Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[smallwolf]

Hi All,

@Tony - my aloneness was a feeling I had even though there were people around. But those people were not my people - not quite fitting in. This would become more real after I started working from home. Even when I was started a BTh, a lecturer asked me a couple of questions, one of which was whether I was in formation and I replied "no", and then get that look of

I don't understand why you are here

so, even though you can be surrounded by people, you are not really there. Because feeling were not talked about my family circles you would understand that mental health would not be discussed. The low feeling I had each year I thought everyone went through.

After a couple of conversations and COMING HERE, I found out that what I was going through was not that uncommon (?) but dare I say "not normal". It is here that I feel at home.

@Quercus - Now to answer your question. Somewhat situational so you might want to introduce a scenario . But if I am silent or she knows something not right and I say I'm ok, in me there are feelings of weakness or "shoulds" get in the way. In myself, I know my thoughts are irrational, and yet I get these thoughts, so to talk about them make you below average at best and stupid and "get over it" and... and... and... whereas a therapist might talk through it, if you don't get that... People can try to help, perhaps don't know how to?

Tim

[Elizabeth CP]

This thread is very relevant to me. I have a son in a psych hospital currently. I had thought he was doing much better for a while & then he crashed badly. I have several other male family members who are going through extremely stressful situations & are therefor at risk of MH issues. No matter how strong we are we all have a limit!!!. I need to understand what I can do to best support these people without making their situations worse.

Unfortunately we live at a time where gender equality is considered very important. It is We all need equal levels of respect & opportunities but we often equate equality to sameness. Men & women are different & think differently so I need to treat my male ones in ways that reflect their needs rather than what I would prefer in the same situation.

Please men share your stories & help people like me to be better at helping our loved ones

[white knight]

Hi,

Smallwolf- "situational" yes, I agree although for a few early decades I thought my sensitivity to all things including being "fussed" over was common. I now don't think it is as widespread as I thought.

Quercus- yes men here are being very open and glad to answer your questions.

"Being fussed over" - firstly if some don't know, I had a childhood whereby mum stayed at home and dad worked. My older brother was a type one diabetic in the 1950's which caused them to flee Tassy where medical services for such ills were lacking- off to the mainland. I now realise my mother had a high degree of paranoia and was always desperate to be in control. Frankly, us kids 3 in all copped it pretty harshly in terms of manipulation, anxiety (instant yelling) and ups and downs almost daily. We didn't know if she would be in any particular mood. As a man as I grew up it was important to be given space, allowed to make decisions and my own mistakes, without being owned.

As this wasn't evolving and for other reasons, I joined the Air Force at 17yo. There I was 'made' to grow up, make those mistakes and learn the hard way but it didn't work out so back home at 21yo. It only took mother about 2 months to revert back to treating me like a 10yo child. At 24yo my brother took his life. We thought it was a basic suicide, not that complicated but it was IMO (later) the first sign of something wrong eg bipolar in all 3 children.

Fast track to 1985 at 31yo and things got worse. She was intent on spoiling my wedding and did. Tantrums over small details of my wedding didn't add up to such extreme actions. We patched it up. Bare in mind if I disowned her I'd lose my dad, a wonderful man. At 36yo dad passed away.

Being the senior man in the family I took some control until mother was somewhat repaired and she was intent on returning to that tyrant. In 2011 approaching my 2nd wedding she started up again (if it wasn't me it was always someone else). Then she let out to others she was going to be at my wedding and it wasn't going to run smoothly. I banned her from my wedding and another threat came back so no option- a court order stopping her from attending.

As she is in denial of any mental health I did my own research and believe she has BPD. A friend of mine told me to google - queen witch hermit waif. I did and read about mum

So to answer your question- I'm reactive with females being bossy, trying to force control etc. Yet, I actually idolize those that don't, like my wife

TonyWK

[Guest_1584]

Hi to one and all , and once again fantastic thread Tony , so pleased men in this country are at last standing up in all kinds of ways now and it's getting better and better.

Hi Elizabeth , so called equality still has a long way to go and as a man l notice it is when it suits them but still so often isn't when it doesn;t too with women. But also in just life, like if you read Sams thread ,and the poor guy is going through hell with his abusive wife and yet just told by a lawyer he'll have no rights to see he's own kids if they split up, that Lawyer obviously needs a new career butttt. Well ,it's not perfect yet far from , but 50 50 custody thank God is very common in this country now and Europe and in part through he States too . But there is still a long way to go , Sam's even been told she could even get his mothers farm back in India .

But sadly one of the other huge things and l got this everywhere myself too, men going through divorce were just treated like oh, oh well, and that was pretty well it, everywhere l went and Sams getting ti to now. Yet red carpet was rolled out for my ex w, everywhere she went, they were throwing help at her, even by her own family, yet she was the one that had an affair. Thank God there is at least mensline now , dads in distress and a few other things for men getting out there. But unfortunately ,there are still many many other double standards now too.

As far as telling problems, l've never had a problem with that myself as such, it's a different world now than in our fathers day , but yeah l too avoid it because l too hate being fussed over, But also knowing the few people l do have that l might turn too , it could well bite my ass down the track anyway and be thrown in my face later, which it has a few times now and with huge issues too not just nothing stuff. So from that point of view although l have no problem talking , l hold back because of other things.

l suppose there's 50 subjects and intricacies in and out of all these things and 100s of others for men but things l mentioned and even stuff like this thread are all great leaps and a start .

Best to all. RX

[white knight]

Hi RX, good to hear from you

I feel it isn't the womans fault for getting much more help over the years, but a judgement from politicians and officials that determined men were tough and can survive on someones couch for a few weeks. But there has been a cost of this lack of support and no other example is in the suicide rates being 5 times worse than females. Double would be an eye opener but 5 times?

Why is this? Well I think I know why some of them do it. See the more common event upon separation is the kids remaining with the mother (changing slowly). Men losing their full time parenthood has a side effect- his kids are losing their full time dad and being absent in their lives for (commonly) 12 days until the next visitation weekend, dads wonder how they are, miss their cuddles before bedtime and reading a book to them. The mothers in these situations (and some dads) have the children nightly except for two nights a fortnight. They cannot relate to the pain of being the non sole custody parent. It's grief!

I used to ring my kids every second night for a 10 minute chat. My ex told me then "you cant ring them anymore. I complained. She said "look they are both coping fine, they last really well without you for 12 days so just leave them be". Crushing, but legally she was in the right.

My kids were 4 and 7yo when we split. At 12yo my eldest came to live with me. That cancelled out the child support I'd paid for 5 years. My ex was outraged. Child support in those days was even worse than now because any change in wages you had to apply for a child support reduction which took up to 8 months for an interview. Imagine, you lose you second job then the overtime of your first job so your income is halved with now very high child support. The mother in my case had a single parent pension, my child support and if the child support was high she only lost portion of her family payment. Effectively she netted double my income and I worked 42 hours shift work a week 12 hour shifts.

I'm certain many men are suffering out there and women also which is growing. We need to, at our level, be supportive. And Govt officials need to provide the same services to men as to women. But above all this perception that men are stronger than women is not right and our parenthood is as valuable as motherhood.

My estranged mother once said " mothers give birth so a man will never know what that's like, that's why a child is closer to the mother." Mums and dads are equal.

TonyWK

[Guest_1584]

Hi Tony and thanks for that.

Gees you might be right about the pollie angle and they're always trying to look good for women too.

You couldn't call your kids , damn , couldn't you gently argue the point to her or was it upsetting them and making it harder for them. Must've been so painful man. First thing l did bought my daughter her first own phone, just encase mum tried any controlling, so we'd talk anytime at least once a day and still message everyday or call . l've heard many mothers say things like oh they're coping fine , sometimes they seem less parent and in tune with their kids than the dads.REad many a story from 40yr olds still hurting from not seeing their dads growing up.

And yeah ,spent many hours with my brother kept from his own kids by his crazy ex, l told him many a time take her to court. l could well understand many dads/men giving up , the pain is just too much . Thank god we didn't need courts but there were heart wrenching ugly times too where l threatened to if l had to , wasn't all roses. but, compared to many we worked a pretty good in the end. l wanted things somehow as close as we could make them and moved close so l still picked her up at school or dropped over anytime. now she's 18 after all these yrs and comes and goes , gets out of her own car, can't believe it.

That fantastic one came to live with you, mine is now on and off , hoping more in the future but she did always stay a lot , until 151/2, boys took over from dado haha. but l always dreamed she might growing up never got there though. l didn't push it nor want to deprive her of her mum.

Yeah , you bet they are equal , some closer to mum some dad. we have a strange thing she's actually closer to me but since the divorce was more clingy to mum, l get it knowing her and just let it ride.

lt's all such a sad thing . l hated Howard but at least he fought for dads back in their kids life with that ad campaign eh. Even if they upped those efforts, maybe start showing parents to work together, l dunno. l wish l could help now but it all took so much that even writing this is hard now.

All the best. rx

[smallwolf]

An example of isolation...?

If I am low and let my guard down I can be snappy - you can hear it in my voice. This was the case last Wed afternoon. At time of writing, I cannot exactly remember the trigger but I clearly remember what happened afterwards. I was still in the office at 6pm after having a brief chat with someone (X) while they were setting up a rental space. Skip over the fact that X does not think much of CBT - she does stuff in relaxation and mindfulness. So I go back into the office to shut up and along comes in person Y and first asks me

Y: You still here.

Me: YES (in a really grumpy tone).

Y: asks me if I am OK.

Me: I will be.

Y: Too much work for Ch*?

Me: Yeah (still grumpy)! (not looking at her).

Now the truth of the matter of the matter was this has been building for a few days, and there were a few minor things that built up, like an anthill. She offer me an out, and I grabbed it - I did not want to talk about it, I wanted to get out of there, be alone and away from everyone. Ask a different question and who knows. Why didn't I want to talk about it - I felt Y would not really understand and I felt stupid for having first world problems. And I am still keeping this inside, until writing it here.

[white knight]

Hi RX, thanks for your reply. Kids can have mobile phones now. When mine were young few had them and they were like a brick in size and expensive.

Starwolf - you were at the end of a long day, no wonder you were grumpy. I get grumpy when tired or stressed. But I'm unaware of it until my wife tells me. I deny it usually then go to bed and fall to sleep immediately lol.

You mentioned triggers. I have to say triggers are a real challenge to ignore or worse, avoid.

Such result of all these jumbled feelings just add to our isolation.

TonyWK

[Guest_1584]

l sometime long for just 1 or 2, 3 , good mates, best of friends , like you'll see on some movie.

My two oldest brothers , late 50s , both have mates they grew up with. same with my dad. But keeping friends any length of time has always alluded me , something always happens, or they or l move away and lose touch. last 5 or 10yrs l just take it for granted when l make a good friend something will blow it one way or another . Which only leaves brothers , my sisters have proven many times over , just don't even go there.

Well brothers would be great anyway but l dunno l usually regret it loyalty is proven elsewhere or like everyone else , something just happens.

l secretly dream when l move next it'll be the last and l'll make a few good friends at the new place that will last to the end. But going on history, they'll probably move away anyway damn it.

[Quiettall]

Hi Tony

I really like your post. I came back from a short stint in PNG doing overseas aid work. It was both interesting and stimulating and very productive from the local villagers' point of view. However, my wife and her family over the Christmas break could only make smart arse comments like "did you get bite marks from the natives" or "dont you feel you'd be better off staying home and ust killing time here, rather than putting yourself at risk in other countries".

This morning I had a brief encounter with my wife where she insisted on something relatively minor in the bathroom, but I just causally mentioned that I prefer it differently to what she suggests. Her retort was something along the lines of "geez, if you cant agree to do as I say on this, why do you think you doing good with Beyond Blue or overseas aid is anything worth while?"

I felt quite hurt and rather than putting me off doing such work with BB or overseas aid, I would rather do more and not waste so much time at home being compliant to my wife and her family's constant demands.

The work I do I feel very positive about and see on a daily basis the positive outcomes in people's lives, so it leaves me a little bewildered when I get this attitude from home.

Am I being over sensitive or is it a case where they are so selfish they dont see the need for helping others?