Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[AndyR]

Hi Paul and Birdy and Quercus and everyone

Thank you to all who responded to my posts, so much positive comment and encouragement.

I've had a few days to reflect on my own responses and those of others. I know the question about men setting the rules and women following is an important one, and deserves consideration. But, for me, the bigger question is about men isolating themselves. perhaps the nature of friendships men form and whether being a mate is the same as being a friend.

I read some research recently that suggested men get to middle age and find they have few real friends, (of either gender), few real opportunities to open up, and a 'bewilderment' about how to do so given the way they've learned to be men. I'm wondering if that fits with the experience of men in these forum. It got me thinking on companionship and what it means for men (if companionship is the opposite to isolation). So I'm wondering what men think about their friendships with men, and how or what could change to have men be less isolated.

And Paul I had a lovely weekend - I went to a social club and danced with a handsome man to the Tennessee waltz! Making myself go, and being open to new people (strangers) gave me a moment of perfect charm. I also patted myself on the back for going.

[Guest_1584]

Hi one and all and andy.

1stly l'd just say that l am so pleased about finally some concern for men and dads in our country lately and now and the different things opening up for men and help and convos and websites and groups , whatever. Keep it up guys and just remember women have gone on like this for decades to change things to where they are for them and if guys keep this up hopefully there'll be the same support and true friendship and agencies and help for guys too one day.

On the other part. only speaking for myself but l'm nothing like most guys my age and l also just recently divorced too as sadly many others but all l can really talk about is my own sitch.

Firstly , my ex w did all our family stuff,invites ,get togethers, so l didn't realize or care how much work's involved. But divorced , my God, l still just can not be bothered with it. Yaknow , she was working , always busy but she loved all that stuff but me l couldn't care less so l just left it up to her. So now, l'm hopeless at it and don't care anyway so l hardly see family.

She was the same with friends, catching up, arranging things. again l'm male there''s not much fuss l just don;t care someone might call yeah ok cool see ya then that's it.

And these days well , that was things l always hated being married ex forcing family crap on me every second wkend so l'm glad to be free of it now. But without her doing that l do lose touch too , l don;t care but well , maybe l should, hell l dunno.

Or take my daughter , again ex is shoving family down her throat since she was in nappies but l just don't care l'd much rather one on one time with my daughter and she hardly see's family on my side since. but again , l just don;t care, l have much more important things l think about and do.

So , l realized she took care of all that but now left to me, l just don;t care. And so that probably means l end up alone a lot.

But then later with my gf a long time she was more like me and only saw her family once a year and didn't care about other people much aside. she likes her space, like me.

Talking stuff again , l don't really care. l love love love intimate hours even days on end with my ex w or my gf , we'd talk and talk anything everything but other people, l just don't care. l don;t have some clam up problem l do talk to some friends but l just have no interest in more, zero. That's just me. An d maybe sadly with most family and friends too, l'd be faking it but so thus alone mostly though.

[blondguy]

Hi everyone and thankyou for being a part of TonyWK's thread topic re "Men Isolated'

Hey Andy....It is really good to have your input on this or any other thread topic. Its just my humble opinion yet I have found that most of my friends are now married and settled as they are also middle aged like I am so I think you have brought up an excellent point. Your research is spot on. You have a such a proactive attitude and giving life a go and thus having a good weekend including having the chance to the Tennessee waltz with a nice guy to boot!

Andy mentioned "Making myself go, and being open to new people (strangers) gave me a moment of perfect charm. I also patted myself on the back for going" You are inspirational Andy and thankyou! You Rock

I am like RX (above) and its a pain being isolated as a male after our relationships have gone south...especially when we both have a daughter (or a young one involved)...it hurts

RX....thanks for being a part of this thread...I hear you loud and clear....mostly alone here too...ugh!

My kind thoughts always

Paul

[HamSolo01]

Good afternoon all.

I've had a good look at what everyone has spoken about and I think it's really interesting. I have a few things to add.

I am only just starting to notice that "what society thinks" is usually nonsense. Not in the sense that it's wrong (probably is though). But in the sense that trying to articulate what millions of people think "as a whole" is impossible.

I am concerned that an obsession over what others think is something that many of us here seem to struggle with enough as it is.

I also think that you are whatever you think you are. (I think therefore I am). If a man starts to think 'I am xyz and therefore a man' I think this can be problematic. The alternative is better I reckon, you think to yourself "I am a man, and therefore xyz".

The reason for that distinction is because I think it's something of a redundant exercise when you start to define yourself according to other criterion which isn't yourself. I think I'm explaining this badly lol. But I think what I mean is that you shouldn't ever consider yourself in accordance with anything other than that which you want to. Put simply, autonomy.

I think whether or not you are gay, straight, bi etc simply doesn't matter in terms of whether you are a man or not. You can be any of them and you are still a man. There's no reason why you can't be.

In terms of isolation? I'm not sure. I don't feel isolated because of being a man. I feel isolated because I feel isolated because of depression and anxiety. Masculinity and male hood hasnt got anything to do with it.

I guess at same time I need to remember that some men do feel isolated. I get that. But I'm wondering if it has anything to do with being a man? I think the cultural obsession with feminism (which is actually bad for feminism) in popular culture doesn't help. There's a certain level of piss take and humour that gets to a point where it's condescending towards men - especially on TV and on TV commercials. In terms of popculture and movies and film? I'm not sure. I'm not into whether or not the character is male or female, more what they contribute to the story or narrative. Hollywood is a giant fat hypocrite.

Anyway. I'll see what comes of this.

[Guest_1584]

Gday paul and all , and thanks for that mate.

Yeah ham l hear ya , but don't worry l think you did a better job of explaining than l did.

l despise a lot of the Hollywood garbage too but the strangest thing is , people see m to take as is, l can never believe that , especially in the states. Thank God here we're still a bit more realistic so far.

But yeah as far as isolation , what l was getting at is that l just can't be bothered nor have the interest in all the work involved in keeping in touch and organizing , where as ex w thrived on it though, loved doing it all. And it's usually or often the case to with women, wives. And l don't really care about keeping in touch either, l just don't , where as usually they do.

As far as men , guys , talking or not l always think when l hear that well speak for yourself l reckon that's more from my fathers generation, way old school and time not these days, l've got no problem at all talking but where it is different for me say as compared to women, and in being male is that again l just don;t care about flogging a dead horse or the ins and outs of a ducks proverbial yaknow , where as most women will rave everything to pieces and love it , need it. Like if l say oh yeah and move on , it's not because l have trouble talking about it's because l have no interest in talking about it or just a skim is all l feel like . like l grew up with 6 sisters and the difference to this day with them as compared to my brothers is still mind boggling , they'll talk anything to death . like l talk a lot but only when l feel like it and l'm interested .

And personally l think to these days , that that is often mistaken for men clamping up , but in a lot of cases like me for instance , just not interested in more on whatever the topic. Like all my brothers and l could say the same thing in one sentence that my sisters would spend an hour on.

l often notice a helluva lot of misconceptions about men and way too much generalizing rather than actually knowing or understanding that individual, really gets on my nerves.

No clue if one word of this will make any sense at all.

rx

[blondguy]

Hey Hamsolo

Really good to see you around again and thankyou for posting with us!

You mentioned a good point re feminism in regard to men feeling isolated

Hamsolo mentioned "I think the cultural obsession with feminism (which is actually bad for feminism) in popular culture doesn't help" Thankyou Hamsolo for this valid point

The commercials that depict men as morons have been covered earlier on in TonyWK's post and are well worth a read

My kind thoughts

Paul

[Doolhof]

Hi Everyone,

I'm going to throw a cat in amongst the pigeons, I'm wondering if some people would be any different if they had been born the opposite sex or even intersex.

Does our biological sex make us the people we are or is it more our personality, thoughts of society, norms, expectations of self and others around us, education, media, our own desires?

Is life really more isolating for men than women?

Are men starting to feel out of control because women have come out of the kitchen to speak?

When I grew up, the expectation was that women were to be barefoot and pregnant chained to the kitchen sink with a mattress strapped to their back.

Do some men feel isolated because women have started to stand up for themselves?

Has it been okay for women to have been portrayed in less than desirable fashion for centuries?

Maybe we all need to look at each other as equals. To show resect and understanding.

Right. I will get off my soap box now!

Cheers all from Dools

[Guest_1584]

Hi dools.

l know what your getting at but l'd say a def' no no no and more no's to all of the above.That's all been goin on 50 years l mean really , who cares , as far as any isolation thing l couldn't see how whatever women are up to would effect anything .

But yeah of course there's a def' and very obvious difference between men and women in many many ways of course and yeah for me and l know many guys l know or have known, we just can't be bothered with all the effort and crap involved , well l know l can't and l see a lot of it l know how us guys tick yaknow. Not to say we're all like that some l know are worse than women with all that stuff, like my brother for instance. He's unbelievable, calls everyone for birthdays, dozens of people, his always inviting or keeping in touch or having people over he's on the damn phone 7days a week or goes and see's everyone even the ones interstate , he just seems to enjoy it. But l know 9 out of 10 guys l know of or meet, talking 100s over the years, would never go to that kinda trouble.

So in the end that one type of thing along would lead to isolation. Not to say there aren't other reasons but l know that stuff is a biggie . As l was saying my nature alone l can't be bothered, simple, l see people l see and don't care about the rest it's too much work, family and what, l don't even like them dropping in most of them are a pain in the ass haha.

l'd say though as far as whatever women do , nothing to do with anything really or maybe it even helps the situation because their out and about more , friendly , getting into all sorts of things and often what use to be guy stuff so if ya wanna meet them their everywhere.

[HamSolo01]

hey randomx

"l often notice a helluva lot of misconceptions about men and way too much generalizing rather than actually knowing or understanding that individual, really gets on my nerves."

Agreed. I definitely think this is the case. It explains two things quite well. The first thing it explains is the cultural obsession with collectivising groups of people (throwback to the talk about commercials on TV that depict men in a certain light) and also the political machinations of extremists who want to blame men for everything wrong in the world - "cheap feminism" if you will. In the pursuit of equality, you can't put down the other party. Simple. Of course there are those on the extreme left who want to mince up word salad and start analyzing the rhetoric and "positionality" of people in power (that's where the narrative of the oppressive straight white male begins). More on that later perhaps.

One thing I think we should talk about too is the "rise of the incel movement". If you are unfamiliar with this it is worth a quick google search. They are basically young males who are involuntarily celibate. They believe they are owed sex. I can honestly see why they'd think this because sex is everywhere. We are led to believe it is readily available and there must be something wrong with you if you are a virgin. I guess it's really one side of the proverbial coin where the other side is the hyper-sexualised male who pulls lots of girls. Both are predicated on the notion that sex is an item. As a 24 year old virgin male I'm somewhat ashamed of my lack of action in the bedroom, but in the same light I guess I really don't care. If people wish to make a judgement on me because of that then I'm not bothered - all it really shows is how shallow minded the other person is. I don't believe ANYONE is owed sex. That said, human affection and intimacy (be it hetero, gay etc) is a necessity. I think by removing the emotional connection that sex brings with it, one can end up doing damage to themselves. When we have shows on TV like the Bachelor, Love Island, First Dates, Farmer wants a Wife etc we have a lot of growing up to do - but sex sells. I'm pretty libertarian about this, I'm not a cultural teetotaler but I do think we need to talk about these things more.

Food for thought

[HamSolo01]

Hey Doolhof

I like your questions so I'm going to reply to each of them here for consistency. I really like where this is going.

"I'm wondering if some people would be any different if they had been born the opposite sex or even intersex."

Yes. For sure. Each one of us is different, so had we been born differently then we would HAVE to be someone else. It follows logically.

Does our biological sex make us the people we are or is it more our personality, thoughts of society, norms, expectations of self and others around us, education, media, our own desires?

I would say it's both. I'm not interested in determining which factor contributes to that the most though. I think it's both biology and "the self" (ie consciousness). Education, media, societal norms impact the way we view ourselves in relation to other people and this has a profound impact on our psyche.

Is life really more isolating for men than women? Are men starting to feel out of control because women have come out of the kitchen to speak?

What do you mean in terms of "control"? I think life CAN be isolating for both men and women. It depends on the individual circumstances of the person in question. Women "coming out of the kitchen to speak" has been met with resistance from the more conservative traditions (religions in particular). I think my generation is probably a bit different because equality is assumed. We don't actually have to discuss this at any great length because it's already practiced.

Has it been okay for women to have been portrayed in less than desirable fashion for centuries?

No it hasn't. My fear is that men will start being portrayed in less than desirable fashion. Anyone who thinks that equality is a 'zero sum game' is missing the point. The condescending attitudes of the radical feminists towards something like male suicide disgusts me and ought to disgust any decent human being. I honestly think that women are getting a good amount of respect in this day and age. We talk more about women's sport, women running businesses, women pursuing careers - the type of thing that was mythological say some 40 years ago.

Maybe we all need to look at each other as equals. To show respect and understanding.

Hear hear!