Isolation

[Rascally]

Hi All, hope you guys are OK. I'm very concerned for my adult daughter who is trying to fix things with me & my sister. My sister is a text book narcissistic & used every tactic to degrade & vilify me to all family friends. I tried to mend the relationship years ago, yet was met with more lies, deception & having her flying monkeys attack me for things I knew nothing about. Our last interaction I reacted so badly & lashed out, then was ashamed of myself for letting her bait me. I know this allowed her the confirmation to say I was the horrid person, once again. Her thinking is delusional & a twist of the facts so I remain the villain & she the victim. I'm so very worried for my daughter as we've now had a few arguments regarding my sister & my daughter refuses to hear why I feel the way I do. All I want is to state the truth of what's been done & said. I never want to talk bad about my sister to my daughter, just state the facts. My daughter refuses to hear it & I'm so worried my sister is using my daughter to continue playing the victim & me the villain.

For many years I ignored all the drama, got on with raising my children & worked hard. Still I had people attacking me over perceived wrongs to my sister. I used to defend myself & explain the facts, she'd then make up a bigger lie to cover it up.. it's so crazy. I just kept stepping back, stepping back & got on with my life. 

Now my daughter has changed her perception of me, I don't know what to do, we've always been so close. Yet my sister is a master manipulator.. it's actually scary..

Do I continue to pretend all is OK with my daughter? While being constantly concerned my sister is filling her head. My sister has a way of making a person feel so special, yet I've witnessed first hand how she'll cut that person down the moment they're not around & she laughs about it.

When it comes to my kids I will do anything to protect them, right now I'm stepping back in hopes my daughter will figure it out for herself. 

Another concern is the drugs & lifestyle my daughter will be exposed to with my sister. I've been called self righteous because I didn't want that in my & my children's lives. I've watched others being lured into this life by her & pay horribly..there is so much more, it's sordid & disgusting. 

HOW DO I NOT BE WORRIED ABOUT MY DAUGHTER????

[indigo22]

Hi Rascally,

I have a narcissist sister also, so I totally understand your situation with your sister.

I don't have any children myself but my sister turned her own children against me years ago. I made a decision when I moved 10 years ago to not tell her where I was moving to and have not needed to deal with any of them since. To clarify, her children were in their 30s last time I saw them, so adults old enough to make their own decisions, and they made the decision that I was to blame for everything that had gone wrong with theirs and their mother's lives. I have tried reasoning with them but they don't believe anything I say and have been very disrespectful toward me. I refuse to be treated with disrespect by them, so they no longer have access to me, simple as that.

With respect to your daughter - is she old enough to make clear decisions for herself? My suggestion would be to ask her why she would take the word of your sister over yours when you have always been so close. Ask if she has any evidence that you have lied to her in the past and, if not, why would you start now. Unfortunately, if your daughter cannot see reason or the truth, there is little you can do to force the issue. You may need to bide your time until your sister shows your daughter her true colours, which she is bound to do eventually, and be there to help your daughter when that happens. We only have control over ourselves, not others, so just show your daughter, by example, who can be trusted by no longer talking about or entering into arguments about your sister. Sooner or later your daughter will see that the only person stirring up trouble is your sister.

I hope this helps and please feel free to continue this conversation if you wish.

Take care of yourself,

indigo

[therising]

Hi Rascally

Being a mum, I can understand your concern for your daughter. It's an expression of love, for us to not want  our kids to feel what we have felt, when it comes to the behaviour of others. While we can only protect our kids so much from emotional pain or abuse, I think it's partly about arming them with the ability to sense or feel strategically. While you've had years to learn how to easily sense your sister's behaviour, it sounds like your daughter is still in the process of learning.

With you mentioning 'I used to defend myself & explain the facts..', I'm wondering whether you've also explained the emotions you've felt over the years. If your daughter's someone who has the ability to feel deeply and easily, she'll be able to feel or sense where you're coming from. For example, in speaking of your sister

• 'So many times she led me to feel what self doubt feels like, until I learned to trust my intuition and not her, which helped eliminate my self doubt'
• 'So many times I appointed her as someone I should trust and so many times she dis-appointed herself from being someone I could trust. I felt each disappointment and some of them felt heartbreaking'
• 'So many times I felt what 'being small' feel likes, with her leading me to feel such a thing. So many times I felt what 'being worth less' or 'worthless' feels like

Could always consider expressing 'The reason I've emotionally detached from her is based on me no longer wanting to feel what she generates within me. You need to be careful with how you feel around her. Learn to feel or gain a sense of when she's leading you to doubt yourself. Learn to feel or gain a sense of something she says being questionable. Learn to question her. Learn to feel or gain a sense of when she's manipulating people through her words. If her words feel wrong to you, trust that'. I've found it's one thing to feel or sense, it's another to feel or sense like a master of emotion. While I'm far from being a master myself (at 54), I'm determined to get there.

With a variety of people in our life, we develop the ability to feel across an emotional spectrum. While this can make us expert at feeling joy, inspiration and elation, it also leads us to become expert at feeling what manipulation, the pure self service of others and disappointment feel like. The most questionable of people in our life can turn out to be our greatest teachers, in the way of emotion. For example, I bet if I was to put you in a room full of people and ask you to pick out the most manipulative person in there, I bet you could easily do it based on your ability to sense them. You could say your sister has taught you well, for not everyone has the ability to sense a master manipulator. I think, with our kids, fast tracking them to gain a sense of such people can make their life easier. They don't have to spend years learning the hard way.

[Rascally]

Thank you Indigo, my daughter is at a very vulnerable stage & considering what I know about love bombing, if/when the mask wears off it will completely devastate my daughter.. Right now I want to reach out & physically drag her away to  deprogramming. Sounds extreme, yet I had no idea what was happening to me for over 40 years. My sister has created such a Web of lies & if I even hinted at revealing the truth I'm immediately shut down. 

Now my daughter is caught up in all this, even after my sister's kids were abused & neglected. My daughter supports her, goodness knows what is being said to her & I have no way to find out. Everything is a secret. I know my sister uses this tactic as a way to keep people separate so no questions can be asked.. the whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. How on earth do I continue to watch my daughter go down this path when I know it's caused me so much pain.. there should be some sort of legal protection against this. 

[Rascally]

Hi, my daughter has always been a strong woman, yet is very vulnerable lately. My other siblings have told me my sister sucks you in & drags you down. This is all too much, & I don't know how to help my daughter see the light and stay away.

I can feel it... something bad is going to happen & I can't help my daughter

[indigo22]

Hi Rascally,

May I suggest trying a different tactic with your daughter. I have been looking online at books on narcissism and gaslighting and found an article where psychologists recommended 6 books by different authors. I think reading one or more of these books would help with your own healing and could be worthwhile to leave one (or more) of these books where your daughter will easily see it. The hope would be that your daughter may see it/them and be curious about what you are reading when you are not present, this may be a way of giving her some education on the subject without it coming directly from you. The authors and books are:

Becoming the Narcissist's Nightmare by Shahida Arabi

The Covert Passive-Aggressive Narcissist by Debbie Mirza

Why is it always about You? by Sandi Hotchkiss

Emotional Vampires by Albert Bernstein

Disarming the Narcissist by Wendy T Behary

Recovery from Narcissistic Abuse, Gaslighting, Codependency and Complex PTSD by Linda Hill

The last book by Linda Hill is actually 4 books in one, but you can purchase the titles you are interested in separately, with many to choose from.

I hope this helps. I have actually downloaded a couple of these as ebooks to read myself. You may even pick up a few tricks in dealing with your sister from a couple of those titles.

Take care and we will be here for you when you want to talk,

indigo

[therising]

Hi Rascally

I think it's so important to have very loving people around someone who's being manipulated by a narcissist. This way they have people they know for a fact they can come to when that person begins to show their true colours. They also have people who are able to say 'What you're feeling isn't in your imagination. If what you're now feeling is their depressing behaviour, have no doubt that you're sensing exactly what's going on'.

I think what can be challenging in some cases is when someone doesn't have a true feel for the entire story. When they've only been around a short time for a snippet of a 40 something year story that involves manipulation etc, it can be hard to convince them to be careful. When there are a number of people saying, in one way or another, 'Be careful', this can be more convincing. I'm wondering whether your siblings or other family members have warned your daughter about being careful, based on their own experiences. Wonder whether they've warned her along the lines of 'Your aunt is so incredibly good at playing the victim. Her tactic is to lead you to feel sorrow for her, to the point where you will be willing to do just about anything for her. Test her, if you don't believe me, and don't do something for her that she wants you to do. Simply see how she behaves, whether she manipulates further or turns her back on you. Even out of sheer curiosity and nothing else, put her to the test'.

[Rascally]

Hi, I want to thank you all for your support & advice. At this moment I'm a complete mess and have decided to take a step back. My daughter will not openly communicate with me, which is devastating as we were so very close and spent a lot of time together. Some part of me believes this is my sister using my daughter to hurt me. The whole thing is messy & disgusting 

[therising]

It's definitely tough and even heartbreaking to witness a person appearing to 'pick a side'. Not everything is as it appears at times: I can recall when my mum cut her sister off for 4 years, as she'd had enough of her gaslighting ways, her discrete put downs and her twisting of the truth at times. When my mum cut her off after decades of this, my aunt tugged on everyone's heart strings while insisting she'd done nothing wrong. While my sister and I felt deeply for my mum and we were happy for her and her new found sense of liberation, others appeared to pick my aunt's side. What they were actually doing was believing in my aunt's story, while ignoring the facts. Sometimes it's not about picking sides, it's about ignoring or ignorance in the lead up to things coming to light. I observed people gradually wake up in their own time through their own experiences with my aunt. Some people still haven't woken up. I think what was most hurtful for my mum, who is a deeply feeling kindhearted woman, was that people assumed she was petty and hardhearted, cutting her sister off. What really hurt was people thinking poorly of her. Such is the nature of a gaslighter or narcissist, to brainwash people (gradually washing out all the good memories and beliefs regarding a particular person) and then, once everything's washed out, put in what they want you to believe. It's such a challenging thing to see and feel, especially when it's happening to someone we love who we wish knew better.