privileged to have left the collectivist mentality behind me from an early age, and to simultaneously have a very clear understanding of the way it operates and the plus and minuses of both systems. There is no perfection anywhere.

In regards to the 'kicking out children at the age of 16 etc', one could argue that this is also love and enables young people to become individuals, to make choices and to grow up and mature, learning to stand on their own two feet. It is tough love, but nevertheless is love. And it happens in nature in every other species as well.

I cannot accept that a person from a collectivist culture loves and cares for their children more or better, just because their custom is that the children stay at home until they marry.

There are benefits and negatives with both collectivist and individualist cultures.The biggest issue being when people are not given a choice. When the decision is made for them without their consultation and/or consent. then they are victims.

Ultimately nothing is right and nothing is wrong. That's my belief, but I'm a Gen X who grew up in the 80s in a huge city of six million people in my country of origin.

I am aware that I do not represent the ideas of all the millions of Greek people.

[Donte]

Hi Elizabeth (and James),

Thank you for your post.

I am glad your family experience has been positive overall and you have learnt from this. X

[Hayfa]

Hi James1 (and everyone else reading)

What a very thoughtful and important conversation you have started!
I agree with you and Donte' about these situations being different for everyone, however I do need to point out about your comment that collectivist cultures are a mythology perpetuated by many...I don't agree with this and I think that it could be argued that there may be more harm in renegading children to live in new families when their biological parents split up. There is a lot of literature stemming from real life crime investigations that have revealed some some children especially toddlers have been harmed by the partners of their biological parent.
We cannot know for sure either way if there is safety, love, nurturing etc in either individual or collectivist society, it depends on the people and the circumstances.

I think it is important to clarify 'collectivist culture' and 'functioning family unit'. Collectivist culture means many things, it can be viewed as having political, economic and social structures in the community and individual level. Functioning family is a family unit that can be in harmony on many levels, does it matter if two people are not living as a married couple but function well together and as a family unit? Perhaps the love and commitment as husband and wife has diminished but does that necessarily mean that they have no respect or love for one another?
There are many reasons why people remain together in a functioning family; security, support, children.. I don't think we can assume that just because some couples have decided to remain together as a functioning family that this is a facade that is more harmful than good.

I agree with you James and ElizabethCP, give me the functional family any day. I am not saying that this should be the case in families where abuse and outrageous, harmful situations have taken place.
In reference to the children being kicked out at 16, again this all depends on the situation, not every child who leaves home will be ready or able to learn responsibility and who said that if children don't get kicked out of home they won't learn responsibility?
We see this time and again especially in culturally diverse communities, the children particularly the eldest will become responsible and provide much support to their parents and families for years to come.
It would be nice to recognise the contributions of functioning families and their children rather than concentrate on the negatives.

Hayfa

[james1]

Hello elizabeth,

I totally agree with what you've said here: I do think it is too easy to split up as soon as there is any problems. No relationship is perfect but I think children benefit from seeing their parents try to get through the tough times.

One of my friends who never wanted to get married but just wanted to stay as life partners ended up getting married for this very reason. He believed that by getting married, it would present a barrier to making a split emotional decision since they would inevitably have arguments, and he believed that they were good enough a match to be able to work through issues. Time will tell if that's a good choice or not, but I thought it was at least the right sentiment - we can work through any issues we have.

Hello Donte,

Tough love is such an interesting topic. It works for some, it doesn't work for others. It reminds me a bit of the 'tiger mum' approach. There's usually no denying that the pressure put on the child to perform well is done out of love and a desire for the child to be set up for life...but does that work for everybody?

Even choice is a hard one! At what age should children be allowed to choose how they lead their lives? On what things?

My mother would never let me touch alcohol as a child. She was pretty fanatical about drinking even when I was an adult. My caucasian friend's mother let him have a sip of wine every now and then from 12, and wouldn't blink an eye if he went out for a blinder at 18.

But at the same time, my mother gave me almost no independence and freaked out once when I didn't reply (I was watching a movie), while my friend never had any of these issues.

I think these upbringing differences can lead to incredibly different perspectives as adults. I often have people who say they had similar experiences growing up and also had difficulties with their parents and that they understand me. But then they'll suggest a course of action with my mother which makes no sense (to me). So clearly, even if they were worked hard, there is a nuance that is missing and changes our views completely.

It can be so hard to really understand someone's perspectives without actually living their entire life

[Hayfa]

Hi james1

Apologies in my last post there was a typo, I meant that I did not agree with Donte's comment about 'mythology perpetuated by many about collectivist cultures being caring and loving...'

I certainly second what you have said in your last post though, yes it can be hard to understand someone's perspectives if you haven't lived like them. It can be a mistake to assume that someone is living in a difficult situation and circumstances if the person making that assumption has had a different experience.

One thing I will say, I understand what you mean when you provide the example of your mother and your friends advice of a course of action that makes no sense to you.
This has been much of the same experience in my life growing up, my friends would comment that my parents were strict and had no clue! Frankly, I used to find their comments offensive, I knew that this was my parent's way of teaching me about considering what could lead to harmful habits, I think many parents of culturally diverse communities just want to arm their children with as much good information as possible in the hope that at the right time in their age, they can make up their own mind. It makes sense that there should be a good balance in guidance and upbringing.

For a very long time and probably still, children of culturally diverse families have had to put up with a lot of comments and assumptions that there are things and ways of their situational lives that are either restricting or wrong. Time to cut us a bit of slack and let those of us who have no quarrels with how we were brought up be proud of the positive contributions this has made in our lives.

Hayfa

[Donte]

Hello Hayfa (and James and everyone reading),

Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread.

I agree with you that situations are different for everyone. No two people are the same. No two relationships are the same.

I would like to clarify that my experience is that there is a mythology perpetuated by many (inside and out of collectivist cultures) not that collectivist cultures do not exist, but rather that individuals within these collectivist cultures are more caring and loving and supporting towards their children and families, than individuals in individualist cultures...(This is the myth I am referring to).

I accept your point of view and personal preference. We are all aloud to believe whatever we like and express our beliefs - one of the positives of living in an individualist culture. The main thing is we all need to have a say. We need to be able to have a choice. And to act upon our choices.

My experience has taught me that the individual's choice is diminished in collectivist cultures and can suffer discrimination and marginalization; and the impact on mental health can be severe - something that cannot be ignored or not talked about.

It is not about being negative but rather calling a spade a spade. People do not need to agree in order to exchange ideas and beliefs. Facts are not based on neither though.

Research indicates that it is better for children to have significant others in their lives rather than just one single parent. Whether these people are biological parents or not, is irrelevant.

I guess we need to define what is 'functional' and what is 'family'.

I am all for personal choice and individual rights, something that seems to be more valued in individualist cultures. That is one of the main reasons I love living in Australia and have made it my home.

In reference to the children leaving home and at what age, of course each case is individual. There are benefits and disadvantages.

In my community we have numerous cases of elder abuse of all kinds, almost always perpetrated by the adult son who either still lives at home or has returned to live with the elderly parent. So not everything is as rosy as the ideal scenarios we often hear about.

I agree with you Hayfa, it would be nice to recognize the contributions of functioning families and their children despite the collectivist or individualist communities that they are a part off as nothing is ever black and white.

Let's keep on talking about this. 🙂