C-PTSD and fear of people

[Eagle Ray]

Warning: possibly trauma activating content.

I have made significant improvements in complex trauma symptoms in the past year. One of my biggest fears is that people are going to harm me which is ever-present but had lessened a lot. Then on Monday I got triggered by something that is probably not harmful but activated terror in me. It’s too much to explain the context here.

Do others have this extreme fear of people and if so is there something that you’ve found helps you?

To me it is experienced as life threatening terror. I can feel my body literally recoil from any contact with humans. Animals are safe to me but not humans. I have experienced a lot of trauma throughout my life.

Over the past week I’ve had unrelenting anxiety which yesterday also became depression which I know is a result of the anxiety not resolving. I want to run away from all people and go somewhere remote in nature. I’m also dealing with bouts of cognitive confusion linked to an autoimmune condition I have which isn’t helping.

I know self-isolation is not a good or healthy long term strategy. However, I want total isolation from people right now. It is the only way I can feel safe. It can feel like this is the only way I can be safe in life, to avoid people as much as possible, even though there is part of me that loves people and wants connection. But right now connection feels profoundly dangerous. I am back in the centre of my childhood terror.

Right now the Bruce Springsteen song Brothers Under the Bridge is speaking to me in which a Vietnam veteran tries to explain his need for isolation to his daughter. I think my grandfather was like this in how he isolated from others following traumatic war experiences. I think I’m trying to work my way out of this inherited intergenerational trauma as well.

[divine_inner_goddess]

Hi TonyWK, 

Thanks for your message. Yes, that's a good idea to monitor my activity here depending on my capabilities.

I can understand the jump for joy. It feels to good to realise that the problem isn't oneself, it's the other person. And therefore, can be handed back to the other person.

Take care, 

dig 

[Eagle Ray]

Dear dig,

 I’m sorry for what you’ve been through with the breakdown and work. I’m glad your psychologist gets it now and you are back on the same page again.

 I relate to what you say about trusting the way forward to work itself out. It’s a real challenge for me balancing my health with work. I’ve made big improvements in the last couple of weeks. Not long before that I was still very debilitated. I’m not sure what the future holds but I think following intuition seems to be what works, always listening to the heart, body and spirit (not just the mind which in my experience tends to get it wrong if I rely on it alone).

 I really get that feeling where even the smallest pressure is too much. I’m gradually learning to advocate for myself instead of acquiescing always to the pressures and expectations of others. I’m learning it’s really necessary.

 I’m so glad you went on an adventure, saw a whale and lots of birds and went for a swim. I’m finding changes of scene help me at the moment and maybe you are finding that too visiting a different beach. Wishing you more enjoyable adventures! Take care, ER

[divine_inner_goddess]

Hi Eagle Ray, 

I'm sorry to hear that it's been challenging balancing health and work. I saw in other posts that you have a few chronic conditions, the liver disease and the fibromyalgia. I'm glad you got the centrelink exemption to give you some breathing space to recover some health.   

YES! I am learning to advocate for myself too, rather than do what others are expecting of me. Yes, I agree that it is very necessary. For me, it feels kinda new because I have spent much of my life people pleasing and it feels strange to be saying to my practitioners - 'no, that's not right for me'. I like the phrase 'advocating for oneself'. It's like standing up for yourself when no-one else will. I wouldn't have been able to do that as a child, and have found it difficult throughout my adult life. In many of my work roles I have been an advocate for other people and it feels nice to be advocating now for myself and my needs. And following the intuition is so important.   

Take care, 

dig

And the change of scenery was inspired by your posts about your trip, so thank you for that.   

[white knight]

Hi all,

I think, expectations from others robs us of our freedoms. The origins of expectations imo comes from a parent that is unrealistic on their childs performance in - chores, admiration/respect etc. However having analysed my estranged mother intensely for decades I've realised I could never fulfil her expectations. That meant every time I tried to satisfy her even up to 55yo when I last saw her  12 years ago, she'd 'raise the bar'. That says a lot about her than it does me.

Standing up for ones self isnt natural for many of us. Retired now I often look back on my working life and have many regrets on how I allowed bosses to treat me poorly, took advantage of my kind nature to pour extra workload onto me rather than spread it out among the objectionable workers. 

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/wit-the-only-answer-for-torment/td-p/71440

Using wit, as mentioned in the above link is one method of reacting to those that need their dominating behaviour to be addressed. My ex GF hated my hobby to extraordinary levels. We eventually went to marriage counselling and I told the counsellor that. She looked at my GF and asked "so, do you have a passion". 5 words that would result in my GF trying to justify her treatment of me. I'll never forget the feeling when we left that ladys office that as my Gf didn't have a hobby/passion she wanted to deny me having one and couldnt relate to the feeling of always wanting to be creative, in my case building model airplanes. Although I had found her behaviour annoying I had doubted myself that I should allow myself to have the hobby such was her convincing manner. She expected me to give it up for her greater happiness. 

In my childhood some methods of punishment were extraordinary. The more I enjoyed a past time say playing with my corgi and matchbox cars the greater chance I'd be denied them when naughty. Plus the dreaded slaps of course. At 15yo I stood in one spot while my mother wound up her right arm to slap my on the calves and I said "is that the best you've got"? My first taste of freedom of standing tall.

Yes, expectations, the silent standards of the unreachable used by some to hold onto power...

TonyWK

[Eagle Ray]

Dear dig and Tony,

Dig, I’m happy if my trip has inspired you to pursue some adventure. Last night and this morning I finalised my next trip plans already! I’ll be off again in a bit less than two weeks. It helped me so much and I want to keep doing what is helping. I’ve found ways to travel inexpensively and I’m following my intuition about where I want to go.

 I relate to what you both say about not knowing in the past how to advocate for yourself. It’s a very new experience for me to be doing it, like learning it for the first time.

What you said about wit Tony is very relevant to me too. So many times I’ve been lost for words when treated badly by others. I also would inadvertently attract people into my life who would do exactly that, treat me badly/exploitively. I learned in childhood not to stand up for myself because the consequences would be horrendous.

I’m so sorry your Mum treated you how she did. You reminded me of my Dad coming up behind me and hitting me when I was 5 for no reason. I crashed into the wall and he said, “sorry but you deserved it.” Random attacks like that were a part of life. In some ways my mother’s verbal attacks were worse as they were very personalised, whereas Dad’s were generalised rage. To this day I often flinch if a man raises his arm to scratch his head, like I’m waiting to get hit. And I’m always waiting for verbal attacks. In my recent volunteer work an employee approached me to be friendly and ask how I was. But my first thought was, she is going to criticise me and tell me I’ve done something wrong.

But the good news is I can feel I am learning to de-program myself from this early conditioning. I can’t always stop the automated responses but I catch myself being caught in those responses much more quickly. I can self-soothe and remind myself that I’m not about to be harmed. And on the occasion someone isn’t treating me so well, I think I’m starting to grow some wit, even though there’s still a way for me to go in responding effectively in the moment. But I’m learning to work with my gut instincts, sense when something isn’t right and act in my own interests.

 I’m seeing my psych in a couple of days and we’re going to look at this sort of thing. She is helping me learn to sense in my body when I can trust someone or not, or simply get a sense of the other person by working with my intuition. I’m trying to learn how to not be afraid and have my wits about me to protect myself wisely.

 I really think we can grow these skills even later in life, and it feels so empowering once you realise you have options you didn’t feel like you had before, such as prioritising yourself and being able to protect yourself. I find each time I act in my own interests, everything gets better. In the past I used to actually feel guilty acting in my own interests. I’m learning to ask myself what do I need and then going for it. I still have my fears of people that come up, but little by little I’m chipping away at that too.

[white knight]

So interesting ER,

I dont know if I've mentioned this before- my therapist in 1987 identified with my unrealistic thoughts causing anxiety. 

In your case the raising of a mans hand to scratch his head is a reflex fear created by your father and rightly so, how terrible. That would be inground and difficult to treat. The gut instaincts is what I rely on all the time, bneing an ex prison officer I sense things not right, people that are dangerous or ulterior motives etc. Then I get disappointed in myself when I dont see the fraudulent. The worst cases involve priests that proved they were paedophiles and I knew them. The mask behind the mask.

In relation to your last paragraph, you havent given up on continuing to advance your abilities. I identify with that but I've also been a good advocate of corralling myself from undesirables. I have a neighbour and we swap food when we cook. We like her but the company she keeps is questionable so the conversations dont extend very long, I'm constantly stepping back trying to terminate the chatter.   Self protection is so important and it has also led to terminating relationships if they prove toxic. My mother 12 years ago, my sister last year and predominately one way relationships that annoy me, such is the life of an empath.

It's difficult to be so confident removing people from your life, there is a tendency to feel guilt, but its is a feeling of cleansing and reduction of complexities I can do without. This action feels like I'm slowly hermitising which I conclude is better than the alternative of being a social butterfly unable to find stability and calm when conversing with so many. 

So, when I do socialise it's in a state of constant awareness that this person I'm enjoying chatting to could, in a moment, say something that will cut deep for whatever reason. "Be ready Tony" is said internally. That's where the wit comes into play.

One such case recently a acquaintance said "Surely you could have cladded your home better with brick, what were you thinking"? (We built our home by ourselves 3 years ago on a strict budget) to which I replied "well what did you clad your house with when you built yours"?  He replied "I've never built a house". "Anyway got to move on catch you soon". I know he left my company quite thrown that he realise he criticised my house build having never built a garden shed let alone a house. Yes I had a little guilt confronting him but he should have more guilt in saying "what were you thinking". If he has any conscience he'll apologise next time but I dont expect it. He just walked through my revolving door and entered a Pidgeon hole labelled "nasty".

The life of the sensitive.

TonyWK 

[Eagle Ray]

Dear Tony,

Yes, I remember you mentioning the unrealistic thoughts causing anxiety before. This is gradually diminishing for me but I can still get the impulse reactions at times.

 I very much relate with what you say about sensing discomfort with certain people and feeling yourself wanting to put a boundary there, such as the neighbour you feel a bit uneasy with. I started this thread in response to a trigger from such a person. It sent me into a total spin and it’s what led me to get in my car and go on a road trip to escape people in general. This person has since made further contact with me and I’ve found my instincts were correct. I’ve done the right thing keeping my distance based on the content of their communication.

 I agree that the guilt of putting up boundaries can be challenging. But the consequences of not doing so can be greater. I can sense I’ve reached a point of no longer being able to tolerate any behaviour that is exploitive, manipulative or controlling. I’m also learning to identify when someone claiming to do something for my benefit is actually being self-serving and using me to get their own needs met. I’m also realising this is not always done maliciously by others (though sometimes is) but often in an implicit, unconscious way where they have latched onto me because I’m kind to them. They are kind of feeding off me to serve themselves while not really seeing me at all. If a person starts to feel parasitic, draining or invasive, I now know that’s a major red flag and a situation I want to avoid.

All of this comes back to how I was exploited as a child. I was taught not to trust my instincts then and did not have a good example of how to be in the world including how to protect myself. Healthy functioning parents will naturally instill healthy functioning instincts in their children and model wise behaviour and healthy boundaries. I had two male relatives who attempted to groom me as a child and my parents didn’t protect me from their behaviour. Fortunately I was never completely alone with either of them. But I later learned that one had molested his stepdaughter for several years and the other went to prison for molesting a teenager. They creeped me out as a child, yet I wasn’t taught to be wary of them or how to identify predatory people. Therefore I’ve easily become prey for others for way too long. But I think our animal instincts remain that tell us when something isn’t right and I’m now listening to that.

 I like what you said to the person who commented about your house. Yes, you probably won’t get an apology but he will most likely think twice about saying anything like that again. It is that unpleasant experience of someone else judging you and sometimes you have to bite back, so to speak, to let them know they can’t talk to you in a judgemental way. Responding in the moment is good as it sets the boundary there and then, and you are not left with the awful feeling of being judged and not having defended yourself. I am trying more and more to respond in the moment. In the past I would just feel lost and dumbfounded by people’s comments and that was like a license for them to keep treating me the same way. People are starting to learn I won’t tolerate being treated rudely or unkindly.

 I think there is a balance there somewhere between being intuitively aware of others while not necessarily assuming others will cause harm. I’m trying to find that balance myself that involves staying open to people and not being fearful but always still being in contact with my instincts and listening to them. It’s still a work in progress. It’s true, it’s challenging being sensitive. But I also feel that sensitivity opens us to the wonders of life too and we get to enjoy things that others don’t even notice. Like our lives are also enriched by being sensitive. So I think there’s sort of a silver lining to it all.

[white knight]

Since my 1st marriage separation, 1996, that prompted me to, as the need arose, develop problem solving on all levels including people. One huge problem I had ongoing was trusting people before being proved otherwise. This I put down to being empathetic and kind- well isn't everyone?. This was so entrenched that I'd survived the prison service and kept that view of people. Obviously not an ideal profession for me but post that job beyond 24yo, i worked on reversing my outlook on strangers. The pinnacle was meeting an ex inmate in a not so friendly manner. Anyway I suppose being constantly hurt by people, bossy, manipulating, turns you eventually.

The "balance" you are seeking in your judgements of strangers is not unlike what normal people have from a healthy upbringing. However if we do have a vision of what that fine line is if we reached it I think we'd lose some of our individuality. A sheep isn't such a good breed. 100 individuals might think one stranger is a great guy but your gut feeling tells you no. I've been proved time and time again my gut is accurate. So, your gut regarding spontaneous feelings or reservations as you haven't met him enough times to feel safe is all good, it's you, it's OK.

Controlling and manipulative people? I noticed some years ago Americans often labelled people narcissists. I thought at the time it was over the top, now I don't. I think those personas are common and you have every right to reject them. Your holidays without people is self protection, less people less risk. We caravan a lot, it's rarer to meet such toxics but I do meet old ladies that cause hair on my back to rise. 

TonyWK 

[Eagle Ray]

Hi Tony,

 I agree, listening to the gut is paramount. Looking back my gut instincts have always been correct. What has been wrong is the voice in my head saying it’ll probably be fine, everything will be ok etc. My gut knew all along. I hesitated in relation to having more to do with the person I’m currently dealing with because of the gut feeling which was very strong, and I know that was the right thing now. I’m maintaining my boundary and distance.

 I wonder if your sensitivity to picking these things up is from your own upbringing that has possibly made you more sensitised to certain kinds of individuals? I used to think the term narcissism was thrown about a bit too much too. But it is a real thing. It’s really good to be able to read and recognise it.

A pattern I’ve fallen into a lot has been inadvertently attracting people into my life who are looking for someone to take care of them in a similar way to what my mother did. I used to not realise until it was way too late and the person had entrenched themself into my life as much as possible. Now I’m catching the pattern sooner. I find these people are not necessarily narcissists but very needy, desperate and clingy. It has caused me so much stress in the past. I’m learning now when it is absolutely necessary to put up a boundary and keep it in place. I can fall into the trap of feeling sorry for them, being sensitive to their feelings while not listening properly to my own. But I am glad I am becoming more astute.

On my travels I often stay in one room places in caravan parks where you have a room but shared kitchen and bathroom facilities. This works out cheaper than staying in full-size cabins or chalets, but also means meeting other people in the caravan park more. I agree that meeting caravanning people, they generally seem to be a good bunch. Perhaps they are people really interested in the countryside and seeing the world around them. The old ladies you mention made me laugh!

 I like the idea of a motor home I could travel around Australia in. They are not cheap though, even the small ones, and the second-hand ones have done so many km you wonder if it would be a good idea buying one. It’s something I fantasise about though. I could happily stay on the road for long periods of time. I’ve realised I’m naturally a nomad and in my element on the move.

[white knight]

I'm enjoying this. To all other reading dont shy away from joining in.

I was always over sensitive. In the male world, RAAF, Prison warder, dog ranger etc, I hid it well. But a brilliant psych interviewed me in 2009 following 6 years of believing I had ADHD. False!. My diagnosis was bipolar2, dysthymia, clinical depression and traces of anxiety (I largely conquered that last one. During the interview he asked me about my childhood, it was my wife that mentioned the swimming incident.

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/depression/sad-all-the-time-dysthymia/td-p/324717

So, dysthymia triggered by a life/death incident in a backyard pool. Dysthymia might interest you ER if you think it is along the lines that your sensitivity has originated. HSP is another.

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/depression/highly-sensitive-people-hsp/td-p/480942

Those people that are clingy, mmm, I get it and in that situation I'd try to slow them down. But I have to admit I was the same. I seemed to fall in love on the first date in the KFC car park. So I had lots of trouble finding the right girl. I developed a formula (serious). because most girls in their 20's earned more than me, teachers, nurses etc. My forula comprise dof 3 requirements.

1/  Within 3 dates they had to buy a meal.

2/ One date was a drive in the country in my red convertible- she had to like the baby animals like lambs and birds

3/ I would take her to a movie I'd already seen. In 1983 it was Purple Rain by Prince. So, at an emotional point in the movie I'd turn and ask "what do you think of the movie"? (it was the scene when his dad self harmed). A girl I dated form work commented at the movie "I dont like black people". So she was driven home pronto. But my future 1st wife that had already passed requirements 1 and 2 said "its so sad, I love it"... Bingo. 8 months later we married.

Seeing as we lasted 11 years before divorce the moral of the story is- add the following requirements-

4/ Ensure she isnt lazy

5/ Pedantic

6/ Heavy smoker

7/ Like science fiction

8/ 

9/

10/

11/

...201

Now, caravans. I've built 2 and now we have one we bought last year. IMO if you can do without an ensuite then the Avan Weekender or Aliner is amazing. They only take 30 seconds to erect and hard roof. If you need an ensuite then Jurgens Sungazer is a great van. We free cmap or low cost. Best thing to do is download the WIKICAMP App for around $10. That shows you all the free/low cost campsites and tells you everything about them.

TonyWK