Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[white knight]

Hi Geordie

Thanks for your care and input.

A few years ago I took advantage of 10 free visits to a psych. At the end of the visits she said "you are lucky as you know all the theory and unlucky you cant find a way of putting it into practice." So true.

But anyway a reminder is as good as reading up on things again. No harm and thanks. My illnesses are- bipolar2, depression, dysthymia and anxiety. I licked the anxiety around 6 years ago- it took me 25 years.

Topic: anxiety, how I eliminated it- beyondblue

You might be interested Geordie, that I suspect my mother has BPD of a the chronic kind. But in denial and now 87yo unlikely that will ever be diagnosed. I'm estranged from her the last 7 years and I wont ever meet her again such was the damage done over 54 years. I've also learned the effects of a narcissistic mother/parent on her children. My older brother suicide at 26yo, uncle at 82yo and cousin 48yo. My sister and I have both attempted it. We finally got relief when we sat down and refused to allow our mother to divide and conquer us any longer.

My first diagnosis in 2004 was bipolar 1 and ADHD. I was 48yo. So I took the appropriate medicine for 6 years before I got a second opinion. Nevertheless having mania didn't mean I didn't have some symptoms of ADHD that crossed over....lack of focus is one. Mania- owned 90 cars in my life, 80 jobs and 15 professions. Could do the work of 3 men when younger etc.

Today was the best day I've had for 3 weeks. I'm buoyed. Like a light has been switched on. It is definitely chemical, the change that happens.

Tony WK

[white knight]

MEN- HOW DO YOU PREFER TO BE TREATED?

I've asked this question as we men can be ultra sensitive. I think of all my jobs I've had and professions and the most valuable was as a prison officer. To be 21yo and be taught how to supervise prisoners correctly was gold. But the techniques, that were taught in order to save ones life from violence, was specific. These can also be used by women with men.

This was what was drummed into us-

Be fair, firm, direct, calm, clear, listen and understanding.

There were also principles that the old warder taught us. for example- if you berated a prisoner in front of a dozen other prisoners and you were proved wrong later, then if at all possible apologise to that prisoner, in front of, the other prisoners. This gave you much respect over time.

Men in general overall aren't much different. They have the pride of a lion and mateship is paramount. Just watch them in a footy match. Teamanship is important to men. Some may say blind loyalty.

I've listed some other ideas on the thread

Topic: talking to men, some tips- beyondblue use google.

Men don't like women bursting into emotions, suddenly crying or yelling. Then again, that's something a man should adapt to IMO. He cant get away from conflict without being partly to blame and he should make effort to seek out why his partner has "lost it". That's where men should make effort to understand women.

But in terms of how men are approached it is an interesting topic. I told my boss many years ago- "if you ask me nicely I'll do anything for you, tell me in other ways and I'll walk". That manager was ex army. I was ex RAAF. We understood each other because at one point in our lives we were both yelled at and made to do extraordinary feats in our training.

This means many men need to be coaxed, persuaded but not manipulated. Some actions can result in a permanent rejection by the man and being manipulated, swindled, stood over are all ways NOT to get a mans cooperation.

Tony WK

[Quercus]

Hi Tony,

I'm glad to hear today has been a good day for you. I hope tomorrow is too.

Ah tears. Your comment about being emotional made me smile and cringe in one.

I am emotional. Am pretty sure it drives my husband up the wall and would drive him away if he didn't know it is not intentional.

I've learned he is practical. When I am emotional and overwhelmed I just want to talk to discuss. He wants to get to the point, problem solve and know what I need him to do.

So... I'm learning to give him warning. If I am utterly emotional I will tell him I am overwhelmed and upset and tired and to ask him if he is able to just listen and let me let off some steam. Or to tell him I am angry or upset and tell him bluntly what the problem is and what I need him to consider or do or think about... And THEN we talk.

That seems to work for us most of the time. Then again... My husband seems to have patience of a saint where I am concerned.

[white knight]

Hi Quercus

"Men are practical". Yes, they strive to solve the problem then want to move on.

I note your routine is to warn him of your state of mind...good. his patience would be a great thing for you and your emotions.

Tony WK

[quirkywords]

Tony,

I am glad you felt better yesterday. I can relate to that switch too. I hope it stay on .

This thread is so helpful. I found that in the post, Men how do you prefer to be treated, I agreed that is way I like to be treated too. I feel most people would prefer to be coaxed or persuaded and not manipulated swindled or stood over. So I saw your post as being helpful for how to treat both men and women.

Thanks it was most interesting

Quirky

[Guest_1584]

Great idea for a thread guys , l'm all for men getting everything they can these days because it's long long long over due.

First thing l'll say about that is that when l was going through separation and later divorce , it was just mind boggling of how anyone and everyone, even departments, her own family, friends, just rolled out the carpet for ex w, yet she met someone else and broke up the family . She wasn't a bad chickie , but things had been rough in our last few years and l wasn't even sure if l still wanted to be married , but yaknow, she was the one that actually did it and around that point l wanted to save our marriage and family . Yet even her own parents instead of telling her to go home and fix her marriage , they bought her cars and lent her money and come up to see her every wkend , it was like poor little K.

Same with departments or any help out there , as a guy l'd just get looked at and the walk off, but if that was the ex they'd be cuddling her and throwing help and sympathy everywhere. it was totally mind boggling , everywhere l went or anyone l'd have to tell , nothing .

Thank god for mens line though and a few other places like dads in detress and a couple of forums or l'd have had absolutely nothing of anything.

lt also amazed me at how everyone , everyone , just assumed it was all my fault.

Some other thoyghts next , can't do too much at once.

rx

[Guest_1584]

Sorry , it's a dyslexic thing .

l find the same in forums/ internet, women say what they want about men and believe me some of it is just bloody disgusting. l find it amazing and can't believe some of the stuff women get away with saying about men though , anything, part, put down.

Thankfully a lot of men are fed up with it and giving it back, which has to be done, even if they have to tread on egg shells when women they can say what they please. Just thank God your not in America.

ln general though , l mean l am choosey about women l bother with and women l don't, in life. And l've got pretty good taste in women too haha , if l do say so myself . but l can pick a pain in the ass or the chip on the shoulder or the lopsided single minded thinker blind folded and see it comin at 100 paces haha. But nope they don't make me feel anything much , if any l actually feel a little above those types because l can see them easily but they have no clue l do, l can say what they'll say before it's even said , but they don't know that either.

l like good women , yaknow , got no time for rubbish. Good hearts , good person, common sense, no chip on the shoulder, good to talk to , warm , depth . My mum was like that , my ex was like that , my daughters like that and probably has more smarts and sees more and wisdom, in her little finger than most 40 yr olds. and my gf's have been like that too. lt's the sort of women l like and get along with.

l've got 6 sisters too, lucky me eh. plenty of drama and they'll argue about two flies crawling up a wall, some of them a touch feministic but over all always supportive and offered help and did a lot of things for the boys as we call us, got a heap of brothers too, they haven't been bad at all really and often very good but they're mostly good women with good hearts.

As far as house work and crap , well , we had a bushy one ac and a run down house we were renovating and before that we had two other renovators and it was a very very simple system. lf ex or l wanted to play around out side or on some of the other stuff , the other one might so some inside stuff or vise versa or sometimes together. it was never any dramas .

Growing up dad helped out if mum couldn't or was tired or whatever but he often worked late and ran 3 businesses so she didn't expect him to do too much.

rx

[white knight]

Hi random,

Thanks for your posts.

I think its a fact that men need womens dedication to mens needs as well as men need men. Thats the purpose of this thread, that we cant any longer deal with the isolation. The suicide rates are huge for men. We need all the help we can get.

Lets not forget, women have been discriminated against for centuries in other ways. The fact is though for decades the kids have remained with their mother in most situations when a split occurs .

My ex with our 2 kids, pension, part family allowance and child support had an income 50% higher that I did and I worked 72 hours a week 12 hour shifts.

But the fact is the courts are moving towards equal child share. And men are learning to support men in distress

We need our women to help us. We need awareness of the issues. We need to end isolation.

Tony WK

[Guest_1584]

Eh Tony/

Yeah def' you touched on huge things there l didn't even get to yet. And yeah about the past with women discrimination and so much of the "now" . is fair enough and past unfair. l don't deny that at all but so much of the "now" is also going totally over board and against men now too. Men can't have anything men now, not even football or a mens shed, it's past ridiculous, in many many things but to me they are just two silly little examples.

But, for divorced dads, the saddest of all. So many fathers were kept from their kids in the past , so so wrong and more than most could bare or should. The attitudes of she gets the children and he only see's he's own kids when she dictates and even courts help "her", with, a few pathetic hours a wk, a fortnight , was criminal. And so often the attitudes of the mums and just people were and often still are unbelievable. l've heard and read it all this last 5yrs. It's a huge thing and the same for the kids.

l still can't believe that stuff could even happen , but it could and has for years, even supported. Even attitudes of family , women , assumptions it's all just fine dad goes without he's own children and they only see him a few hrs a wk or 2 wks, mind boggling. heartbreaking.

Thankfully things were changing in my time although there wAs still so much of it going on. But my ex and l work well together and l see my d anytime. But there was also things l had to fight like hell for but there was no way l was taking the norm of the pasts. And there's a lot of 50 50 to now and thank God's that's becoming norm. Even ads on tv of how important dads are now, it's just fantastic and all l can say is just keep it all coming . Be with your kids dads and don't let anyone tell you or force you otherwise.

Men have to make awareness happen Tony , start speaking up again and pushing for their own things and needs, insist on it actually or society will just steamroll straight over them these days.

l'm not saying we have to become almost necrotic about it like many women have , or go around in life auguring and angry ,but you know, just don't take it if it's happening around you or to you. And speak up to other men if you see it happening to them. Or if women in your life are too one sided or even blind to things often the case, say something. put your foot down.

[Guest_1584]

Can l just add , sorry but l feel very very strongly about dads out there and what many go through. And l know there may be some that pass through.

l can't go there anymore myself , it's too much now l've lived it nearly 6yrs and my d is 17now and we've been together the whole time , but it's taken everything l have to keep it that way.

l've also brought that l know of , around a dozen dads back together with their kids , dads that thought they had to miss out and their kids growing up without them. NO , you don't.

But please don't go in guns blazing , there's hopefully no need for that , that's not what l'm saying and it's the worst thing you can do. Try to keep things on good terms with ex , keep spite, anger and bitterness away and especially from the kids too. Try to build things between the ex if it isn't already, peacefully but strong. Gently stand your ground and try to sort through everything away from the kids. You know your ex w, what makes her tick and how to work with her ,, USE IT. and build on it , peacefully if possible.Be nice your both still your kids parents and you need to work together . And your kids need to know none of this is their fault and mum and dad still love them as much as ever. They need to hear it feel it, you'd be amazed what our poor kids feel and think if they don't.

And one more thing, and this may be just me but if you can build that with the ex , then personally l feel there are no need for courts or for you or your kids to be put through that rubbish. You want things as open relaxed and casual and as close to real life as possible .

My ex and l have had to suck a lot up admittedly and it has been very hard at times . But my daughter is the most together kid in her clan and she has a great loving, open and peaceful relationship with me and her mum. That's what ya want.

The very best to everyone.

rx