Questioning some things

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Those of you who know me know I have been bouncing from one rough life event to another for years, without really any time to take a breath in between. I can state well enough the things that have happened to me, but haven't had much energy to delve deeply into what those things have done to me. In the time off work since my partner had major surgery (yup, another fun crisis), I had time to start pulling at threads, to get a Mental Health Care Plan, see a psych and talk to a counsellor. As much as I always knew my life has been a steaming pile of crap, the threads I am pulling are connecting dots and giving rise to possible clarifications of events and what has arisen in their wake.

My childhood was severely neglectful. Mostly emotionally, but also in some physical ways. We kids didn't sleep in the (perfectly good) house, we slept in a caravan nearby - Mum cleaned up her and Dad's bedroom and the kitchen after the mouse plagues, but apparently our rooms weren't worth the effort. He carries on about her "unfit" parenting, but it's not like Dad did anything about it either. We were fed and clothed well enough. Never a lot of attention from either of them. I don't remember a single hug from either one during my childhood. Mum would immediately disinfect her hands if by some chance she came to touch one of us. Some years later, post parental divorce, Mum's settlement money ran out and we endured a brief stint without a home, a much longer (years) stint of inadequate food and no hot water.

I actually became pretty functional after moving out. Worked, studied, maintained a place on my own. Went through a couple of less than healthy relationships and endured with surprising resilience. Then came the last relationship. First two years, no major problems. Then bam, he's unfaithful. Enter ol' Blue's depression, that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. Damn fool remained in contact with him and we tried again at the relationship. To be fair, he didn't repeat that particular mistake. He tried hard to redeem himself and be a better partner. Until the ring was on the finger. Engagement in place, all effort fell away little by little. Dear gods did the neglect become overwhelmingly severe. I kind of got that there was a theme, but it's literally only now, years after breaking up with him, that I see why it was that straw that began my depression - just how closely what he did mirrored my parents' behaviour.

[ecomama]

Wow Blue, just wow... that's beautiful!

I'm so glad MIL acknowledged everything you expressed.
I'm so glad she appreciated it!

Sure! I wouldn't trust her either lol, BUT that's a real lost she's shown to you.

You've really done yourself proud in this moment. Ofcourse it was exhausting as THIS type of resolution in "family" is not quite our experience.

I'm proud of you. That's huge! I mean it's HUGE YOU wrote so explicitly to her and exposed your vulnerability in that letter, how you were hurt.

Now here lies the lesson to both of us and anyone else reading.
It's far easier to be vulnerable ie go the extra mile, put ourselves way out, extend ourselves beyond ever before - WHEN WE LOVE SOMEBODY.

That's all you did in the previous debacle of a r/ship. We were vulnerable ofcourse, we'd been hurt so badly. You did the "pick me dance", so did I... until I realised what I was doing and you also... then we ditched lol.

(It was my previous marriage I kicked H out that night (but still went to marriage counselling blah blahdy blah - called it quits).

It's now not only LM who sees your worth, but his mother also!

How weird this all must feel. Huge hugs!!

You will NOT believe that I actually brought up THIS very scenario to Alexa this week, saying "You know my friend Blue's Clues online? Well she went through hell with her MIL when her LM was in hospital.... I do NOT want to be that MIL..." yes, Can't believe that you're bringing up a resolution to it now - well kinda - difficult to unring that bell but you are...
I was saying this to Alexa because I didn't want to "push in" if she would have preferred BF to take her etc etc. She said not this time mum, I need you this time.

So if you HADN'T brought this up way back on the forums, then I may never have even thought I was pushing in, IDK!

Blues I apologise profusely for not responding to the previous post. I feel so negligent ughh!! SORRY!

It makes sense about the neglect and schemas matching with response of worthiness / unworthiness or whatever... but forgiving yourself is really REALLY important. (Crikeys Beyonce hey?)...

Anyhoo lol... the reality of my situation and you could consider this for yourself is that I HAD TO KNOW FOR SURE that there was no chance in hell left.
For me basically I saw him as the idiot in tin foil he was pretending to be to OTHERS, not me... the fog cleared (and wow do they talk about the FOG in infidelity forums)...

All good, it led to the RIGHT man.

Love EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

Thanks. It all went better than expected. When something has been eating at you so long you just can't see useful resolution, and certainly any comparable situations in my life before have resulted in no useful communication and having to cut the person out of my life.

Hm, you're giving me too much credit there, it may not have been hurt so much I exposed in my letter as anger... Diplomatically of course, but I made it clear I was furious about her behaviour. But yeah, the whole thing has been exhausting. I'm glad you get it. As you say, I'm certainly not used to such things having any form of resolution. Not just in family.

Yeah, it's LM I made that effort for, not for MIL. I was straight with her about that, too.

Dunno about the "pick me dance" re the ex. You commented about yours that you wanted to be sure there was definitely nothing left to salvage. That was me, too. I don't throw people aside lightly. To the point where I do myself a serious disservice sometimes. In large part I regret that, though it did take me (the hard way) to LM. His presence now takes some of the sting out of the tail of that.

It's interesting, MIL messaged me the next day, said she had a newfound respect for me, among other things. Does it feel weird? You bet!

Interesting that you brought up my situation with Alexa, never mind the timing of it. It's good you were able to have that conversation with her and know what she needed from you and what she needed from her partner. I'm glad my situation helped you look at things in a way that considered him too. Family relationships are tricky!

I wrote those posts on the same day, you didn't miss or forget anything - and there's a word limit to work with. All good.

Yeah, I really see those Schemas at work, it's interesting when you have that knowledge to view it from. Forgiving myself... I know it's important. Not really sure how, though, I've always been a bit rubbish with forgiveness in general. Big grudge bearer, me. So far not much info has come to light on the how of resolving that, just everyone saying "do it". It's not like farting, it doesn't just happen, it's a skill you gotta learn.

I get what you mean about the fog. The shock leaves you hazy, not knowing which way is up. It really is vile. I have so much to work through on the heels of it all, so many triggers, too much known about the (rhymes with floor) he did what he did with, anger and aversion sparked off so often still. It really sucks.

Blue.

[Jstar49]

Hey Blue,

Just a few random disorganised thoughts- sorry friend, I'm not even trying to order them logically! Hope it makes some sense.

Re MIL- WOW! How Cool is that?! And proof that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree! The emotional maturity needed to respond positively to your letter (and BTW I believe that anger and hurt are simply two sides of the same coin). I'm so glad for you that things have been smoothed out between you, for everyone's sake. Less awkward family occasions!

Emotions! We keep coming back to them here.

When I was in my twenties I did a lot of rebirthing workshops, and practiced with friends also. It felt like a lot of work, at the time, which others didn't seem to need to do. Your sentence makes perfect sense. "Whether we have people around us to help us through the emotions we can't process and work through alone." at the time of traumatic events. And really, so much of life can be traumatic, esp when we don't have good support systems. traumatic breakups, early childhood experiences, neglect, violence and abuse in families- emotional, physical, etc. So yeah, I can see why I needed to do so much rebirthing, which is really just emotional release work in a supported setting. for me, re-experiencing those stuck emotions, with a guide. Tapping into one's own higher self, or guidance system. Intuition, whatever one may call it.

I googled breathwork recently, but, like most things, it seems to have become a fancy money making thing.

However, so much of it is really easy to apply at home, esp if you have a trusted loved one who can go with you. Accompany you as you re-experience the emotions, sometimes the physical sensations, and be sensitive enough afterwards to help you recover, in quiet and calm, drawing or writing about the experience and any insights gained.

One thing I have learnt is that your body won't let you go too deeply into an experience (eg a traumatic memory) unless you feel safe.

I get the feeling that you would be able to spontaneously revisit some old stuff with LM, when triggered, and be able to heal some significant trauma, just by being open to releasing those emotions, safely and in the privacy of your relationship. Tip- cushions are REALLY GOOD!

Not sure if this is your cup of tea Blues, but we all need a good cry sometimes. And a scream, shout, punch the pillow moment. You don't need that old crap stuffing up your system, taking your energy.

I can definitly feel your spiral moving 'onwards and upwards!'

J*

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

No need for logical order, I probably do enough of that for everybody...

Yeah, it's pretty cool. LM and she herself did say the letter was initially met with defensiveness, but she took the time to reflect and bounce it off LM & her daughter, & got some perspective that way. Even during our conversation, she made further discoveries about where she was coming from, particularly that I reminded her of LM's dad, and she responded thinking I would be similarly unreliable during the harder parts of dealing with LM's health. Also the "sweeping it under the rug" thing, she identified as dissociation & as something she always hated her mother doing to her - it gave her perspective on where her mother may be coming from, and on what she could be doing better, herself.

You said "anger and hurt are simply two sides of the same coin" - sure, but I wasn't gonna point that out to her!

Yup, we keep coming back to emotions. Rotten things. I don't like mine, I want a refund!

Not really familiar with rebirthing. Sounds like something I'd be rubbish at, haha. Don't know about breathwork either, I'm sure as you say, Google will have all sorts of link to money making schemes around a vaguely similar concept.

No trouble believing the body would rebel against delving deep into traumatic memories when one doesn't feel safe. That's me most of the time, hyper-vigilant and full of fight. That said, yes there's been some spontaneous stuff with LM, I certainly feel safest with him, though the problem there is that I don't feel it's appropriate to give too much detail to him in dealing with stuff around previous relationships - it isn't fair to him to fill his head with stuff about my romantic history. If he did that to me, I'd be triggering all over the place, just picturing his history instead of what's in front of me - so I won't do it to him. That of course leaves me in a pickle when I trust him above all others and can't talk through with him some of the worst stuff I'm dealing with. Sigh.

Yeah, we all need a good cry sometimes. I have been feeling like I do need that, but even giving myself permission for it, my body has responded with a resounding "nope" and won't let it happen. Shouting is a problem, too, in an urban environment with neighbours close by. I do on occasion anyway, usually when I'm trying to be productive and keep getting disrupted. I have a speedball, that's better than a pillow, made to be punched.

Upwards, yeah. Not in a straight line though.

Blue.

[ecomama]

Hey Blues, I agree you have enough logical - ness to cover me & J*! (Do you think that gives us a FREE PASS now J*? LOL!).

It was a monumental achievement even WRITING such a letter, then sending it, then waiting to see if there was going to be a response, then wading through THE responses - plural.

Sure it contained anger, hey you had reasons TO be angry at her pushing you out of the way behaviour during that time. I remember you writing about it. That's why I brought it up with Alexa. God help me if I want to accidentally create MORE things to say sorry for!

But what an outcome, it's huge.

I can't imagine you'd be instantly comfortable in that relationship with MIL now, but your actions helped clear the air somewhat, do you agree?

And they'd know now NOT to mess with ole Blue lol!

I found it astounding that MIL just clumped you in a bucket with her H (or is it exH?).
Heavens Blues, you're from an entirely different GENERATION & different GENDER.

I tread very carefully around my children's partners. I know they're alot more nervous than I am, usually. Alexa's BF was terrified of me hahaha... omg I'm the most harmless person on earth given I'm on your side lol.
Perhaps that's the difference there. I START ON their side.

Re: ex. Btw affair partners are a dime a dozen, found on every street corner.
IDK how we forgive ourselves. But I tie it into not wanting to regret. I've seen some extremely mentally unwell people in my life time, since I was young, chock full of regret. Some of the scenes in my mind JUMPED me out of that very cyclical thought behaviour.
I did NOT want to end up like them!

Sure I've clearly made some hellish mistakes in my life lol! But regret, sure I could... but why?
It's done now.
I learnt a LOT.
I came from a place of bewildered ignorance due to my childhood.
I wouldn't blame any one else for making the same mistakes at all.

In fact my life shows a never ending resilience. A HOPE that I can and WILL improve my life (and I DO!). Determination is definitely something you & I share in ocean loads.

I've led the most amazing life. Had experiences that are breathtaking for all the RIGHT reasons lol.
My conscience is clear. I do forgive myself any "wrong turns" I've taken.

In my case if I DIDN'T have the horrid ending happen at EXACTLY that moment in time, then taken steps to understand it all, I would never have met BF. He annoys me with his innocence some times lol but he's very sweet & extraordinarily caring.

Love EMxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

Ha, you're gonna need some logic or I won't know what you're on about.

Agreed, writing that wasn't easy. Moreover, keeping it diplomatic wasn't easy! The outcome is surprising, and yeah, has cleared the air somewhat. It'll do for now.

I actually see her point in comparing me with LM's dad (he's her ex, they split when he was very young), though she really had blinkers on in so doing. It was about me thinking I'd have to return to work well before LM's rehab period interstate was over. That was literally because I didn't have much money and there wouldn't be a home for him to go back to if I didn't (or so I thought, before his dad shuffled quite a bit of money my way to keep me there). When LM was small and went through the first surgery, "I have to work" was apparently a bit of a catch-cry with his dad, leaving MIL literally holding the baby, and dealing with the intense medical/emotional stuff. So that's what she was reacting to. As for age and gender, I'm the provider in this situation and somewhat older than LM, so those are barely relevant differences in this instance.

It's tricky to know how to deal with partners of family. All you can really do is support and be honest if you're concerned about anything. Sounds like you go in with kindness in mind, and really, what more can you do?

Ugh, they really are. I don't understand what makes people so selfish. Could still do without knowing the details, though. It was someone he knew at school, who was part of his friend group. Someone who pretended to give a crap about me whilst all the while concocting some ridiculous Days of Our Lives-esque plan to take my place. Who even does that? That's crap you see on TV, for crying out loud! Of course it didn't enter my mind that that's the way my relationship would deteriorate.

I understand what you're saying about regret. Most of the time I'm pointing forward, not backward, the past just offers me pointers on where not to go again and I'm fine with that. Except when I'm triggered. It's those moments that dial up the negative emotions and send me down a path of self-recrimination. There's some pretty ugly stuff in that.

I hear you about resiliance and determination, too. We have it in spades. Mostly I see that. In periods of stagnation... Well, see above.

I'm doing my best, but between the triggers with neighbours, failing to improve things with my ADHD and digging into my other triggers lately, I'm having a real bad patch with it all.

Blue.

[ecomama]

Dear Blue

Sorry for missing this thread earlier. I'll do my best to be logical lol! Had a really rough week so glad to see the end of it tbh.
NEW WEEK.

Yes it IS difficult to know how much to say to our partners when they may lament about their family. Or worse, when they may trivialise something that's clearly OFF.

Bottom line for me is I've pretty much stayed out of those dynamics. Just mirrored their feelings (at times) and listened.

If they really absolutely LOVE their family, then I think that's great! BF does. He has some issues with them at times, barely any really but when they come up, they're pretty big! Never any talk of NC or anything like that. Although his dad is super possessive over BF. I could feel the whole house go icy COLD after they'd had a private talk when I met them all in San Diego. Long story, his dad is good or maybe "ok" with me now lol. He cares about what's going on for us, so that's nice.

Last week was the first time I understood how powerful the infidelity trigger is for me and why. It was a childhood thing. I have equated infidelity with 'threat to life' because that's the situation I was in, at that point of father's infidelity, in my childhood.
But the last infidelity "excursion" in my life was pretty much the same.
Also threat to home, children, livelihood.

Perhaps your triggers there cross over or you have other triggers there in addition to them there?
IDK.

Possibly when we've finally TRUSTED our partner, which is really all show for me to a point, then I may begin to trust etc... and this is a massive investment, then it's taken, gambled and blown frivolously on a "nothing".
Up in thin air - POOF gone, all that trust gone like dust.

So your ex liked the whole soap opera drama too?
demon was addicted to interpersonal dramas, it was sickening.

I love calm.
99% of the time my household is calm. So rare to have upset here.

I hope you find some calm for your mind Blue, we all need it so much.

Love always
EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Dear EM,

All good. Haha, a smidgen of logic is just fine. I hear you about having a rough week, I'm glad to see the back of it, too. Ugh.

Hm, I think the conversation flipped from partners of family to families of partners. That's another dynamic again. I'm pretty frank with LM in my thoughts about his family - as a general rule he sees the same things I see, so it's not typically a problem. MIL was a different matter, he was seeing her growing as a person after the surgery, I hadn't seen much of her and when I did she was ignoring that there was a problem. At least now it's out in the open. If there's one thing I don't do well, it's pretend things are fine when they are not.

I'm glad BF loves his family. Bit odd about that possessiveness from his dad. Has BF talked to you much about that? Glad there's some thawing of the ice there, at least. Is it maybe about you being in another country and feeling like you'd be "stealing" his son if he moves to Aus?

I can certainly see how you equate infidelity with threat to life, given the circumstances in both your childhood and your last marriage. Of course that would be significantly triggering, it couldn't not be. I guess one positive is that you've identified the connection and why that trigger is there.

For me the crossover in triggers is largely in unreliable/emotionally absent people in early life blowing up into an outright betrayal with that one. And the follow up of the mess our relationship became later is probably much worse for that. We actually did a lot of work to heal over a couple of years, there was some good in it, then we got engaged and it all went bad. The neglect and lack of care from him was tangible, it was so severe. All pretty words of love and promises of an equal partnership followed by actions showing disrespect and rejection and blindness to who I was entirely, leaving me with the brunt of housework, financial responsibility and making it impossible to even be there for myself never mind having him there for me.

No, he wasn't a fan of drama. He didn't even know it was planning its little soap opera drama. He just followed his dingdong at the time and ruined everything, found out later the (rhymes with floor) was planning everything in its stupid little head. Man-child was a weak idiot, not on par with demon as far as that stuff goes.

I do my share of swearing at surprise bills and stuff I stub my toes on, that's about as dramatic as it gets here, usually. I loathe drama.

Blue.

[ecomama]

Hey Blue

Yeah I haven't sworn about my latest bills plural. Only 2 but OMG. Both add up to over $6000, so breathe IN and breathe OUT over those.
Not for the fence or air con OR anything but past stuff.
Big blow today. Feeling super anxious over those.

I hate drama. TO BITS.
I LOVE calm, my garden and chooks clucking happily, pup snoring lol and cat purring.
PERFECT.

Yeah IDK if I would "trust" MIL again. But we can have all sorts of nice times, keeping a safe distance from others at gatherings (if you're ALLOWED to gather there? lol).
That saying "When someone SHOWS you who they are the FIRST time, believe them" rings true SO MUCH.

I'm not good at pretending but then again I'm an EXPERT at it too! LOL.
I have to put aside my personal feelings about certain work colleagues ALL THE TIME to be up front professional and no one ever notices (they actually tell me they didn't realise I wasn't too fond of this person or that).

I'm relieved to hear LM is open to talking about family dynamics with you and you with him.
Pretty great there.

BF is too, VERY open, even asks for my advice (ummm lol ok!) and even says to his family "I'm not sure about that, I need to speak to EM first and get back to you" - which is equally sweet and really weird lol!
He's PARTNER oriented. Puts me first as much as he can from a million miles away lol.

Oh yes it was not only that BF said outright to his dad that he was going to marry me and move to Oz, but that that his dad thought BF would never marry again. EVER.
BF more or less puts his dad's possessiveness in a frame of "my dad always wanted to PROTECT us", he's very sweet. BF does see his dad's ways as hindering him VERY much and has huge times of regret about not breaking free alot earlier.
I just let these paradigm shifts occur of their own accord.
I can't interfere in these.
I DO ask questions, it's my curious nature, but not much more.

That stuff about ex wow. Sounds like demon in training lol.
Do you think he's a narcissist? That phrase of a narcs M.O. "I have all the RIGHTS but you have all the responsibilities" seems to ring true there.
Do you think?

Glad to be FREE of that!

Gotta go and cook dinner, I'm on an esp tight budget now! Zero take away in this household for X long lol!
We're having Sang Choy Bow tonight.

Hugs to you and LM and tweets to Puffballs!
Love Aunty EM lol. xxxxxxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

Far out, that's a lot of money. I'd be swearing black and blue about those bills! How are you holding up with dealing with those?

Yeah, drama sucks. I mean, life will throw it at us no matter what we do, but we don't have to turn it into a soap opera. Despite all the madness with LM's health, it's mostly a calm household with him. Rare raising of voices unless in humour. I love his quiet, measured manner.

Yeah, trust is at a premium, there. We can get along without being close, that's good enough for me. Ha, yes, gathering is allowed here. Not without some restrictions, but they're pretty minor considering how much of the country is at this point.

Ugh, I get you about having to maintain a professional front at work. I think the people I don't like have some inkling I don't like them, I can be polite but sure don't give them any more time or effort than I absolutely have to. And if they're not working to the expected standard, they can expect to be told to get their act together. I've had my fill of incompetent idiots, they don't get away with it on my watch.

It's a great help that LM and I can openly discuss family - and pretty much everything else, really. I don't think it's so weird that BF wants to consult with you on some things with his family, though I guess that depends on the things.

Ah, the overprotective parent. Tricky dynamic to work with. Can't say I've ever had to worry about that one! To be fair to LM's parents, they aren't like that either, which is unusual given his condition. They've been really supportive of him having a life and as much independence as his health allowed.

You're probably on the right track there, asking questions shows interest and care, but not an attempt to control the outcome. He has to make his own decisions about how to deal with his father.

Well, that phrase of "I have all the rights but you have all the responsibilities" sure fits how things were with him. I don't think the cruelty was intended, it was born of blindness, being turned inward to the exclusion of seeing me or the effect he was having. I always had the impression it was very deliberate with narcs. I see him as being like my mum, so utterly messed up in themselves their neglect is coming from a place of just plain not being aware of anything but their own declining mental health, they're capable of giving very little to themselves and have nothing at all to give anyone else. That's what I see.

Outta words. Song from Puffballs.

Blue.