Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[HamSolo01]

Hey AndyR

Good points there.

I think I should make a distinction between "patriarchal" and "the patriarchy". One is an adjective and the other lends too much credence to conspiracy - where everything is the subject of oppression. I think for a long time in human history it has been patriarchal. Yesterday I saw women marching in London to celebrate 100 years of equal voting rights. To think that it's only been around for 100 years is somewhat telling I think. So yes, for a long time we have been embedded in patriarchal practices and I think it's good to challenge that. It's good for women and men. But I don't believe in "The Patriarchy" in the same way I don't believe that everything in human history can be explained by one system of analysis. One can say that and still be a feminist.

"The old rules and structures and expectations have created, in my view, a difficulty for men to be other than the ascribed role of masculine."

Very well said. I see this in older generations in particular. I can't speak on behalf of an entire gender but I do know from my own personal experience that this is something which prevents young men from even considering help in the first place - I see friends and family members neglect it. Come to think of it, I've been through 5 psychologists and 3 types of meds. Had I let the expectations that you speak of prevent me from getting help, then I simply wouldn't be here anymore.

BluBelle is right: being openly vulnerable is scary and maybe that's where men need to learn to be strong because it is a strength to expose your doubts and fears and uncertainties.

I've always maintained that it takes a great deal of strength to expose vulnerability.

And I wish we could do this without references to feminism and inappropriate television ads.

Same. Nevertheless, it does come up and I think we ought to talk about it. But I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

On that note I think I'm going to withdraw from participating in this thread in the future. I've noticed that one of my posts hasn't been posted. I believe this is because my points have been misconstrued. That's okay, because I think text based forum discussions don't always allow us to make our points as clear as we could. In person I believe this would probably be different.

I think I've learned a few things here, but I can tell it may get ugly.

Thanks again everyone

[HamSolo01]

Correction re post. It was posted, I've just missed it that's all.

But yes, time to sit back I think.

Thanks again

[blondguy]

Hi Everyone and New Members are more than Welcome 🙂

No worries HamSolo...we all make mistakes. The forums can be slow at times and thankyou for understanding

Just to bring TonyWK's thread back on topic, here is a part of his original post....

TonyWK mentioned " Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?"

Men and Women are both encouraged to reply. Any additional info is available on TonyWK's first post too !

My kind thoughts

Paul

[Doolhof]

Hi Everyone,

HamSolo I don't have a close relationship with my Dad, never had. He is like a stranger to me. I still feel uncomfortable in his presence if it is just the 2 of us. Maybe it is my interpretation of what I see in my Dad.

He was a self employed person. I don't recall him having mates once us kids arrived. If we have family gatherings he tends to sit by himself and doesn't communicate with anyone.

I have heard him say that he has no male friends to talk to or connect with. That makes me very sad for him.

AndyR It can be so easy to have our buttons pushed at times. I am presently doing some study that is making me question some of my beliefs and biases. The thing is, we all have a right to our own beliefs and values. But where does that sit with society in general?

It can be so easy to feel like a victim, to feel like you are not being heard, acknowledged and accepted.

Some situations in society these days are difficult to navigate and understand.

I even have an issue when it comes to entering a door if I happen to approach it at the same time as a male. Do I wait for the man to open the door or do I open it and go through or do I hold it open for the man to walk through in front of me?

At times I feel I have made men feel very uncomfortable (unintentionally) when I have opened the door for them and allowed them to walk in front of me. I have given them a big smile and tried to say something to help them feel it is okay. My husband likes me to open the door for him and stand back as he walks through.

Everyone

I'd like to think that I would be observant enough to be able to pick up when the males I know in my life are feeling vulnerable, that is not always the case though I am sure.

To all the males who are reading this, please know this is a place for you to feel welcome and validated. The forum is here for you just as much as it is for any of us.

It may be that we will never fully understand each other. Here we can be supportive, encouraging of personal views and ideas and be willing to accept differences.

Hi to you too Paul

Cheers all from Dools

[blondguy]

Hi Everyone 🙂 New posters/members are very welcome to post too!

Hi Dools and thankyou for your clarity on TonyWK's thread.

Mrs Dools mentioned "To all the males who are reading this, please know this is a place for you to feel welcome and validated. The forum is here for you just as much as it is for any of us"

As a male do any readers/members feel isolated by females whether at work or at home? Women are also encouraged to post their thoughts on this thread topic too!

Your thoughts are welcome 🙂

I hope everyone is doing the best they can and are having a good weekend

Paul

[BluBelle]

Hey HamSolo, thanks for being open to talking about this further. I'm so, so sorry if you faced ridicule from others when you opened up about your experience with mental health, that really sucks. I truly believe that as more high-profile men start speaking openly about their struggles, it will help others to be more accepting and supportive.

Patriarchy as a concept is just one of the ways a society can be organised, where men disproportionally hold positions of power, privilege and authority. Australia has a long post-colonial history of being a patriarchal society. The concept itself is indisputable. The effects of it, I think, is what a lot of people struggle with and misinterpret. If the patriarchy is men, and the patriarchy is bad - then it might feel like a logical conclusion that men are bad. When you spend your life trying to be a good person that can feel like a real kick in the guts. But I think there are different ways of looking at it, and it doesn't have to be a dichotomy.

As Andy said, perpetuating gender stereotypes has an impact on everyone. It makes it harder for men to be vulnerable, to discuss emotions, to be primary caretakers of children, to seek recourse as victims of violence or bullying, to dress or act or choose a career that is traditionally feminine. If you don't fit in, it can be incredibly isolating.

I'd really love it if the world made space for everyone to talk about issues that effect them, without any 'whataboutism'. Because it's never used to actually help or create space for discussion, only to diminish or invalidate the experience of the 'other' group. It's not helpful to say "women hit men too" in response to discussions of family violence and murder. It's not helpful to say "women die by suicide too" in response to discussions of high male suicide rates. Of course they do, and we should absolutely be making time and space to talk about that. But it's like this constant struggle to dominate a conversation, and voices get squashed as a consequence.

[Doolhof]

Hi Paul and Everyone,

What does everyone think it will take for some men to feel more comfortable with being open to their emotions and expressing themselves?

I've not worked in the child care industry for a while, when I did, we were discouraged from putting children in gender boxes, or calling the children by the title of their sex, eg, Miss J you have been a clever girl or Master T what a clever boy you are.

Do you think being gender neutral from an early age helps or hinders?

I've not been a parent, so I don't know if parents instil different values in their children depending on their sex in this day and age.

How can we reach out to a male who feels like no one is listening or no one cares? Guys, what would work for you in these circumstances?

I might try and have a deeper discussion with my Dad while he is with us. We have never had a deep and meaningful conversation about anything! This will be a first!

Cheers all from Dools

[Elizabeth CP]

Dools comment re being gender neutral stuck out to me. I disagree. I was brought up being very clear that I was a girl & that was a good thing. My brother being a boy was considered different but equally important. I had 2 boys before my daughter was born & loved to see her in pretty dresses. I tried to make it clear that I loved having children from both genders & their differences were things to enjoy rather than one being better than the other. While certain activities they chose were more typical for their gender they weren't restricted. I remember my sons laughing at my younger daughter as she planned to build a elaborate carved bedhead to celebrate finishing year 12. When she started her brother (a joiner) spent time teaching her to use a jigsaw. The initial laughter turned to admiration as the project was completed. My son who was a typical male enjoying adventurous activities also taught himself cake decorating & decorated a beautiful cake with hand made flowers for his sister.

For me I believe children benefit from being clear about their gender & seeing it as a positive thing. On the other hand children should be encouraged to pursue their particular interests & talents regardless or hether they are typical for their gender.

[sparhawk29]

hi everyone. thankyou for bringing this post to my attention from a previous one i had commented on. it's a long read, as i'm a latecomer to it, being 8 pages now lol, but i haven't read them all and will catch up over time. i want to apologise in advance if i accidentally do a stereotypical thing anywhere in posts, i'm a little old school, and i find that certain things do kinda trigger me as well, so i have to step back and remember, it's a diverse world, everyone's opinions do matter, whether i agree or not. the biggest thing i like with what i read here, is everyone speaks, there's no negativity, even if something's slightly misread, or mistyped, and all of us count. there's no differences, just on discussions really. i'm very proud to be joining this as i believe we all have a role to play in changing perspectives.

there has been alot here i agree with, and the bit that has touched me most is the initial treatment of men by all parts of society. i'm from a generation where men aren't allowed to feel, to have emotion, and if you do you're perceived as weak... and i know that isn't the case. with that in mind i approached raising my kids in a slightly modified way to what i received. i taught the boys they had to be tough, but it was fine to be feeling, it was ok if something's bothering you that you should have emotion. and my daughter i did the same. she's probably tougher than the boys lol.

but they don't judge. they stand together, and they're doing well out there. myself though, i've had issues with persecution for as long as i can remember, and while i may not be there, i've been recognised as at risk of depression. it's probably my upbringing and determination that's kept me above water so to speak.

having a group that i can talk to is actually a great thing, and the big reason is, there's no support for what i'm dealing with. the worst thing is i don't need a hug, i just need an ear. having no one i can talk to is the worst part of it all and when i need to vent, there's no one there. it does seem the main issue, is while women can talk generally, men can't. and in my personal experience, women treat men that feel, as weak as well. i am kinda generalising here, and i know not all are like that, but i haven't had alot of positive experiences where emotions are involved.

the sad thing is, most of my frustrations is from the changing of thinking within society. they want equality, but they end up removing the equality between differnent groups.

[sparhawk29]

allow me to clarify that last part too.

women's movements have wanted equal rights with men, pay wise, as well as other things, and by all means i agree. but not to the point that men are then no longer allowed to exercise that self same right.

the recent yes campaign wanted same sex marriage and was exercising their right to free speech, yet if you exercised yours and disagreed with the movement, you were attacked as a homophobic bigot and the like.

women have access to victims support groups with regards to domestic violence, and don't even have to have experienced any of it. men have a support group so far, but even if you're a victim, you're treated as a guilty party to domestic violence to attend it. even in our government's eyes, men can't be victims of crime.....

my arguement in all that, isn't trying to stereotype anyone, it's the fact while we all want equality, it never comes out as equal. so for me to find any form of support in a frustrating issue of being a victim, but treated as a criminal, i have no one. even in the eyes of the law, i cannot be weak, therefore while i'm the one copping the abuse, i'm also the one that gets punished for it. and i can't talk to anyone.

i'm at risk of depression, because i've got all this pent up issues bottled up, and it's dragging me down, but i'm not depressed effectively, because i can't allow myself to be beaten. and knowing now that there are others that suffer different reasons for being dragged down, gives me a bit of hope that one day our voices may change the way things are seen. if we want things truly equal, society needs to change their way of thinking as a whole, and be willing to understand it's more than just being weak. even men have feelings as well.