Managing Boundaries

[Eagle Ray]

Throughout my life I have had great difficulties with boundaries. I have often allowed others to transgress my boundaries because I felt like I had no choice. This pattern comes from childhood where I was taught to focus on the needs of others but not myself. The consequences of not anticipating and meeting other’s needs in childhood were quite severe and often involved rage being directed at me. Hence I’ve been very sensitised to others’ needs in a kind of compulsive, unconscious way. Countless times others who’ve wanted someone to meet their needs have sensed this about me and quickly attached to me but they have often then become unhealthy co-dependent situations and I’ve felt trapped.

I am now in a transition phase where I am learning to unlearn this pattern. But my goodness it’s hard. With people who were being particularly exploitive with me it has been easier to leave those situations. But with others I can see their vulnerability and continue to have empathy for them. They’ve often had some kind of trauma themselves and have developed a particular attachment style. Just as I’ve developed the role of the carer/support person for others, they have developed a kind of dependency role. It’s partly because I have empathy for them that I can still struggle to set boundaries with them. I don’t necessarily want to walk away from the person and I care about them but I can find it hard getting the interpersonal boundary right.

I am gradually learning the following:

• how to see myself and start to consider my own needs.
• not feeling guilty for setting a boundary.
• listening to my body which never lies and will feel uneasy if something is unhealthy about the way someone else is attaching to me. I used to ignore this feeling by convincing myself that everything will be fine only to end up in bad situations.
• feeling a higher level of assertiveness.
• observing how the other person reacts when I do express a need around boundaries as this is often an important indicator of whether they can genuinely see me and respect my boundary needs or whether the relationship is one-sided.

I am interested to know how others may have learned to establish boundaries. I realise for some people it is second nature to take care of their own needs and boundaries while for others it’s very difficult. I just thought this might be a good topic for the Staying Well section as for me my ability to stay well has been impaired by my inability to protect my boundaries in the past.

Have you had similar boundary issues and have you found ways to manage your boundaries in healthier ways? Or you may have a different set of boundary issues and dynamics to me so feel free to discuss what is relevant for you.

[Croix]

Dear ER~

I can relate to your struggle wiht boundaries, particularly when you have empahty with someone, however having seen your replies to people for a long time now here on the Forum  I'd have to say you are managing extremely well. It is very obvious you are an empathetic person but also that you move from one set of threads to others, leaving at a time that is appropriate and devoting your efforts ot htose in most need you come across (and also heading off for fun too:).

While of course I do not know how you get on in real life I strongly suspect you are diong as well, or almost as well, as here. I'm glad you listen ot your body, not only for oyur own mental state, but as an indicator that a relationship is not as it should be.

The world need empathetic persons such as yourself, I'm glad you have the self awareness to recognize problems and act on them

Croix.

Woops - I nearly forgot to give you a congratulatory 🐧!

[Eagle Ray]

Hello Croix,

Thank you once again for being such a kind walrus. I am slowly learning how to establish boundaries for myself. I know a strong feature of Complex PTSD, or developmental trauma as it’s sometimes called, is not being able to always have a safe sense of a boundary. It’s like you learn latently in life what others developed in a healthy way in childhood.

I’m only starting to really learn to be more assertive with boundaries but I think when you first start doing it, it either comes out too strongly or haphazardly. I felt awful when I recently upset someone on another thread where I went into boundary protection mode because my C-PTSD got triggered. That person probably won’t come back now. It was not my intention to cause hurt or offence but to protect myself. My uncle who was a war veteran once went up to a mate of his, also a war veteran, and put his hand on his shoulder to say hello. His mate swung around and punched him to the ground. That was his mate’s PTSD reaction. Fortunately my uncle had no serious injury and also completely understood his mate’s reaction, realising he’d startled him. I have a strong startle response as well and also get very easily overwhelmed by anything that triggers certain visual and emotional memories. So that’s what happened on the other thread and I couldn’t control the reaction. It was a defensive boundary reaction. Usually I go into freeze/shutdown. Apparently when you start coming out of freeze your body has to pass back through fight-or-flight. I think I’m learning to freeze less but as this happens I think an assertiveness is coming out as a fight/defence response. In the past, to get out of freeze, I have gone into flight mode and gotten in my car and travelled for days through remote and regional areas until I’ve exhausted the trauma response and regained some kind of equilibrium.

In my daily life I fluctuate between feeling like I’m managing and other times feeling overwhelmed. But I do think the pendulum is swinging a bit more to the managing side, so I think I’m going to be ok. But I can easily collapse into shame, such as when I upset the person on the other thread. Toxic shame is also a strong feature of C-PTSD and it really takes a lot to not collapse into it and get stuck there. But I am learning all the time and always try to keep growing from everything that happens in life.

I do have a strong fear of people which can be disruptive in my everyday life. I can sort of run away from ever being too close to people. It is easier here on this forum in a way where I am in cyberspace, a bit less terrifying than the face-to-face world. But I feel like I am making gradual progress. I think the boundary thing eventually starts to work itself out too, where it starts to automatically take care of itself and no longer seems like a difficult issue.

I imagine as a walrus tusks come in handy in defending one’s boundary. I just looked up why walruses have tusks. It’s apparently to defend against predators, fight opponents and to help climb onto the ice. I can see that they are very useful dentitions.

Hugs,

ER

[Emotions26]

Hello Eagle Ray,

I can relate to almost everything that you have written.

My diagnosis is not PTSD.

Mine is long term chronic trauma, prolonged grief and disenfranchised grief.

What a mouthful.

The amygdala is an incredible part of the brain and understanding how it protects us I personally find helps lessen the burden somewhat, at times.

Boundaries only really came about in the 80's.

Prior to that era it was as you mentioned way back learning from adult figures in our lives.

This of course is not clear as the struggles of the adults come into play if you are a person who senses and feels everything.

Manners, etiquette and respect play a strong role also.

So Boundaries for me I think that I even struggle with the word. Rather cumbersome.

Typical of me though I have to use my own language and even rename people unintentionally.

Life is but a challenge.

Ems

[Emotions26]

Apologies Flatlux and quirkywords I had said that I would respond.

My mind and words are all over the place.

Sleep deprived not a good recipe for responding to people.

I hope that I have not already upset anyone whom I have tried writing to.

Will be back when the eyes are open even if only temporarily

Ems

[Eagle Ray]

Hello Ems,

Yes, I also find understanding that our amygdala is trying to protect us helps. I find I cannot necessarily stop its reactions, but have to work out ways to manage its reactions. It’s quite difficult as the prefrontal cortex goes offline when in survival mode and only comes back online a while afterwards.

I think it’s fine to come up with your own language that describes your experience better. I haven’t been able to think of a better word than boundaries so I’m kind of stuck using it for now. In my case it probably is accurate as I had almost no sense of self in the past and therefore no self-protection. I was largely boundary-less. I also felt I had to do whatever anyone else wanted, regardless of whether it suited me or not. This is another classic Complex PTSD response that Pete Walker calls the fawn response. You feel you have to appease others and meet their needs and wants in the hope that they will be less likely to hurt you and in order to try and feel safe.

And don’t worry Ems, you haven’t caused any upset at all. You are always so thoughtful and reflective. I often think words themselves can be cumbersome in that language only ever approximates actual lived experience/feelings. Us humans have very complex language and thought processes. One thing that fascinates me is how music and art can communicate across language barriers. They can often communicate what words alone cannot. It’s possible to hear someone sing in a language you don’t know but to feel the emotion and be communicated with despite the language barrier. I often feel that feelings are more direct than words and I’m very interested in non-linguistic forms of communication. I’ve worked with a few non-verbal autistic children and there is a whole other way to relate and connect without words. I found with them too boundaries were a subtle, energetic thing. Some people didn’t sense their needs at all around things like sensory sensitivity, so from their perspective their sensory being was often impinged upon in a way that others couldn’t see or understand. Or others developed an awareness of that sensory sensitivity but still didn’t get it as an experience. I have quite extreme sensory sensitivity and have struggled with hyperacusis in particular which is extreme sound sensitivity. So I’m acutely aware of over stimulating environments and how they can affect vulnerable individuals.

I hope you can continue to find help and healing for the chronic trauma and grief Ems. I am trying to process complicated grief that continues to impact me everyday so I know it is a major journey. I’m trying to allow emotions to be and to move through. I think sometimes when you surrender to the emotion that is when it starts to dissipate and have less of a hold over you, if that makes sense?

Take care Ems,

ER

[Eagle Ray]

Hello again Croix,

I just wanted to say thank you for the penguin 🐧🙏 Somehow I missed that part of your message yesterday and only saw it today.

[Eagle Ray]

Hello again Ems,

 I just thought I’d mention a podcast I listened to tonight on grief that I found really helpful. In it they mention disenfranchised grief. I had never heard that term until you mentioned it the other day, but now I am learning about it I realise I think what you describe, both prolonged and disenfranchised grief, are what I’m experiencing also. The podcast is called the Wellbeing Lab with Will Young and the episode is simply entitled “Grief”. In it he is talking with Andy Langford who has worked in supporting people through grief and bereavement for 20 years. It was a gentle, caring discussion. I listened to his podcast on Complex PTSD the other night and that was also excellent.

Although sort of getting off the topic of boundaries in one way, I feel it is still relevant, as some of us have not been given the scope to grieve as we have needed to. Sometimes, for whatever reasons, our needs to feel and grieve as we’ve needed to have not been socially acknowledged and validated and I think that in itself can cause the grief process to get stuck. I’ve realised there is a need to find a way to grieve that helps us move through the experience and feel safely held through that experience. I feel like just listening to the podcast which was such a caring discussion helped me to feel safely held with my own grief.

Anyway, I just thought I would share that. It will come up on Apple Podcasts if you search for it and other platforms as well. Unfortunately there will be an annoying ad at the beginning, in the middle somewhere and at the end. I think what we often need is validation of our experience but unfortunately we may not get it from relatives, family friends etc for whatever reasons. Sometimes they may also grieve in a very different way to us, which is valid too. But it sometimes means we have to look elsewhere for a safe, protective holding space in which we can grieve with an empathetic understanding of our needs.

Please don’t feel obliged to listen to the podcast. Just putting it out there in case it’s helpful.

Take care,

ER

[Croix]

Dear EMS and ER~

A physical touch from another when in distress or feeling alone/alienated can do so much, as can someone who understands your thoughts

Without that -as you say ER - one can become suck, with no one to lead or just understand.

We here on the Forum are simply patches of text on a screen, but nevertheless are real people who are touched, understand and wish you well. We have been - or are still going - though the worst we have had ot face and want to simply be there for you.

If one says something that one is not happy with (here  I'm talking ot you ER) it is very like trying to type on a bumpy road. Have faith the your sincerity, experience and empathy shine though despite words forced out by strong feelings.

If a person gains enough form the Forum -and this is NOT becsue of just one person, then they will pop up again. If they do not then you tell me why -parents/patner objects - flat phone -found something better ...?. The list goes on and on

It is one if the hard things one has to deal with on the Forum when someone one has spoke with simply goes silent. I've been here around 10 years and still find that less easy to accept.

Try to enjoy what you can

Croix

[quirkywords]

Eagle Ray 

what a great thread which I have just discovered. I find boundaries hard.

I had an experience online on another forum with someone who I emailed for over 5 years.This person was challenging and would email me up to 15 or more a day and complain if I did not answer every one. There is a lot more but I knew this person had been let down and I said  I would be supportive. After the fires this person was still demanding and it was affecting my health so I stopped the communication. I feel a bit guilty but knew it was what I had to do. 
Tbanms everyone for their posts as it helps me on my journey. 

[Eagle Ray]

Hello dear Quirky, Croix and Ems,

Quirky, yes, boundaries can be quite tricky. I understand you not wanting to reply after a certain point. If it is affecting your health, and after the fires too, it makes sense to let go. Emailing you up to 15 times a day is too much. I find these things hard too. Not long after my mum died I had a friend wanting a lot of my attention when she was going through emotional states. I was often talking to her in the middle of the night when she was in a panic state and during the day as well, often for 2-3 hours at a time. I was trying to process grief as well as a recent traumatic event after mum died but I was expending so much energy taking care of her. Eventually I had to let go to save myself so to speak. I said I needed a break for two weeks, and on the two week mark exactly she was constantly contacting me again. Then I had to let go completely.

Croix, thank you for your thoughtful words. I was concerned the other person may now feel unwelcome. I was just trying to make my own boundary feel safe around not wanting to go into certain dark experiences. My ptsd fear gets triggered so intensely. It is so hard to explain to people if they don't get the same kinds of reactions in their nervous system. Two people can go through similar events and be impacted differently. I opened up to share about my mother which were my most personal and vulnerable feelings, and then what followed in response was about highly distressing experiences and my nervous system just short-circuited. I experience fear very constantly and then it will just go through the roof from what, on the face of it, seem relatively minor triggers. My instinct is to curl up in a ball in the corner of the room and shield myself. I can freeze for hours and not move. I can't answer my door, phone etc when I'm locked down like that. So for me boundaries are a really sensitive thing. People have either crossed them too readily with me and I haven't known how to stop it, or I completely shutdown to avoid the feeling of invasion and being so unsafe. I am trying to ease myself into a safe, balanced middle ground. Peter Levine uses a slinky to illustrate how this works in the nervous system. I won't try to explain here, but if you google "Peter Levine slinky" there are various videos showing him demonstrate it.

I think one of the ways we learn good boundaries is when we can co-regulate with others who have good boundaries. I think that begins to train our nervous system what is normal and healthy and what isn't. If our parents didn't model good boundaries we may have no idea how to handle these things in the world. I am so tentative to trust and I have to experience enough consistency with another person to know that the boundary might be safe, and even then I may not be entirely convinced. I remember watching a video of Peter Levine working with a war veteran with ptsd named Ray, and Ray said, "Trust is a heavy thing". For anyone carrying trauma, trust is really, really hard.

Anyway, thank you kind people for helping me be able to feel some trust. And yes Croix I must remember to try and enjoy whatever I can. Enjoyment of things is a great antidote to fear.

Hugs,

ER