Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[white knight]

Hi all

The interesting comments here are blowing my mind. I'm buoyed by them thankyou.

PamelaR, I can imagine you getting involved in those movements in the 80's. I have read some of your comments of your past woes and walk beside you. As a man I feel sad that with ladies like you, the hurt ones, I just wish I could pick you up and carry you to a place of safety where your wounds would heal.

Kanga, I think people misunderstand us often. On some occasions in a group I've been howled down for my views but when I've clarified them with extra words they back off. Sometimes though we aren't given that opportunity. In such cases I tell myself "Tony, they don't understand you because they don't really know what you are saying". I then dismiss them. Remember, lack of wisdom isn't confined to us with mental illness where it is hidden under our intelligence, some people lack it simply because they are dumb.

Ggrandy, my daughter now 29yo says "dad be true to yourself".

James, you can get a pink motorbike mate. Tank, guards, other bits are easy to take off and drop in to the spray painter.

Tony WK

[white knight]

Hi everyone

I'm particularly interested in the topic of suicidal thoughts. It is a really important topic and we will be gentle with it ok.

Guys, all guys including (and it goes without saying- indigenous and Torres Straight Islanders who we pass on our respect) can you tell us- if you have ever gone down that dark road, what are the things that a person in your company or a friend or partner could do to help you in that moment? Where ever you are or what ever you are doin we will leave aside, lets talk about what assistance someone could do for you. Let us assume you have your phone on you turned on. You might have someone nearby. What are the things they could do to comfort you? How did you feel when at your lowest in terms of bein alone or not wanting human contact etc.

Ladies- have you been in the above situation and wondered what to do.? Have you felt you could do nothing to change his mood? Have you been successful in saving him from something he might do? How do you feel about that period when he seems beyond helping?

Tony WK

[PamelaR]

Super cool White Knight! Thank you for picking me up and moving me somewhere I'll be safe. That means so, so much to me. OMG I'm crying. It takes a bit for me to get teary. So you should feel rather flattered Tony. The wounds heal, but sometimes the scabs peel back or the scars hurt. Having said that, in all I'm not too bad. It's realising that it is with me for life - and that's okay. Just manage it Pammy!

[kanga_brumby]

Tony I like where your going with this.

When I am on the dark path wanting to take a short way out. Usually the best thing to do is let me prattle on for a while. But don't go away I will need you because usually I do something that will make me laugh. Something silly but safe off the wall strange it could be something like putting on a black eye patch. Then acting like a pirate,for no apparent reason. but it might just be the ticket at that moment.

Kanga

[Quercus]

Hi Tony and everyone,

What a beautiful point Kanga. Sometimes we don't need to do anything but be present and patient and willing to listen.

Feels a lifetime ago my friends watched as one of the men in our group got purposefully drunk. Mixed drinks. Shot after shot. Quickly. Shrugged everyone off. Not enjoying himself but purposefully drowning in booze.

When he finally left to be sick (and alone) I noticed the other men left him be. They looked awkwardly at eachother hoping someone else would go. So I went.

There was nothing difficult to do apart from fend off apologies (it's just vomit, I wasn't enjoying the party anyway) and silently be there.

Yep the floor was freezing. Yep the loo was cramped and yes it smelled yuck. But I just provided the basic first aid and waited. Eventually he started to talk.

His family friend had committed suicide.

The hurt and pain we talk about... The hurt had moved on from his friend to him.

The isolation and fear to ask for help had been given to him.

The guilt. Should I have known? Should I have done something.

I wonder now is this why his male friends waited for a woman to act?

The need he showed was so obvious. And all I had to do was listen and pass tissues. And quietly reassure him of course he is allowed to feel so upset! Someone he loved had committed suicide! That devestation and grief... Is normal even for a man.

Why was that so impossible for a male friend to do?

Was it fear of being seen as gay sitting in a toilet with another man?

Not knowing what to do?

Feeling awkward about tears?

Not feeling able to hold his hand quietly?

Reluctance to see another man utterly broken and devestated?

I don't know. But it made me sad.

James mentioned the awkward male side hug. I hate it. Sometimes we need that all encompassing hug that says I'm holding you together because you don't seem able to.

[blondguy]

Hey TonyWK

This is a seriously great thread topic

I dont want to wallow in the past but I wish the females I knew at the time just 'understood' even a tiny bit about my chronic anxiety at the time.....My male friends tried to understand and hung in there with me which was great however my close girlfriends 'disappeared' as they 'had to go out and socialise' when I was a nervous wreck.

Please dont get me wrong as I am not starting a gender war here....just saying what happened as per my experience

Paul

[white knight]

Hi

Pamela, keep going Pammy"

Thats the way

Kanga, I think you have mention one of the best ideas I've heard of- measured and timed HUMOUR. As the tears begin to dwindle and talk has been done, try getting a laugh.

I'm really impressed by your suggestion. Just what I wanted.

Nat, I dont know why those guys didnt follow him. This is the gap in education of men/boys. In fact as an older male I'd be yelling at them. My brother in 1979 took his life. I know what its like to lose someone.

So, education is needed and if we have it, it isnt working.

Holding his hand a guy would feel odd sadly but a hand on the shoulder and a final hug would not be out of order.

Thanks Nat. An important reply thankyou

Tony WK

[james1]

For me, honestly, I would have just liked silent company.

Even putting aside the "men don't talk stereotype", I don't feel comfortable talking and at my lowest, I just wanted to be comfortable - to have someone around me, hopefully doing something with me, that put zero pressure on me.

So, honestly, that would probably be something inane like sitting on the couch and playing mario kart on nintendo. Takes me back to being a kid again.

[white knight]

Thankyou James, your input is invaluable with this feedback

I understand. Although I think it would be normal for friends to try to talk first to see if they get a response. If they don't (I've felt that way too and I signal with an open palm, stop sign that I don't want to talk) then they know to stop talking.

I've been there. Sometimes my wife will wait a few minutes for the hallowing to cease then try again. She has been known to say "I'll get a cuppa" and that breaks the ice because once she has left the vicinity I then feel I am able to stand and walk to a table. Then the grief process has broken.

I have also broken my silence when asked "how do you have your coffee"? Just saying "milk no sugar" is a deal breaker. So we have

• Educating men into active support of their own sex. Actually I'll correct that....for anyone!
• Measured and timed humour
• Silent company
• Providing/asking- a cup of tea/coffee

This is really productive everyone. Please keep going with suggestions.

Tony WK

[Elizabeth CP]

James I think that many people (not just men) are like you. Knowing someone cares enough to spend time with you WITHOUT putting pressure to talk deeply is important. Earlier I shared an example of Jack being supported by Ben (not real names) through a difficult time. Ben chose activities he thought Jack would enjoy (this included having a meal with Ben's family & mountain bike riding on a Saturday morning.) When Jack felt up to it he could talk but he didn't have to & the activities were one's which could take his mind off his problems temporarily.

To Tony's list I add

Showing you care by suggesting shared activities which the person enjoys which can provide an outlet or distraction.

. Providing opportunities to talk but NO pressure to do so & if they do open up be very wary of giving advice or trying to 'fix' the problem .

If you don't want to talk or do something then make sure the other person knows. It is fine using gestures if the other person knows what you mean but unhelpful if they don't & then you get upset because they 'ignore your gesture or response.