Need some perspective - wife has asked for separation

[DaveKay]

HI community

I'm 47 with 3 kids (11, 8, 6) and a marriage (12 years) that's been on the rocks for a while.

My wife has asked for a seperatation, and I'm after some perspectives from anyone who has gone through something similar.

As background context - wife has been unhappy for quite sometime, and has previously asked to seperate. Her reasons are that I am too difficult to live with, and that I scare the kids when I yell at them. I get where is she coming from, and I've tried my hardest over the years and months to settle that down. A lot of that stems from me being the primary income earner (working long and hard hours) and then carrying a big household load as well (cooking, shopping etc). Wife does most of the running around, appointments etc. The house gets crazy chaotic most times, and it just happens that my dad-yelling is much more aggressive that her mum-yelling. That's just for background and context. I know I can be a real knob sometimes, so here we are...

She's asked me to move out of the house so she can stay with the kids. My primary resistance is that I cannot afford to fund a second residence without significant impact on the kids (ie remove from private schooling, reduction in costly extracurricular activities). My second resistance that the kids quality of life will suffer as a whole, though wife thinks they'll be happier with me not being around so much. 

I said I don't plan to be kicked out of my own house, and she seems determined to leave with the kids. The frustrating this is that she believes there are rental options for $150 a week (ie cheap!). Lol & sigh.

I don't have feelings for her anymore, but I am determined to hold things together for the good of the family, and for sheer practical reasons. Her idea of good is not being around. Any statement I make about finance/cost is seen by her as financial blackmail. 

I am really hurt and angry. I've busted my butt for the family, and carry so much of the income generation and household chores. 

I'd love to hear from anyone who has been in a similar scenario

- how did you manage the cost of a secondary residence?

- how did the kids cope with separation?

- is there a good side to any of this?

Thanks, all!

[white knight]

Hi, welcome,

Lots to cover maybe not all able to do in one post.

I separated due to my 1st wife's abuse of me. Two girls 7 and 4yo then (1996). She stayed in the house, small ,mortgage, single mums pension. I bought a 10ft caravan and stayed in a caravan park and worked extra 12 hour shifts to fund my next project. So, bought block of land then settled with her- she gets the house I get the garage I'd built.  Bought block of land, put garage on the land then built a kit home. Yes, I virtually had no savings.

I too had worked hard and long shift work hours as she was to be the homemaker which she failed at dismally. Sarcasm and silence was her tools of hurt. But lets put that aside, in your case she is not wanting the marriage, you need to accept that, sadly.

Your anger is understandable, because if we reverse the situation, why she not work and you be the homemaker on a pension and child support? Her sole reason for "taking" the kids eg your yelling, isnt justification at all.

I say this because yelling is borderline abuse. It is common and often acceptable in some families. It's often how you grew up. but some, and I can assume your wife, go the other way and resent the yelling they copped when they were young, hence her criticism of you yelling. I digress.

You are unlikely be able to do as I did in 1997, build your own home or even afford to. You'll pay 31% of your GROSS wage for 3 children and her pension wont be affected. Depending on her income from you will determine if she gets family allowance. In my case it was 27%, 2 kids and even though I worked 60 hours shift work a week, she earned more than me. Go figure the Govt's logic. When I finished building my home she wrote to child support demanding more money from me because "he has a brand new home, mine is 100 yo").

So expect some nastiness coming your way. As you havent broken any laws (yelling) you are entitled to visitations every second weekend and you can apply for 50/50 custodianship if living nearby and can prove you can look after them and work at the same time. Highly recommended you visit a family solicitor and sort the possibilities out mate, first visit usually free.

Some options for me couldnt be taken up. I had mental health issues I was then unaware of. But options like living in the garage and co-parenting, spare bedroom, for some its ok, others no and the yelling issue would remain contentious. With regard to her rental cost, when ever these statement arise ("$150 a week") suggest to her that "I will move out tomorrow when you find a two bedroom place for $150 a week". Then she can do the research and ... wait. When she realises its $450 a week+ bond+ electricity, gas etc and it takes about $5000+ furniture she might not mention $150 again.

Sadly when I lived in the caravan park many men were there permanently and their wives in the house with the kids and the boyfriends. In fact often the new boyfriend benefitted by the situation. That can work in reverse. 

The justice situation does not exist healthily with divorces, property settlement (I think she's entitled to 70% of assets with 3 kids if she gets sole custody). Or you could refuse to move and that forces her to find a place and then she'll need the $5000 to afford to do so. Of course you need the furniture, beds etc  so your kids can visit. So throwing that option at her with the alternative to sit down and talk it out how you both can move on separately might work.

Yes, it can be very unfair but it is only unfair if one party, the man or the woman isnt realistic nor working as a team to seek the most acceptable solution, if that doesnt happen you are in for a fight. Solicitor first stop.

We are here if you need to talk.

TonyWK

[JaneyLou]

1.  

Hi DaveKay

I have experienced exactly what you describe but as the wife. It’s a sad situation. Staying put will just prolong a bad situation. Find a solution that works for both of you. Make sure your kids understand what’s going on and that they’re not to blame for any of this. There is a happier life out there for both of you …separately, with new partners who will appreciate you for what you do and who you are.  Sell your home, split your assets fairly and move on. There is a bright future. Kids are not silly…they know when adults are happy or not, never stay together for their sake. 

[DaveKay]

Thanks, Tony. I really appreciate your candidness and openness. Ironically, "we" have a new (6mo) caravan and car because it's her "dream" to caravan with the kids. Yet I'm at fault for not wanting to spend 8 weeks on the road with her and kids over xmas. Anyway, prob a bit more to that is worth going into.

Funny, I told her to find me a $150 place. Her response was "why do I need to do everything for you". That exemplifies what I need to deal with. I get a statement of desire/want/direction then need to go figure it out. It doesn't help when I say to her that ideation without execution is hallucination. 

I said I refuse to move out. She's threatened to move out with the kids. God knows where (her family is 2.5 hours away, and mine is across country). I'm really trying to avoid brutal ultimatums.

My worry is that she'll pull two levers in any settlement discussion. One that I work long hours (ie 9 to 5) and therefore can't look after the kids and the second being the kids are fearful of me because of the yelling (the yelling I accept is very problematic, but I keep a tight lid on it so it may be a few times a month). 

I've spoken to a solicitor. Pretty much the same general advice you provided. I'll be jammed up either way.

The statistics for well being after separation / divorce are well known and truely sad. Nobody wins. My primary goal in life is to fund the kids uni and first properties. Her view is that because she grew up on a farm with the basics, there is no need to support them in the future. So frustrating.

My plan today is to outline separation of finances, and to carve out $50k of expenses that will be needed to fund a second residence. 

I really appreciate your response. It's helping me prepare mentally for the road ahead.

[DaveKay]

Hi Janet - short, simple and very resonating. That's not a future I want to embrace, but it's becoming clear that's the path ahead. Thank you for sharing your situation, I appreciate it 🙂 

[Carus]

Sorry to hear my friend....and yes you have some fires to walk through now....

HOWEVER, you shouldn't stay in a situation like this as it will only make you more and more depressed and unhealthy. That's not why you were born onto this earth!

Kids are resilient and they'll make it through. It is worse for them to grow up in a household with two unhappy, fighting parents....But as JaneyLou said above, it is imperative you explain to them (more than just once) what is happening and it is NO way their fault....coz kids live in an egocentric world and everything that happens around them IS their fault...

I've heard before that you shouldn't leave the house as the courts will look upon that as it was YOU that abandoned the family....even though it's her decision and will bring you some space and peace of mind.. Don't quote me on that one but perhaps run it past your lawyer....

And lastly, I know you can't see it or feel it right now, but once you get through this and the atomic dust settles, there is a much better, healthier and happier life waiting for you at the other end. Just need to get through the tunnel first.....*

Sending You Strength for the road ahead.

Regards

Carus*

[white knight]

Caruso is right, kids are resilient.

It's too idealistic to keep your plan of funding uni and 1st property. This is where you could be adding stress to yourself.

I would return to that solicitor to ask for means to ensure she can't move too far away from you. 

TonyWK 

[white knight]

I've been doing a lot of thinking on your situation Davekay.

It is common when a marriage fails that a parent will demonise or exaggerate the other parents parenting in any way they can to - distance them from the children with the ultimate aim of sole parenting, end up with sole custody with the other parent with visitation rights and so on.  I've noticed with your account of her reactions and answers to your interactions with her that this "anti" you stance is along those lines.

Briefly- My 1st wife, mother of our kids, was narcissistic, used silence as a cruel weapon often when she had pushed me to my limits resulting in me yelling at her. After separation she'd tell others my yelling was the problem. It was only when I told those people why my yelling was a last resort due to her lack of carrying out her role in our marriage (homemaker) that they realised I was that frustrated. When a partner works 3 job one which is shift work and the other the homemaker, cooking a meal for him/her is their job, washing clothes and taking the kids to school all part of doing what the worker cant possibly do, but I had to such was the laziness.

However, you dont need to prove to anyone to justify your position. What you do need to do is two things- 

•  stand up to her in a tactical manner 
• maintain your rights as an equal parent
• dont allow her to dictate your future in any way eg leave the house.
• safeguard your rights to your children eg she not move too far away
• accept that she is not being realistic towards you as she has an ultimate plan
• accept that whatever criticism she has of you is not real
• maintain your confidence that your logic trumps any illogical replies.
• Deal with untruths by a simple - "thats not right" or "I'm an equal parent"
• accept in your mind that a father is indeed an equal parent

My ex said many things that hit hard- 

• "I'm the mother, the kids usually stay with the mother"
• In response to me taking the kids to a parent and teacher night "I've sorted all that out, besides, its not in your visitations rights, see you on Friday night when you collect the kids"
• She'd demonise my parenthood "you get angry too often" any my reply "you dont ever buy fruit for the kids... my house my rules

Someone that isnt demonising would acknowledge your attempts to reduce your yelling. Let's be clear yelling isnt good, but noisy or naughty children can press buttons and some parents have the calmness not to respond in that way and it is serious leading to anxiety, bullying behaviour when grown adults.  Google- 

Is it OK to yell at your kids? Yes, if done the right way

For every article on "yelling is ok" they'll be 2 when it isnt. So control to limit it is perhaps a good start. Go for a walk is good also even to the letterbox, clear your mind.

But it could be argued that her intention to deny your kids their full time father using yelling as her main reason is more hurtful to the children as resilient as they might be.

Google- 

Is withholding a child domestic violence? Barton Lawyers

She has the right to separate, divorce, get a life without you. Everything else being equal is up for negotiation... everything. 

In the meantime if you attend a therapist/counsellor specialising in family matters for your "yelling" tendencies, that would go a long way in terms of any possible future court session with a judge. It would also do you well in your own parenting even though I doubt that the frequency of your yelling is pivotal and could be over reacted by her.

TonyWK

[DaveKay]

Thanks, TonyWK and Carus

Many of your points resonate very well. 

• Accept that she is not being realistic towards you as she has an ultimate plan. Well said, and I think this is true. But I think her plan is delusional (ie that she & kids will be better/happier). Part of my resistance is my determination to avoid a statistically likely worse outcome for all. Her ideal plans are delusional, based on rose-coloured memories of her own childhood. We have fulfilled the majority of her "dreams" over the years - purchased a caravan for kids holidays, shift to part time to be with kids more etc. I've put my foot down on buying horses (I can't believe I am even typing that) etc. I cannot let my kids be pulled into a life fuelled by delusion.  What's really frustrating about all this is the we have 1-2 fights a month (and they are reducing as I learn to better keep my emotions in check ahead of time) and work reasonably well the majority of the time. I cannot see any circumstance where a separated household is going to benefit her, or especially the kids.
• Accept that whatever criticism she has of you is not real - this is the hardest to deal with. Her criticisms are mostly valid when taken outside of context. I do yell more than I'd like to (but the pressure/frustration that leads to that is predictable), and I do serve some pretty damaging insults when we argue (ie attack her parenting). Her view is that we are 99% incompatable, my view is we are 5% incompatible. It is really hard to have a rational discussion about it all, which just adds to point 1 above. 
• Maintain your confidence that your logic trumps any illogical replies - I do to a degree, but I believe I am humble enough to see and understand her perspective (whether I agree with it or not). But at the end of the day, my logic is not helping me achieve the outcome I want (ie stay together). 

I'm heading interstate for a week on Sunday, which should give her some space. I've also asked her to start setting up her own financial independence (like get her own credit card and silo her expenses). But I've made clear I am not vacating this house under any circumstance. We've been sleeping in separate rooms for the past 10 years, as one or more kids have always found their way into the bed. That's another whole thing, possibly both a symptom and a cause, ha ha!!

Despite all your positive comments about a better life after separation, I still have a mind to doggedly hold this together and keep finding ways to remediate. I have a 24 hour memory that keeps resetting (she has a 99 year memory, unfortunately). I am not unhappy with my situation, just sad and frustrated. My plan is to have her do all the heavy lifting with separation to see just how committed she is to that course of action.  

I'll keep you all posted!!

[Robby60]

I can understand your desire to keep the family together in un-ideal circumstances, particularly considering the alternative.

I worry that you say "I've also asked her to start setting up her own financial independence".

Law professor and former law reform commissioner Augusto Zimmerman describes the mechanism by which mothers can unilaterally evict husbands from the family house and relegate them to excluded parent/financial slave in his submission to the 2019 Family Law inquiry. You can look this up if your ever feeling a bit too cheerful. Think she wouldn't stoop that low? So did every father that ever copped it.

I think an expression of reduced trust is risky but I understand it may be necessary.

It may be a good time to be philosophical about the nature of your relationship and being very clear about what you can realistically seek from it. It's helpful to understand transactional analysis, conflict triangles, covert aggression etc. You have to become the teflon man. If her empathy for you is gone then that is something to be accepted and not resented. Can you both be adult enough to maintain a business like relationship over the kids and otherwise live separate lives? Is that what you seek? Is that what she seeks? What's your relationship with your kids like?

Your safety lays in being useful to her in some way other than just financial because if she takes the gloves off she has your financial support with or without your blessing.

Too many unknowns to say much more than this.