Introduction and some thoughts on spiteful Accountants

[Steve007]

Hi all, first time here, not quite sure how all this works but ill give it a go.

Background:

Australian male. Mid 50's, Diagnosed PB2, GAD, cPTSD you name it. I've given up on diagnosis, doesn't really matter anymore. Prior to COVID a very high functioning individual (probably ADHD + on the Spectrum). Former multiple small business owner, employed small Teams, paid Taxes, the works. Managed to get married, had a couple of children and life was pretty awesome and well functioning. Long story short, COVID # 2 wiped me out. Had to close business, lay off people, it is all pretty tragic. Amongst all this, wife left with children, financial ruin and 20 x inpatient Psychiatric Hospital Admissions and Sectioned once, here i am. I'm a shell of the former self, isolated and also have a Substance Use Disorder (Alcohol). Obvious to those with Mental Health issues, when everything gets so crappy all day everyday, i reach for some kind of short relief. Alcohol. Argue which came first, whatever, doesn't matter. No pity required, it is what it is. It all started as a child, maybe 5y.o. with chronic anxiety, panic attacks (no such term back then), developed over the years into crippling Agoraphobia in teen years, Depression and again stuff happened. I survived.

So the current dilemma.

I have a CPA who has been my Accountant for 20years. I even got him started lol. Though all my small businesses, and personal Accounts. His ex wife had 'Bi-Polar' years and years ago, divorced her and the stories about her and her mental illness struggles flowed over the years with sarcasm and ridicule. Basically bigoted rubbish (Clue #1). Then my wife left, he knew her blah blah and i ended up coming out of the closet so to speak. Full honesty to all. Quite relieving actually. But, my accountant only knows the rumor version of me, the super bad things, over the years taking snipes at me, poking fun even. It has become worse and worse. Such misunderstanding i am used to by now, but still astonishes me the naivety he displays and grief it causes me. Currently doing 2023-24, 24-25 tax. He bothers me no end with stupid questions about $20 transactions, again snide remarks "is that the couple schooners from the pub"... and absolutely outrageous invoices. Like $10,000 bills. Can't sack him, too entwined. Until now. I've not worked for a couple years, not Traded for the same and i instructed him to properly adjust the accounts (Asset Register) and the like which he failed to do over the years. $20 transactions, i tell him to put against my Loan Account - don't care. I'm struggling to survive, not data entry on MYOB.

So, has anyone had similar experience with Accountants. Even being taken advantage of (outrageous Fees)? I'm ready to dump him finally. Anyone have recommendations for 'understanding Mental Health Accountants' in Australia??

Much appreciated 

[Croix]

Dear Steve007~

Welcome to the Forum. Life seems to have handed you a very hard time, with multiple mental health issues, separation from your family, a reliance on alcohol and a CPA who sounds too close and too bigoted.

It may well be his attitude comes about due to the illness of his ex-wife and has spilled over into general bitterness that comes out as so called jokes.

You could get another accountant, CPA Australia wiil tell you who practices near you and is qualified, word of mouth is another way.

This of course comes with its own set of problems, paying being the first. Then having fresh eyes retrace the submissions over hte last periods 23-25 will be very time consuming and require a great deal of effort on your part to verify. Additionally this may generate some bad feeling.

An alternative course is to stick with your current accountant but firstly have a conversation wiht him saying how difficult it is for you to hear his jokes and 'funny' suggestions and at the same time examine any large invoice to ensure it is legit, maybe even phoning the company in question. 

Again this takes concentrated work on you part and may be stretching you too far.

You are the best judge of what is feasible. If you have a sensible friend or family member who can give you some support I think that would make a big difference.

You are welcome to talk more here if you'd like, being alone facing these trials is extra difficult.

Croix

[Steve007]

Thankyou very much Croix!

I really appreciate the time and effort to write back. I suppose this same issue pervades most Professions, Consultants, Employers all the way down to Friends and Family.

We are agreed. I have considered and/or actioned/ put into motion most of what you mention. Provides me comfort actually that my position is not totally unreasonable (not having anyone to talk to at all).

This was a 'last ditch effort' to see if there are any significant CPA's/ organisations/ groups/ whatever 'Accounting' that approach Mental Health with a level of understanding. Not sympathy, just understanding that i am completely missing. All good, your response clarifies that sufficiently for which i appreciate. But best to make informed decisions as best possible.

FYI - and probably for future readers....

- Yes, i have deliberately avoided changing accountants until now. Including the 23-25 years. No doubt i will get an enormous invoice and am running out of $ very quickly. Too entwined in my now not trading Small Business and Personal Tax affairs. It is easy for a CPA to call the ATO and say whatever they like to trigger multiple Audits and Investigations all from "bad feelings". I have been aware of this for years, hence tolerating his demeanor.

Well that's a little white lie, at one point last year i completely lost it and my impulsivity took over. I gave him a serving like no other late last year, sacked him and the rest - email, SMS and a direct phone call. I had to pull my head in over the next few days and retract everything, asked for forgiveness and a continuation of his Service. The Pro/Cons didn't weigh up sacking him as i did at that time. That within itself gave him more ammo, concluding on his email ".... i have just been concerned by your ever increasing erratic behavior. All Client information has always been confidential..". Kills me, i gave him a golden ticket and it is an overt lie.

So yep, new Accountant is on the Agenda. Current Accountant does his thing now, submits all the complex-ish stuff until EFY 2025 and my tax affairs become simple* from there on in. A graceful exit with an explanation of: "Appreciate all you have done, you are terrific guy blah blah"..... "Just no longer need your 'Comprehensive Financial Solutions Advice'.... hand over all Corporate Keys and any info i need etc etc. Love you 1000 times, bye, see ya later".

Won't bother reviewing fees or past tax returns, it's all history with no advantage to do so. May save $10k, but one call to the ATO from him (a half truth or not) will cost me way more than $10k in fees to him to respond to. Money making scheme 101. More important, my mental health would become tragic. It bad enough now..

Despite my 1 x mega blow-up last year, i have often expressed my feelings about such snides when he talks to me. Even during sobriety, genuine complex Tax questions i ask of him are met with ".... did you get that info from ya mate at the pub? laugh laugh)". Well no, i'm am more than smart enough to work it out myself but need to check with you. It was from a learned colleague actually, high net worth individual even. Also completely sober. It doesn't make sense to me so as always i ask. I must let you know, your continued mocking of my mental Disorders you know i have (but no idea of presentation/ complication of each and if affected presently) is both offensive and personally disappointing. All the usual 'sorry mate blah blah'.

Agreed, concentrated work is not my thing currently. I used to thrive on such ironically. Data entry of all the MYOB transactions for a couple years was a massive step. Best i could manage was 15mins max in a sitting. Sit down and distract. Try again. Weeks and weeks. Again, something i would glide through with ease years ago. All a bit disheartening and really takes it's toll. Where i was >>> Where i am now. With that context, you may understand what the little $20 accounting questions from him are extremely annoying. Each annoying silly email, just adds to extraordinary fees from put down as 'RFI Client Tax Items'....

@Croix thankyou very much for allowing me to talk here. It's strange, whist 99% of life chores i cannot deal with currently, nor any stress evoking tasks the writing here is easy. Usually taking hours of thought. Detete, retype, delete, retype !!

Thankyou all for allowing me to write such walls of text. Even if no one looks at them, it is a safe space for me to simply be overly verbose - it helps.

tks

[Croix]

Dear Steve007~

You have given a very clear picture of your business circumstances and relationship wiht your accountant. It is a pretty tangled web.

Whenever I've thought of having a serious dispute that will take energy, memory and feelings of anger, frustration and hopelessness I weight up the financial expense and what it will do to me mental health wise. A small example would be the endless correspondence over a baggage claim wiht a leading airline who apparently has short term memory issues and kept on asking me for the same information over and over again.

Normally I end up doing nothing as the cost is too great, and while I might think a little less of myself for not standing up that is better than endless doubts and sleepless nights.

I would think that while it may be disappointing and frustrating not to be in business any more it must make things simpler and you may be able to dispense with your accountant in a cordial manner.

Croix

[randomxx]

Gday there Steve and very sorry about everything going on for you but this damn Accountant on top, man.

Surely he wouldn't do that call though with the history between you and your help earlier but ofc you never do know.

As far as him understanding or sympathizing with your MH and situation in general, forget it, doesn't sound like that's gonna be happening . l don't know how many times l've had to stress things like that in some situation only for them to turn around and do or ask or act in all the very same straight afterward . 99% of people in whatever the case l find it's straight over their head with zero comprehension or care either.

l have seen this done and managed it myself to,others l'd wished l did but explaining it's another thing, l think though there's ways to handle him that might keep him in his place but without burning bridges so that you can just get this bs over the line and then be done with him once and for all.  

It's kinda about standing ourselves firm about whom we are, not responding to their bs or even acknowledging it, not apologizing that'll just go back to their heads, no niceties or flattery, same again. You don't like ea other that's ok lets just get this shyt done and be done. We're not amused can be an unspoken firmness that they'll pick up especially after a couple of attempts at belittling or cracks that all end the same way.

ldk if any of that makes sense as say l've seen it though, had it myself and have managed it too enough to get in and out of whatever the situation or the job done or whatever the case, without their bs.

l've even had customers for example over the yrs it might've been a 10k job/pay day for me if they take it but they've walked in with attitude or that way about them and for me that's it. Cut the bs answer or respond to what's needed but that's as far as l'd go they can like it or lump it take the job or walk out the gate , whatever.

One night this guy turned up about 6, showed his colours 1 second in , instant dislike on both sides, attitude from him, cracks, but eh, l got the deal over the line. No pretence and there was a problem with the job to actually so we ended up working [together] on it to 11pm that night, closely and it was during Covid to. Still not liking ea other but also not dishing out any more shyt or taking it.

11.30pm pitch black, off he drove but eh, with the job on the back. l don't think we even said goodbye apart from a grunt or two ha, he paid, gave him he's paperwork, adios.

l was pretty good at it in my business, l'd give them 5mins when l got one like that but eh if they didn't change their tune, ok l'm done. All business and they could take the job or not, whatever. They usually did.

Wish l could manage t in life as well as ,l say but you know with work we get into work mode it's a different thing.

Anyway, make of it what you will, might be something in it that helps with this idiot.

Good luck.

rx

[Steve007]

Thankyou all for your posts. I do really appreciate each and every thread. 12.15am, laying in bed. Not sleeping again and an endless loop of obsessive catastrophic thinking prevail. Made worse by other recent revelations.

To the topic at hand, I don’t have the energy to type, nor express everything clearly. Many will know the experience of the ‘mixed state’ where you are exhausted, yet brain is hypo-manic and yet depressed yet can’t sleep, yet can’t move. 

Anyway, dot format, hope this gets it out of my brain and onto ‘paper’.

ATO gave me an 3week extension weeks ago. Told accountant the same and gave him new deadline. Gave him my MYOB file. He ignored email. I chased him. He replied ‘he expected it a week ago’ I.e. it would be a week late from the planned 3 weeks (I can deal with that).
Proceeded to and fro with silly emails with lists of inconsequential lists expenses to justify from $2 through to $20. I said, ‘when in doubt, log to my personal account, I’ll pay full freight tax on them because they are not worth even thinking about. Not worth chasing $200 combined expenses. Passive aggressive responses flow ‘please do not dismiss me… need accountability in the event of a full Audit’. I note the veiled threat and must back off. More of the same garbage emails.

Now 3 week overdue, over due (like twice overdue now) and tax man on my back AGAIN. I barely got a commitment today that Account might be end of next week….. great, I’ll call ATO (well today).

Subtleties within all this, which has been a recurrent theme over the years is prolonging any time frame to conclude any Tax return or similar. This allows his extraordinary billing to be somewhat plausible. Can’t charge someone $10k for pressing a few buttons in a few hours can we?

crazy brain 🧠 just clicked into overdrive. ‘Elevator ride’ is insane. Now energetic, depressed and looking seriously at my PC now. Composing the most technical of technical documents, with extraordinary links to other documents and automatically update from published data changes yet linked the or inal policy……. Should I go on? I realise it is just another ‘maladaptive coping mechanism’. Another extreme obsession to wrap myself up with. Involves very complex thought processes for hours on end. I totally engross myself so I mask the ‘real life’ issues. No different to a bottle of JD, gambling, smoking, drugs, exercise. Quite interesting my changed inflection as this posted was created 😂. Even an lol emoji….weird (but I understand)

[Croix]

Dear Steve~

Things are very difficult for you at the moment and I suspect that at times you may put something off, much as I do, as I do not want to face it. This of course does not help with taxation matters. I would imagine if you have not already done so getting your clinical team to give you a medical certificate for a pretty lengthy period might help (my apologize if you have already done this).

Composing a 'live document' is a very complex and difficult matter and and as someone who made iterative displays I can understand how much concentration it must take.

Yes the state of exhaustion, hyper active brain and depression sounds very familiar and I"m not sure by plunging into a very intellectually demanding set of code is the way to go. Code is exact, you can't really ignore things that don't work properly so it takes more and more energy to sort each thing out (unless unlike me you write perfect code in the first place:)

And no I disagree it is different to a bottle of JD, gambling, smoking or drugs, all of which end up physically harming you.

Perhaps if you were to get your brain to relax and thing of inconsequential matters removed from your life you might feel better. I use this as a distraction and a way of coming down form a very active mental state to calm. The free app I use to do this is Smiling Mind, which provides a vast level of exercises for all persons, young people and adults of all ages, and catering ot all concentration levels (mine is as good as a goldfish:(

It does take some practice, pick an easy exercise and try. I found I had to have one where a voice kept reminding me at hte right frequency to stop my mind wandering. It works ok.

Croix

[Steve007]

G'day Croix,

thankyou for your supportive post(s). This post is so yourself and anyone else for that matter has a resolution to the matter. Might help someone one day. Finally all past and current Tax Returns, Personal and Company (not trading) are completed. Took forever, but done and hopefully submitted online today by the expensive CPA. He insisted i come to his office to sign everything. I can't bloody walk outside my little apartment let alone to the train station, catch the train, watch his smug face, veiled understanding and comments that i look like absolute crap. So i Googled ATO. Says (long but clear answer) not necessary. So i simply reply emailed 'no can do, please send emails and i shall check, print the pages to be signed and send back'.
I could have also Acrobat digitally signed but least path of resistance was print, sign for a couple painful hours. Done, sent. The only reason i could do this is the notion the finish line was just 2hrs way.

Now all the buuuuuttts.... in the main i was correct in my skepticism. I asked for a quick net Tax position to see if i have pay anything (which i cannot afford).
Quote
"Your tax position is as follows:

Activity Statements                Refund            $xxxxxx

2024 Individual Return           Refund            $xxxxxx

2025 Individual Return           Refund            $xxxxxx

Me: yay! I also asked for his Invoice in the same email. Didn't get it. So again requested.... I received and answer alright..

Quote
"I will prepare an invoice later today.  I have put my trust account details on the returns for the above refunds.  Once received we will deduct our fees and return the balance to your company bank account"

Me: Still waiting for the invoice... 100% guaranteed to be $1 less than the total refund. I'll re-email him tomorrow, which will probably cost me another $1000....

Seriously, what a joke. And it ain't for $200 either. And my tax ain't a scam either. It is a direct product of when i was a highly functional individual for my entire life, employing people, paying a gazillion in tax quarterly/ yearly for decades. Never short paid anyone in my life. It is my legit money! D***hd. Yet i'm in a direct debit, no can refuse position without a contestable invoice as yet. The invoice will not even be itemised. I dare not push that boundary, it is what it is and hopefully he just grabs his cash, smiles to himself and pats himself on the back and we move on. I will forget about it. 

Final kick in the nuts: Asked him for his MYOB File (easy back up process) so i can dump the expensive MYOB product i have. I'm in super conservative mode ATM. I can use it off line, cancel my MYOB subscription and still legit use files as 'read only' without charge..... i was waiting looking at my email to move... got it:

Quote
" ... We use your MYOB purely as a cashbook, and don’t update it with year end entries.

Im not sure a backup file of MYOB will open if you don’t have a current subscription, as you need the online software to open it. Best call MYOB to find out what to do...."

What a load of horsebull. I ain't dumb. I am severely functionally stuffed currently. But not dumb. I have used MYOB for decades so i can watch everything live day to day and not simply hand control to such people as he. I know how it works, already know i can use an offine file for free and it is impossible for him to produce all the 'Financial Statements' he does, without all previous years considered and a complete 100% comprehensive entry..... sigh... leave it... not worth it....  

So end of main wall of text. Continue another reply with a tad more info on your other items.

[Steve007]

Gday RX,

re-reading your last post a few more times made me chuckle. It’s makes more than sense. I pretty much 💯  agree and can see exactly where you have been and formed such opinions. Funny how everyone has a story they are too scared to talk about, yet when they do on such a platform as this, they suddenly find someone 💯 understands if not lived through the same.

The Business vs Life mode, man I’ve tried to say that for years and years. Shrinks and all the rest. Useless. They don’t understand. Forget it. My greatest successes have been in Business. Same but different context as you. I have concluded all the years later, my MH conditions were integral to that. An asset without any doubt in my mind. Albeit a life long battle to contain the ‘beast’. My MH was actually a very very important tool I used - in the main not knowing it. I do now 20/20 hindsight and all. That said, I was always stumped how I could do that in Business, yet completely fail in life. Yeah I had all the usual white picket fence, married, 2 kids, awesome business, all the toys…. yet that all means nothing when the wife left unannounced. The kids with her. Money ceased…. I’m left with the proverbially hat full of di**ks. Useless. And all these years later. Useless too. 

I’m over all that in the main, because I understand it better. Never forget, but forgive. Can’t be going around blaming people when it is perfectly clear (if I look honestly in hindsight), I played a pretty significant roll in it all. Not 💯 at fault, but whatever. Business vs Personal….. two don’t correlate at all. For me anyway and sounds like you too. 

I’ve also learned to pick my battles like you. If i am in an inevitably losing position (because i thought of every single conceivable resolution that gave me a 1% win). Well don’t waste my time, cop it on the chin and move on. 

First of many to mind: I had a Client who’s work went on for ever, over 4 years from memory. Invoiced little bit by little. Payments started to get slower and slower. Next minute, his mega Lawyer dude takes over the project. Continue on, for a year or so. Suddenly the work goes back into full flight over 3 months with the finale - a 3 day/ night straight, glued to the computer full hypo episode over the entire Easter weekend, no sleep, no food, furiously working to get it done. The 4th day, my hands wouldn’t work properly. Couldn’t really type. WTF?? Tried to lay down and ‘rest for a bit’. Absolutely no chance. I simply could not leave the Code @Croix mentions. Non-negotiable. I was renowned for it. I delivered. Back then called ‘the maniac’ in jest, my proud motto was ‘I get s**t done’. And I did. Until I broke. As did my personal/ family life before that. Non compatible skillset.
I invoiced for the stupid hours I’d spent…radio silence. High powered lawyer dude finally calls ‘no f**kn way man…. Blah blah blah”. Only at that point, did I recall the very odd instructions, group conversations and other things since he took over….. hmmm. Got me. Sigh. Yes an arguable position, but a wiz bang lawyer to go against? I’ll be $70k in debt chasing it. He will be 0. He does his thing in 20seconds and I then chase for a year with hatred all consuming… nah. Settled with a payment after all that which equated to $5/hr 😂😂. 

Finally my OP. Pick your battles. My experience is as soon as someone becomes ‘entitled’ leading them down the Rabbit Hole, well it’s always a poor outcome.

Chose my battle in this case. Had a whinge? For sure. Should I do anything different? Nope. 

[randomxx]

Gday there Steve.

Man that sounded gut wrenching almost destroying yourself on that job only to cop that bs later. Total brain fk.

You took the right path though and the bloody thing got over the line even if not too profitable eh, it happens in business doesn't it sometimes you just gotta get off that damn train right.

My work was on the physical side and there were quite a few like the one l mentioned, worse. That night l was already mentally and physically completely stuffed when he got there let alone dodging Covid while still at it to 11pm shoulder to shoulder- he'd come up from Melb right in the middle of their Covid but as we say- work mode, you drag it out don't you and just get the thing done. Would've helped though if we could've been nice to ea other.

Had much worse though must admit not personality issues but other stuff. One bloke was such a nice bloke but the job went completely to shit. That one l was delivering wound up stuck on a mountain top 4hrs from Melb in 40degree heat had to call a tow trucks from miles away finally got one- long wkend to boot, it costed + 3k + costs, +2 days stuck up there + the job was buggered. l couldn't take it home again that would've costed another 3k so l called him and basically just offered it to him as is for my costs and that's it.

He was such a nice bloke if there's was one person l'd have liked to give the best to he'd be it, shame. He got it for costs though but it was half buggered, felt really bad but l was up there 2days in that heat man, just wanted to get back in the car and spin the wheels for home , 15k out of pocket, l don't care whatever, just get me outa here pleasssseee.  😂😂

But eh, sounds like we're both all done now right. You got through it with that moron and it's all in the dust. 

On the up side l was my own boss and usually, when something didn't hit the fan, had a pretty cruizy work life and hrs. 

But l really hear you in the dealings as compared with just life and people- family and whoever . Sometimes l'd think they couldn't even comprehend the other me in work mode.

So sorry about the family stuff on top of it all to though man. When mine broke up l decided well, once l could even think again anyway, l'm gonna keep things with ex good it wasn't all her l'd made a mess of things to but whatever. l just wanted to be the best dad l can from there and , well, that all really really paid off in those ways for my d thk God, and for me too.

Good luck with things man, give yourself a pat on the back.

rx