Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[sparhawk29]

the big problem with men and depression is not so much we can't talk about it, it's who can we talk about it to? i've lost "friends" when i was at my lowest, because they just weren't interested in realising that i needed help. in the end, i had to "man up" and keep the problems to myself, which isn't a healthy environment. regardless of who it may be, it's when the person feels alone, that they are at their weakest, and that's a reason we have such high suicide rates as a whole. i also don't believe it's so much ignorance, as it is a lack of understanding. it becomes ignorance when the people that don't understand then choose not to so they can fit in with the society standards, which is how it becomes an unwritten rule. men can't talk or feel, etc... it's also how and why the political issues never get fixed, and why a man needing support as a victim of domestic abuse, is actually treated as a perpetrator because men can't be victims etc.....

no matter who we are, we all need a shoulder on occasions, because even the strongest person will buckle under the weight of their own worlds if the weight becomes too much.

it was asked earlier in the post if we think suicide with women lessened, or if men increased.. personally, i don't think it's so much "increased", as we're more aware of how often it happens now but the cry for help goes unnoticed, because all the signs were missed. i also think we're also way more aware of the issues, because there's been alot of celebrity suicides, and most that i can remember being reported were actually males. these are famous people! how could their worlds be so messed up that death is the only way?? right there is a perfect way of showing how everyone sees it.... regardless of circumstances, everyone feels.

sometimes too i think i'm just raving here, but just being able to actually talk and be allowed to feel is helping alot.

[HamSolo01]

Sparhawk29

I want to echo everything you have just said. I agree.

I've had that experience with other men too I should say. I didn't make that clear in my previous post. It's what we are afraid of that prevents us talking out.

Funnily enough as I write this I am avoiding a social situation. I could've gone to watch the world cup match with a friend but I am not. Why? Simple really. Shame. Shame of who I am as a male. What do I mean by that? Well I dont have a proper job. I'm not built for constant social interaction. But this doesn't mean I don't want friends. There is a lot of conflict in this for me. I am ashamed of who I am as a man and having to interact with new people is something I struggle with as part of my mental health. I have to talk about how I've only just graduated after 5 years. I have to talk about how I work at a crappy call centre. I have try to manipulate my own self esteem just to make myself seem better. Fear you see? Fundamentally linked to who I am as a man. Shame.

When we categorise people I believe we do so because it is in our nature. It's evolutionary psychology, we need to label each other in the social hierarchy. It isn't to say that those towards the bottom of it are less deserving than those on top, but it is to say that we have a tendency to respect on top and less so for those in the bottom.

So let's say I rock up to this thing. I tell people I just completed my degree and I'm now looking for work. Sounds okay right? But here's the thing, I'm not okay with it. It's something I fundamentally hate about myself. It's triggered by social instances where I have to present a certain way. How is this tied to masculinity? Simple. A man isn't a mess. A man isn't on the verge of financial collapse. A man is in control of his emotional health and a man is in control of his life. That's the social pressure. That's what leads to male suicide.

So how do we fix that? Well we start talking about mental health. Generally. We educate people. THEN we minimalise the gap between mental health as a concept where "other people are effected by it" and the reality that people who have mental health issues are human beings.

Sorry if I veered off course. I'm finding it very hard not to because it's serious stuff we are talking about

[Doolhof]

Hi HamSolo and All,

I'm wondering how many people really expect men to be able to have their lives totally in their control? Or is that an expectation people put on themselves male or female.

Coming from a country origin, I have seen men battle the elements, themselves, finances, the weather, farming life. I do not think any less of any man who has struggled to keep their head above water for any reason.

It is only reality that all people suffer from financial, social, emotional, mental and physical collapse.

Maybe expectations are different in relation to where you live, your occupation, way of life and so on.

Why do we have to present a certain way? Why can't we just be ourselves? Can we do any better than we are do at each moment of our lives with what we currently have available to us?

Hopefully the males of this new generation will feel more comfortable being who ever they are and will learnt o reach out for help and re4alise they are cert6ainly worthy of it!

Cheers all from Dools

[Quercus]

Oh dear. I'm all new medded (huh that should be a word) up so forgive me if I offend. I probably will.

Mrs D I agree. I think growing up rural has changed how I see the male/female issue too. It's not always a matter of man's duty. Woman's duty. But of a team chipping in so everyone has food on the table, a roof overhead and a chance to be healthy and educated. Growing up men and women's roles were divided unless things were tough. Then we all had to do whatever was required. I was told my Dad's idea of changing nappies was taking us outside and hosing us off even in winter. But needs must. If he was required to care for us kids he did.

I don't measure success by money or things and don't judge people by this either. Mitch (Hamsolo) you're no less of a man for not being secure. You've just got jerk friends of they judge that. You can be anxious and have friends that understand. You don't have to change to suit others.

Also.. The idea of abuse. I saw a fight a few days ago waiting at the lights kids in car. The police were on their way. A big drunk group. A man punched a woman in the face and arm. The woman then smashed him in the head with a glass bottle of booze.

My point.... As a woman I am keenly aware of my physical limitations. I don't doubt others are too. We adapt! It is ridiculous to say the man was at fault more than the woman. Her attack was vicious. Both were equally as disgusting.

As a girl I watched and learned from women around me and in the media. You aren't as strong. Find a weapon. Use your words to cut. Ridicule hurts. Rejection hurts. Sex as a weapon. Silent treatment. Jealousy as a weapon. Using kids as punishment. The list goes on and on. Obviously this is a huge list of the flaws of every woman I've ever met and I'm guilty too. Then again I've also used force when my friend called his mate a "fa**ot".

Every person. Me too. Is capable of being cruel and abusive.

On that note. I'm finally tired. Thank goodness. Goodnight.

[HamSolo01]

Interesting points @Quercus (Nat)

I think the issues about money and finance and independence in general are tied to my own desires and wants. I think the masculinity part comes about as a side issue. Does that make srnse? I feel less of a man due to the insecurity and the money. In the end it's not a be all and end all for me because I am now at a point where I like to think I don't care too much what others think. However, when it comes to seeming competent and knowing what I want in my life.. Thats when I am ashamed.

I'm just airing thoughts here really.

YYou know your story there about what you saw at the traffic lights got me thinking. Reminded me of a domestic argument I saw in a car park once. It was truly scary. The man was yelling and carrying on towards his partner who was in the car. I'm. Not sure what it was about but to be behaving like that was obviously serious and pretty bad.

I thought about how scared that woman was but after hearing what you said Quervus I got thinking maybe she did stuff to him too. Again, not a justification for his behaviour towards her - but people tend to think that any discussion about women being violent towards men must mean you want to justify violence. It's simplistic and doesn't impress me.

I think the issue for men is understanding how to express emotional dissatisfaction and uncomfort. That's the problem. Only men can talk with other men about how to do this.

The psychology of bullying in women towards women is best scene in high school. The way women bully each other is scary. It's far more damaging. I think this is because women tend to have a higher level of emotional affect. That's biological really.

Whilst social setting and culture definitely contribute to our perceptions of what is 'male' and what is 'female' I think science and brain development are important factors

[Doolhof]

Hi Mitch and All,

Ha. Ha. I had a little laugh about your comment relating to girls at high school Mitch. Believe me, it starts the moment you step into school! Some of the girls at our school were horrid right from grade 1. I used to go off and play footy with the boys as the girls were so nasty!

It always amazed me that a so called best girl friend could be you truest friend one moment and want to rip your hair out the next second. This would continue on for weeks! Mouthfuls of abuse and being bashed by her and her female friends.

I would have an argument with a boy and it would be done and dusted in a minute! No repercussions, just get back on with the game you were playing.

Do boys learn from such an early age that their issues don't matter or do guys deal with things totally differently, but then when it all becomes too much they have no male role models to use as an indication of how they can express themselves?

I wonder if it is the same for all cultures?

Cheers all from Dools

[HamSolo01]

Hey @Doolhof

I would just like to say that I think you've hit the nail directly on the head with this statement:

Do boys learn from such an early age that their issues don't matter or do guys deal with things totally differently, but then when it all becomes too much they have no male role models to use as an indication of how they can express themselves?

Simply put, yes. If they have no male role models as an indication of how they can express emotions or let alone themselves then they have trouble. This, I think, is why a lot of domestic violence can happen. After all, it's learned in the family situation from an early age. That's something Frued was right about. That isn't of course saying it ONLY happens because they learn it in the family. There are instances where it happens, even if the male in the relationship has been raised in a good home. I think it just means that those who are exposed to it have a higher chance of repeating it.

If that's the same for all cultures? Not too sure tbh. Food for thought for sure.

Once again, we learn by example. We are pattern seeking creatures after all

[Doolhof]

Hi HamSolo and All,

I've been busy with family staying for a few days. It has been interesting to watch the interaction between my parents, my husband and I. My husband and father certainly communicate differently than my Mum and I do and maybe females in general.

My Dad for example was in a lot of pain due to injury, but sucked it all up until it became far to intense for him to deal with. I had been dragging my parents all over the countryside and he didn't complain. If it had been Mum or I we would have said something, offered comfort, advice on how to alleviate the pain and taken action.

My Dad asked me to take him to the hospital in the end. It took a lot before he acknowledged he needed help.

Recently there has been some domestic violence being reported in our area where women have been the perpetrators. It is good these issues are reported and the women are being held accountable for their actions.

Hopefully it will help other men in similar situations to stand up and to speak out. Violence and abuse can work both ways. We need to be aware of that and help everyone who needs it .

Cheers from Dools

[singing_the_blues]

really well created man ,some of the people who were talking to me on here seem to have pulled away ,i know its possible to feel alone when you have a family a job functions to go to pets wifes ect it feels like this place is for people who have so much more than they realis ,i have nothing except the will to live in hope that some thing might change for me ,,it just seems as if this is a bit clicky ,we all need to be stroked a bit on here to keep going ,all my threads have vanished id like to talk to men and women im a male but just want some prompting i guess , abandoned ,its so cold today

[Doolhof]

Hi Singing the blues,

How are you going? Sounds like you are in need of a chat. Just thought I would let you know that White Knight has left the forums for a while, so he won't be answering your message here.

My part of the country has been reasonable today weather wise, about 13 degrees at present and the sun is trying to shine.

Are you into sport at all? There has been so much on lately, I usually catch up on the snippets when the news is on. I'm not all that keen on watching a whole soccer match, I become frustrated when the ball keeps going back and forwards. The Tour De France cycling is interesting, it amazes me when I see such a pack of riders so close together! Some of the towns and villages they ride through are so beautiful as well.

Yes you are right, it can be very easy for some people to feel less isolated than others.

Also, some threads seem to die of for a while or altogether, it is just the nature of the forum, not because anyone is purposely ignoring anyone else.

Hope you are managing to keep warm!

Cheers from Dools