Which comes first ? Alcholism or Depression (or cheese biscuits) ?

[The_Real_David_Charles]

I'm long term bipolar and am currently supporting a depressive son.    There is no support from my O/S family.  But they are well supported to the point of addiction by alcohol.    Many a contact ends in drunken tirade or judgement calls.  But none of these family members have been diagnosed with depression or other mental health issues (apart from being English).

Is it a complete waste of time to deal with such difficult relatives ?   I've had 3 previous suicide attempts so don't feel such abuse bodes well for my own health, which is actually OK at present.   Stress triggers the crap out of us, so to speak.  Is there a way of keeping in with my loser English relatives whilst maintaining a calm and healthy support to my Aussie family ?

Adios, David.

PS   Am I jumping the gun to think that the alcohol in this situation is masking what was a very abusive childhood, emotionally and physically for all my brothers and sister ?  Is this there way of "connecting" with hard times ?  Can I have the cheese biscuits now ?

[geoff]

dear David Charles, mf, firstly I hope and wish that your son is improving, but that's really a stupid statement, but you know what I mean.

To your question for me alcohol comes first, and I only say this because when we feel the heaviness of becoming niggly, and our thoughts are of negativity, or the loss of someone, or the retrenchment matter you can use alcohol as a numbing to reduce our feeling of becoming sad, but this sadness continues for a couple of days, which turn into weeks and then months so we become depressed.

I'm not sure that we just wake up one morning with depression, although looking back we can say this, however, we go through the stages of being unhappy, then becoming sad-----------------------------------------------------------and then depressed, after this long period of time.

Send our regards to your son, and I certainly hope that it's not pulling you down, well with bipolar for 25 years it's understandable.

By the way my 2 days at the week-end were OK, but it rained, and my roof has a hole in it, as guess where it drips, right on top of my pillow, instant shower. Geoff.

[The_Real_David_Charles]

Dear Geoff,

Things are looking up.  My son's depression is now allowing him to get up at 11am instead of noon.

There was a wedding (oldest brothers) in my family once and I sent a couple of hundred dollars over to my sister to do a big present.   She scammed me and stole the lot.   Then I had to put up with all the "Why didn't you buy you brother a present, your sooo mean ?" questions.   I finally got to grips with this small family moment and even asked for a "refund" as we are finding it a bit tricky (with my wifes' research) to pay for stuff this month.

So,  here's the deal - will my apalling sister (with her drunken ways) come clean and support my son's medication bills with the stolen wedding money ?  Kind of reads like a plot from Home and Away.  But really, does anyone out there have a conscience anymore ?   It's mostly the small things that really bug us or trigger suicidal ideation.

Adios, David.

PS  Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier - I was in the Related Disorder section being King Bipolar !  Lol.   How's the wet rain on that pillow ? Maybe you can sleep on your front with the two dogs on the back of your head and neck for waterproofing.

[geoff]

dear David Charles, my friend, I now rent after doing up house after house, spec. homes, so the leak is still there, 'rain drops keep falling on my head', so I have to wait for the plumber to fix it again.

I know how you feel about lending money to a family member, my brother in law, a lawyer was going bankrupt (believe it) but he was, so my wife said that we would lend him some money, and this was to the tune of $ 66k in different lots, money we had made on doing up spec homes, no thank you, and no repayment, not even a dollar, and that was twenty years ago, which probably started the downfall for me, plus other factors.

I really hope that you get your money back, and I really wish the best for your son. Geoff.

[S_A_D_]

Hello David,  

firstly you are correct that there is a correlation between mental illness and drug use. More specifically there is a correlation between depression and soft drugs, including alcohol. In many cases the excessive consumption of drugs is a significant contributing factor to developing a mental illness, but not always. 

Some cases of depression involve no drugs at all, including alcohol, as evidenced by the kind of severe childhood depression I experienced. I then started consuming drugs as an escape and that contributed to more bad stuff, major depression and a variety of others. Obviously many people drink alcohol to excess and don't develop depression. This means alcohol is neither sufficient nor necessary for the development of depression in all cases, and having depression is neither sufficient nor necessary to developing alcoholism in all cases. Nevertheless, I would expect strong causal relationships in both directions, and a high incidence of feedback loops. In those cases it can be hard to distinguish which came first. 

When it's raining, how do you distinguish between a drizzle and a sprinkle? At what point can you say it's definitely a monsoon? Was I depressed when I had my first drink to take the edge off the pain, or did the association learned about alcohol relieving pain accentuate the pain once the alcohol had worn off, thereby motivating alcoholism and generating a depressive state? 

As for your family issues, open lines of communication in writing. Keep everything sent and received. Explicitly state what you need from each of them (one at a time, or they will collude; go after the biggest fish first), and stipulate these as conditions under which you will reestablish a relationship. Draw up a contract of behaviour. Be willing to alter some of your own behaviour to the best of your ability as they have stipulated. There will be much argument, both sides will make unreasonable demands. Expect refusals. Anticipate this by intentionally asking for outrageous limitations, then yield, and use your display of goodwill to get them to yield on key points you consider unreasonable. 

You set the schedule. Don't let them pressure you into anything until you're ready. Control your stress levels by pacing yourself. Don't let the argument turn into a fight. Be diplomatic and assertive. Say "I need this from you, and if you don't know how to give it you will learn. I can help you learn, but you must be willing and cooperative. If you resist me we will get nowhere." 

Thank you for your attention.  you may now have one, and only one, cheese biscuit. You may then have the rest of the packet while writing a reply.

[The_Real_David_Charles]

Dear Facetious,

If I may say, sound advice (again) but couldn't help thinking that "Draw up a contract of behaviour" takes the biscuit, cheese or otherwise.  I'd prefer the bad communication to litigation.    I don't feel I have to alter my behaviour as I gave this money a while back - the behaviour has already happened.   Just thought it would be honoured as a wedding present, not sucked into drinking money.   You may have missed the point on this one a little bit. The Wedding was in 2007 !

I guess when you give a relative money it's for the best intentions although I've got no control over whether it will end up being used for the worst intentions.

Your manner is very similar to an old time responder called Lynthi.  She was a great debater and often preferred the 8 paragraphs of reasoning to a simple sentence too.  She left in Dec 2011.    But your responses have a more Aspergers - I must put EVERYTHING down in a correct fashion - kind of vibe.  Have you been tested for Aspergers ?   I'm not sure if I'm right here, but the feel is a bit stretched.  Observations only.

Is there a benefit in over thinking with mental health ?  Do you have a partner to support you ?  I have been married over 20 yrs with 3 teenage kids.

Adios, David.

[The_Real_David_Charles]

Post Note:    It's too easy for family to say "Oh, he/she's a bit mental" if they get put on the spot about something, i.e  stealing money.  Or just block emails.  Not answer the phone.  Whatever happened to good old days in the Wild West when you could start a brawl in a bar, win the girl and wear thigh length leather boots all day and even at night to sleep in ?  Quiet nights listening to baked beans being digested.

Adios, David.  

[S_A_D_]

Hello David,

I didn’t mean litigation. I didn’t mean involving lawyers and a judge. But you knew that. You were being facetious, right? I would also prefer strained communication over an international court case.

I’m also not talking about this specific case involving the money. Most of the time when people make complaints regarding the inappropriate behaviour of others, it is based on the fear that the same type of behaviour will be repeated in the future, and this anxiety is usually justified. 

A person almost never does anything that they believe to be wrong at the time they do it, so they may not be aware you have judged them to be inappropriate. If they are, they will likely try to defend their choices. The escape plan for this exchange of judgement and defence leading into a conflict is through negotiation. It is likely that there is something they would prefer you to change about yourself. Your job is to decide if their request is an acceptable cost compared with what you want them to change. 

Following such negotiations, the #1 fear is that the other side will fail to uphold their promise. The use of a written contract stipulating the requested behaviour be altered is an explicit method of psychological reinforcement for reminding all involved parties of the agreement. If a party still fails to uphold their side of the agreement, the other party can use this evidence as a bargaining chip for future arrangements. There need never be a single person from any legal background involved in the exchange.

This gives you a small element of control over how the money you give is used.

I have learned over the years that when something is explained explicitly and overtly, there is a much lower likelihood of misunderstanding. As we have just witnessed above, miscommunication still occurs. This is my cue to explain things even more explicitly. Once understanding is achieved, the recipient may do whatever they like with the information. It is through this process that I could teach quantum mechanics or Shakespearean poetry to a 4 year old. It has also helped me to learn patience. 

The way I fashion my expressions of reasoning has 2 clear advantages. It promotes and stimulates my vocabulary and syntax skills, which has helped enormously in articulating advanced concepts into short sentences. In the scientific process, brevity is king. However I also need to be able to move freely up and down the scale of complexity, and for obvious reasons explaining a complex process in simple language requires many paragraphs. A brief message in simple language cannot reasonably be used to explain a theoretical concept beyond representations of ostensive and operational definitions. It is usually reserved for responses to explicit questions and when people are trying to meet and talk in person. It would be difficult to apply either here with noteworthy frequency.

How much do you know about the medical principle of comorbidity? I have no less than a dozen major illnesses, each interacting with each other. 5 of these are physical, with 2 being genetically inherited. 1 condition is due to 2 separate and serious head injuries. The remainder of the 12-15 are psychological, and the 3 dozen medical professionals who have tried to diagnose me over just the last 3 years have been unable to clearly distinguish between them in order to identify me as this or that. I have had 5 major diagnoses confirmed, and then withdrawn as misdiagnoses, in a 12 month period. I have tried roughly 40 different medications, almost all of which either had no positive effect or made me worse in some way. Most had no effect at all. I have extremely high tolerances, and was told any further increases in dosage would be toxic.

I am 31. Every day I struggle to survive. Every day I struggle to find reasons to want to survive. Most days, with some effort, I find a reason sufficient to motivate me. I have been this way my entire life. 

I have never slept next to someone I loved and trusted, besides during my infancy. My childhood was absent of most expressions of nurturance. This lack of nurturing parental figures led to a lack of individuals from whom I could model nurturing behaviour via imitation. Therefore, intimacy feels unnatural for me. My recognition of this has led to an educational endeavour to learn nurturance through formal training. This began 5 years ago when I started a job as a taxi driver to observe the widest possible subset of the population behaving “normal”. I’m now at university studying psychology, philosophy and anthropology.

Under Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, love in the form of intimacy is out of reach until I have established sufficient foundations with the lower levels. Google Maslow’s needs to understand this. If a lower level is absent, the absence of higher levels is irrelevant.I suggest you apply this same hierarchy to your issues with family. Where do you think trust sits relative to generosity? The reliability of people to behave a certain way relies on their consistent demonstration of that behaviour, unless that person has a strong enough motivation to change their behaviour. If you want your family to change their behaviour, the most reliable methodology is to give them an incentive, and closely observe whether they are compliant. From across the world the only way I can think of to achieve this is via a written and signed agreement.

I acknowledge your right to refuse and/or disregard this advice, but I only ask that you consider the content of the suggestion, irrespective of the tainted source from which it comes from (me). This strategy has worked for me in the past, but it has also strained relationships further in other cases.

take care friend

[The_Real_David_Charles]

Dear Facetious,

I'd have to pass.

I'm living with someone studying a 2nd Ph D in Music & the Brain and hear enough psychology to string Christmas Lights up from Adelaide to Darwin and back..

Still, you're thoughts are totally valuable and I'm sure will resonate further when in a more archive section of the website.

Adios, David.

PS  That's a lot of different meds to try in a short time.  One book on depression I read once ("Beating the Blues") by a Californian opted out of all meds and decided to buy a horse instead.   Worked for her.  Animals are great therapy.

[S_A_D_]

That is so very true about animals, proven beyond all doubt in almost every possible type of psychology research. I'm not allowed to have pets, so I try really hard to interact with animals outside of the home environment, but it's still rare. There are almost no wild animals (except birds) in cities ideal for interactivity. I've tried interacting with lizards and insects, but it's not the same, and I need to stay close to uni for study, so I can't move to the country and live on a farm or whatever.