Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[HamSolo01]

Hey White Knight. Great idea for a thread. I am a 24 year old male.

- Have a look at a gentleman by the name of Jordan B Peterson. Very influential psychologist at the moment. Has a lot to say on this. Ignore the journalistic nonsense that's out there about him because it's not accurate.

- In relation to mental health, male suicide rates are highest. This is because they choose more lethal means to self harm as opposed to women who tend to self harm with less lethal means  I believe this is a problem that doesn't get enough attention. It's upsetting to me.

- I hate the phrase 'toxic masculinity'. Not because I disagree with it. I know exactly what it's describing, but far too often its confused with healthy masculinity. I believe we have the radical feminists to thank for that one. The ones who've taken feminism and tarnished it with their deconstruction of meaning and post modern tendencies. More on that later if it comes up. The notion of "The Patriarchy" is silly. That's a conspiracy theory. I think workplaces, cultures and societies can exhibit patriarchal characteristics. Certainly. But that doesn't lend credence to the notion of a grand conspiracy that actively seeks to suppress women in all ways. That's just unhealthy thinking.

- I think what males struggle with the most is talking openly about feelings and making it a positive experience. I see this happen in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. I believe it is up to men to decide how they wish to express emotion and not women. The corollary of that is true for women choosing how to express their emotions. There are unhealthy options and healthy options.

- I have female friends who I can talk to about my mental health. However it's only ever a discussion over what's being felt. There are never solutions that come out of it. I believe men are better at finding solutions to these sorts of things when men are the ones facing them.

- Better male role models needed. Simple.

In regards to your example? I'd try to help the man figure out what's wrong. I'd get him to articulate the problems that he believes he is having and get him to speak about what solutions can be made. I do t really care for the awkwardness of it because I know what that's like. I kind of grew up a bit and thought I don't care what others think anymore. Most other guys are insecure and I don't think it's their fault tbh.

[AndyR]

Hi Birdy and Quercus. Thanks for the encouragement and I mean to respond and will to the original questions and subsequent thoughts. But to be honest I need to consider a whole lot of what I've read over the past couple of hours, and work out what is niggling at me.

But for now I want to respond to Quercus and two comments: "that's a curious thought" and "does it matter."

While I was cooking my dinner (after mopping and vacuuming...!) I wondered about that. It shouldn't matter of course. Absolutely right. Does it matter. My lived experience of being a gay man in this world is it does matter, despite the advances. Many times in my life my contributions to discussions such as this on men and emotions and mental illness have been met with a "but you don't really understand because you're gay." Somehow anything I say is received through that filter. Not from a man's perspective but from a gay man's perspective. That little word alters so much. At its worst it carried not only implication but explicit "what would you know, you're not really a man" type comments. We think its not happening now but it still is. From both women and men, but predominantly from straight men who can and do devalue what I contribute on the basis of not being a 'real man". So I've become very wary of stepping into such discussions for the bruising they can inflict. Which means, for me, it wasn't really a curious thought - more an instinctive response of wariness.

[Birdy77]

Dear Andy,

It's been niggling at me all afternoon too, and Quercus, when you said what a curious thought! I wanted to reply straight away, but wanted to give Andy (and any other gay man) a chance to respond.

Because it's really not a curious thought at all!! it's just reality, in my mind.

I won't say too much, because I am not a gay man ...

But this entire thread has been such a heteronormative discourse which has really grated on me for a lot reasons. It started on page one & has continued.

I am not a gay man, but I can understand why a gay man would hesitate to contribute. I felt so strongly that I had to speak up a little on page 6 ...

I hope you say whatever you have on your mind Andy, it is a safe space, even though I feel very nervous posting this!

🌻birdy

[AndyR]

Hi Birdy and thank you for the encouragement to share my perspective. I'm nervous about this but, well, we shall see...

A couple of things strike me as important if we are to address the challenges of men and mental and emotional well-being. Firstly in the opening sentences: I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far. No, it hasn't. I suspect it still has a way to go, and as a society we are better off because of it. Equality is not about gender or sexuality or identity. It's about recognising that all of us have an equal volume of space to develop the rules of engagement in the way we interact with each other. As importantly, that we have a responsibility to recognise and value input from everyone in a way that isn't defined by pigeonholing roles - that no contribution is given extra weight based on, for example, gender. 'We all get to breathe into the same amount of airspace" as one writer said. That this is a positive thing is, to me, beyond question for the old rules clearly haven't worked. Men's higher suicide rates, higher rates of undiagnosed illness, higher propensity to violence, higher rates of addiction all tell a story of how they haven't worked. And those things are still here, we're still grappling with them and my view (here goes) is we won't until we stop discussing men's challenges against the yardstick of gender equality and instead talk about them in human equality terms. If the old rules and ways of being don't work then we have to try something new.

Which brings me to something which leapt off the page at me in an earlier contribution: Ladies, rest the issues, chill, follow the rules in that thread and wait a little time. I have a question. Why should it be men who set the rules and women who follow them? If we are talking about two people in a relationship then surely the rules of engagement should be developed from equal contributions where the outcome is both follow the agreed upon framework. Inevitably that involves compromise and a willingness to try new ways of being that may not be comfortable. Anything else results in an imbalanced relationship, where one or other or indeed both will close up shop. And I'm sure as anything that that is not healthy. So my suggestion is Ladies: question the rules, and Guys: question the rules - find what works together.

here goes... pushes POST button

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Tony WK and all,

AndyR, I don’t believe we have crossed paths before. It’s great to “meet” you 🙂

I loved reading your posts and appreciated your observations, how you shared your personal experience(s) and insight. I realise posting couldn’t have been easy for you but I’m really glad you did...it was brave and I feel that I personally learnt something from you.

I hope you continue sharing your thoughts with us...I like how you’re encouraging us to really reflect, ask questions and challenge norms.

It’s great to have you on board, and once again, thank you for bravely sharing your views.

Kind and caring thoughts,

Pepper

[blondguy]

Hi AndyR!

You input is as highly valued as anyone's on the forums ....including mine. If I may compliment you on what you mentioned in your post above

AndyR mentioned "Equality is not about gender or sexuality or identity. It's about recognising that all of us have an equal volume of space to develop the rules of engagement in the way we interact with each other. As
importantly, that we have a responsibility to recognize and value input from everyone in a way that isn't defined by pigeonholing roles"

AndyR asked an important question "Why should it be men who set the rules and women who follow them?" If anyone has any thoughts on Andy's question it would great to hear your thoughts!

Thankyou for being a part of the Beyond Blue forums Andy! I really hope you can stick around

My kind thoughts

Paul

[blondguy]

Hey Birdy, Quercus, Pepper and Hamsolo!

Thankyou so much for taking the time to post and welcoming AndyR to TonyWK's thread 🙂

My kind thoughts always

Paul

[Birdy77]

Dear Andy,

I also really enjoyed reading your posts.

I particularly liked what you said about moving beyond gender equality to human equality.

Quercus was absolutely 100% right, of course, that it shouldn't matter one bit, about a man's identity or sexuality, if a man is gay, bi, straight, trans, or any other kind of man, your thoughts and opinions and feelings on a thread about men's isolation are extremely valid and all matter, a great deal.

I feel that the fact that in your experience your views are always seen through the filter of being from a "gay man", rather than just a man, I think is testament to how far we have yet to go with what you called human equality, and get to that point Quercus mentioned, where it actually "doesn't matter". I dream of that day. I think the fact that you questioned your validity in this thread is an example of what I was asking on page 6, that men who identify as something other-than-straight, can experience whole other levels of isolation? Even to the point of being a man feeling isolated from a discussion about men's isolation? Just my thoughts.

Thank you Andy, for having the courage to post and opening up different points for discussion.

🌻birdy

[Quercus]

Hi Andy and Birdy and Paul and Mitch (Hamsolo) and Pepper,

Andy you've reinvigorated Tony's thread which I think is important. When I said who cares? I meant I don't care about sexuality. I don't think your sexuality makes a squat of difference in how valid or welcome your opinions are. They're valid opinions and you are a man. End of story for me.

That said... I understand why for you and for Birdy you see a different perspective. I am heterosexual so for me I've never had to have my opinions judged in that way. You have.

I like to think the forums are a non judemental place where we can get used to treating and expecting to be treated as people not one of the million labels we get offline.

I know Tony's had this thread in mind as inclusive to all. All sexualities. All cultures. All ages. All genders. All religions. I hope everyone can join in and share what it means from their point of view to be isolated as a man.

[blondguy]

Hello Andy Birdy and Quercus and everyone 🙂

Thankyou so much for the heartfelt thoughts on TonyWK's thread

Andy asked an important question "Why should it be men who set the rules and women who follow them?" If anyone has any thoughts on Andy's question it would great to hear your thoughts!

I hope everyone has had a reasonable weekend 🙂

My kind thoughts

Paul