Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[Quercus]

Hi everyone,

I had to throw my 5c in when Mitch (Hamsolo) mentioned the incel movement.

The attitude of that movement scares me witless.

Driving to the block hubby was listening to some news program and they had interviews with some of the men within that movement. The hostility and sense of entitlement set me off. Hubby realised I was freaking out quietly and turned it off. But it stuck in my head.

I worry for my kids. Is hostility and judgement and entitlement the way our community is going? If so no wonder I keep wanting to become a hermit.

I think everyone, men and women are capable of learning to be involved and less isolated. The most awkward human being learns slowly to interact with others if like Hamsolo mentioned they are treated as a person worth time because of who they are inside.

Look at Randomx for example. You said yourself your ex used to organise all the outings but for you your norm is isolation. However you alone chose to join the forums and to meet and talk to others. We are all capable just have to be willing.

Mrs D asked would we be the same of we were another gender. No I wouldn't be.

I used to think that my male cousins were lucky. My role was at home helping indoors or in the garden. Their roles were outdoors or in the shed or out on the farm.

To me they seemed to get the important exciting jobs. To be confident and successful and friendly. But I realised lately my cousins who have struggled (dyslexia, anorexia, depression, anxiety, ADHD) don't talk about it.

Would I be alive today of I was like that? I don't think I would.

I got help because my husband dragged out of me what was wrong. And because I see him as the protector in our home I admitted my feelings.

I wonder if I grew up thinking I was the protector/husband would I allow my wife to come home to me sobbing on the kitchen floor? Probably not because I would be at work. Would I admit I couldn't get suicidal thoughts out of my head and that I was frightened? No because I would be bigger than my wife and I wouldn't want her to be frightened of me.

How sterotypical this all sounds!

But it's true to me. I am smaller than my husband. So at my worst he picked me up off the floor. Gently but firmly held me still when I was panicking and wanted to run rather than speak truth.

When I lose the plot and am hysterical he's not frightened of me.

So I got the help I needed. As a man I think I would have buries it deeper. And probably died. That's sad.

[HamSolo01]

Hey Nat (Quercus)

I'm having a pretty crap day so I'm sitting on my pc watching a psychologist talk about personality and taking notes. This also means I'm on forums now too.

Is hostility and judgement and entitlement the way our community is going?

If we don't pull our collective heads in and call one another to account then yes I think so. As dark and as bad as that might sound, I believe it is true. These truly are testing times we live in.

Nevertheless, human history is plagued with moments like these and I believe we can actually do things properly. You know in my current job at the uni where I call ex students I spoke to one gentleman who completed his course in the 1960s and we were talking for ages. He studied similar things to me and we got talking about politics, history etc and how messed up the world is becoming.

He proceeded to talk about masculinity and then told me about his kids, then telling me one of his sons suicides last year. He broke when he told me this. I couldn't tell him that I knew what that was like being someone in a similar capacity because it wouldn't be professional and plus I wasn't comfortable with talking about it anyway if my boss was listening in. But this son of his was doing medicine. An honorable profession.

You say that you would've kept your emotions under wraps Nat, if you were in a similar position to your cousins. I think this is a telling sign of the current problem we face. We only ever seem happy to tell other people our darkest, desperate horrifying truths when it suits us. When we think that it will make us seem better. Vulnerability is considered weakness. If a man were to talk openly about suicide he risks ridicule from his peers, but also from the feminists. It pains me to say that, because I think equality is important. My mum and sister are phenomenal people and I want them to be treated equally. But, in this day and age a man risks being ridiculed "coz patriarchy".

There was a quote from Voltaire that I read recently. I want to share it. See what you all think.

"I have wanted to kill myself a hundred times, but somehow I am still in love with life. This ridiculous weakness is perhaps one of our more stupid melancholy propensities, for is there anything more stupid than to be eager to go on carrying a burden which one would gladly throw away, to loathe one’s very being and yet to hold it fast, to fondle the snake that devours us until it has eaten our hearts away?"

Interesting stuff I think

[Guest_1584]

Hi Guercus , think l got that right haha , noticed l get a few names wrong .

l don't think it's stereotypical at all , no more than women in many ways. My w sometimes didn't tell me to protect me and some as big as that .

As far as isolation , nah , l'm not isolated personally , well , its; mostly mu cjoice put it that way. l just can't be bothered with too much crap , l'm out and about all over the place to what suits me though. Been at the pub all arvo today with a few 100people , felt like it. But in all honesty ex organizing all that stuff drove me and my daughter crazy. every second wkend was ruined , and most christmas's , too much for me. Buttt , that keeps her in touch with everyone,

Once or twice a year l could live with, ahhh, ,just, if someone else organized it haha. One of the joys of being divorced , l only see people when l wanna see them now

That's great with your hubby he sounds like a good man. These days l can sorta relate bc my gf had a lot if issues and over time as l understood some better it became so satisfying helping her or being there or coming up with ways too.

[BluBelle]

I'm interested in exploring this thought with you HamSolo:

"If a man were to talk openly about suicide he risks ridicule from his peers, but also from the feminists."

I hesitate to get too deep into the subject outside of the appropriate boards, but there are some men who speak pretty openly about suicide and mental health - former footballer Wayne Schwass comes to mind - and I've not seen any ridicule aimed at him. Likewise with the recent discussions around Anthony Bourdain. Of course on social media we tend to see things in our feed that align with our values, so you may have seen chats that I haven't. But I don't know many women, feminist or not, who would ridicule someone for speaking up about experiencing dark thoughts. Is ridicule actually happening, or is it the fear of ridicule? Being openly vulnerable is really scary, I think moreso for men as they've inherited the 'stiff upper lip' culture and being stoic and suffering in silence has been somewhat romanticised. I think some really positive change could come from wriggling free of that culture (which some people do include as an example of 'toxic masculinity' - which I also think is a confusing buzzword that doesn't actually help men very much).

[HamSolo01]

Hey BluBelle

I think it's different for men who are famous. Those people you mentioned are definitely doing great work in the area of mental health awareness. Unfortunately however, the reality is different for those who are not famous.

No one tends to ridicule the famous people when they come out like that. The same can't be said for people who aren't famous.

When I say feminists, I'm specifically talking about the ones who subscribe to the notion of a "patriarchy" that directly oppresses women. In every way possible. It's a narrative that a lot of the extremists hold to because it's a neat explanation for everything. Telling them that males suicide more than females is often brushed aside. The issue for them isn't suicide, it's the fact that males are getting spoken about. I don't think that's healthy.

I think we ought to open up and speak about it definitely. However, when we have a culture that is so insistent on female rights (which is important don't get me wrong) it makes it even harder to talk openly about these things.

I don't use social media much at all. I think it's ruining our lives.

Next time you see a public figure or public intellectual talk about these things watch how quickly the discussion changes into one where we talk solely about women's issues or how issues effect both men and women. It seems almost criminal to talk about men's issues. This is what I mean by "ridicule from the feminists".

I think I've made my point clear. I'm happy to answer more questions 🙂

[Doolhof]

Hi Everyone,

No one deserves to feel isolated, ignored, taken for granted, invalidated and not acknowledged.

It is extremely tragic when anyone ends up deciding that self harm or suicide are the only options left to them.

Maybe society needs to be more aware that we are all people.

For individuals to not feel like they need to be superior to others. Acceptance! Where has acceptance gone? Some people seem to get more of that than others.

We all have equal rights. No one should feel like they are being trodden on. We are human though. It is always going to happen.

Individuals are always going to have their own thoughts, beliefs, feelings and ideas around any issue.

Respect. I feel some of us need to learn a little more respect for our fellow humans.

Looking at my Dad, I see a man who is very isolated from society. He has always seemed to be a loner. I wonder some days if he has much happiness in his life. In his community there are no men's sheds. No groups or organisations to join. He is definitely not one to go to the pub for a chat and a drink. I wonder what the answer is for men in such situations?

Cheers all from Dools

[Doolhof]

I have just Googles Anthony Bourdain. I had no idea he recently died. I really enjoyed watching his cooking and travelling shows!

My heart goes out to all his family and friends.

My heart goes out to anyone reading this who has lost a loved one to suicide and feels some kind of hurt, pain, sad memories or feel triggered in any way.

Sending care and support out to you all.

Cheers from Dools

[HamSolo01]

Hey Doolhof

Feel free to ignore this because it's a bit of a personal question.

When you say that about your dad, "I see a man who is very isolated from society. He has always seemed to be a loner." Do you think he feels this way? Or does it just seem this way? Do you think he is perhaps more introverted and asocial? Or does he have other ways he interacts with people?

I agree about acceptance too. Too often acceptance is mistaken for agreement. People can disagree, but that shouldn't form the basis of hostility - I fear this is something we're losing.

It's honestly what's probably driving people away from one another - the fear of conflict and judgement simply rising out of disagreement.

I vocalise my opinions often. I find that I disagree a lot with my friends and family on some issues, but we are made all the more stronger for it. I recently recall a conversation I had with two muslim students at my university one day. They were running a stall answering people's questions. I really respect that. It takes guts. I'm not religious (but I was) so the discussion we had was really good. I had a lot of respect for them. I could tell the conversation was dying out though because we disagreed on a lot of things, but that's okay.

I think the focus on acceptance is important, so long as we remember it's actually okay to disagree.

[AndyR]

Hi Dools

Thank you for your post. I've stayed away from this thread lately because some of the posts have made me uncomfortable with the male-female dichotomy and, to some degree, blame and responsibility avoiding.

Most importantly I want to thank you for this: Maybe society needs to be more aware that we are all people.
For individuals to not feel like they need to be superior to others. Acceptance! Where has acceptance gone? Some people seem to get more of that than others. We all have equal rights. No one should feel like they are being trodden on. We are human though. It is always going to happen.

I think this is what I was getting at in my earlier posts. We are all human. The sad thing is that some have the power, position and privilege that sets up rules for socially acceptable behaviour. While I can sort of see where HansSolo is coming from the reality is that for millennia we have lived in a patriarchal society and that is now being challenged (quite rightly). The old rules and structures and expectations have created, in my view, a difficulty for men to be other than the ascribed role of masculine. That it is toxic for men's health and well being seems to be supported by the higher rates of suicide and so forth as I mentioned in an earlier post.

For the sake of the mental well being of men (nearly 50& of the population) we need desperately to have both men and women say we can talk about this, we need to talk about this and we need to act on it.

BluBelle is right: being openly vulnerable is scary and maybe that's where men need to learn to be strong because it is a strength to expose your doubts and fears and uncertainties.

And I wish we could do this without references to feminism and inappropriate television ads.

BluBelle

[blondguy]

Hey everyone and thankyou for being a part of TonyWK's thread 🙂

Hi Dools...always a treat to have your input and thankyou! You mentioned " Do some men feel isolated because women have started to stand up for themselves?" You have written a great post as you always have. TonyWK has written a great post here as men do feel isolated as per his introductory post.

I know many men that feel isolated by the impact of feminism in their lives

As TonyWK mentioned many times.....this isnt a women bashing thread in any way. Its about men feeling isolated in their lives.

Just an example if I can....In Canada (which is part of the Commonwealth) a woman that is a manager of a group of people working on Canadian Pacific Rail is known as a 'foreman'...Does Canada have a problem or are we 'overthinking'?

Women that stand up for themselves are a gift that keep 'the balance' and kudos to them!

Thankyou Dools and everyone 🙂

My kind thoughts

Paul