Men isolated

[white knight]

I'd like to hear from men. I want to know your inner feelings about anything that you feel isolated about. I'd like to know if you feel that the revolution towards equality of the sexes has gone too far to a point whereby you are feeling inferior to women or you feel women are being treated better in any way - just because you are a man.

Emotionally, are you feeling that you get enough support from females? Do you feel women are afraid to hug you to comfort you for any reason? like you'll take advantage of them? Do you have many female friends? Do you feel that women socialize better? What do YOU want socially?

Feel free, talk, let go of your restraints, take advantage of the anonymous environment to let yourself be heard. We can do this and be in error, that our presumptions are ill directed and unfair. It could be our own inapproachability for example that can sway women away from us when we need them most.

Are we misread? I know when I'm in conflict with someone I come across as a little aggressive or arguing in a normal male manner and that can portray someone that is not in need of support but is someone to avoid. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So that's one gripe. I feel women don't pursue the friendship care far enough. Such limited care results in my feelings of isolation. I think I'm a "giver" apart from my supportive wife no woman supports me anywhere near the level I give to them. Is this an illusion? What do you think?

Two people. One a woman that enters a group, say a hobby group. She sits down and isn't feeling emotionally well. She is asked a question like "how is your day"? She burst into tears. The whole group of 10 ladies stand and hold her hand, hand on her shoulder, comforting and reassurance. She is not alone. They even ring her later and talk at length. The other person a middle aged male enters a motoring clubroom in his local town, his male friends restore cars and share drinks. He sits and realizes he was in no shape to attend. A guy asks him how his restoration is going. He is upset thinking about his car as due to his depression he hasn't been to his shed for weeks. He suddenly starts crying. The men, all of whom start to feel uncomfortable, mention a few things like" you'll get there don't worry". He is worried because he knows that half of the men there actually think he is a softy by crying, to stand clear of him because he has problems, to avoid him as it might upset their own happy day in the sun....

Tony WK

[Doolhof]

Hi Tony and Everyone,

Another very interesting thread. I grew up playing netball wanting to play AFL, back when I was a kid that was not the done thing. I was a bit of TomBoy...not sure if we can even use that expression anymore!

Even in that, it was accepted in a way that some girls were not girly girls but not so when a boy was not a real boy...what ever that was meant to mean!

I have some male friends whom I care for deeply and have been there for them in their time of need. One guy was suicidal and we went out driving for hours, he said it helped him. I have found that even though I love these guys dearly, they have not been reciprocal in returning care when I have been needing help and care.

Maybe they just don't know how to show it or feel uncomfortable doing so. I don't know.

My husband works nights. He will wake me up when he gets home so he can tell me what went wrong during his shift and he can talk for an hour or so. The next day I might feel crap and want to tell him how I feel. All I get is a "That is no good dear" and he walks away.

Tony, you have been such a wonderful support to so many people here on the forum and I assume you do the same in real life. I am very sorry that you have not felt supported by the females you have encountered nor felt like you can express your true feelings and emotions to guys either.

Please know that I would gladly give you a hug any time you needed one, I would sit with you and listen to all you needed to say and offer you some tissues if you cry. I'd make you a cup of your favourite brew and just sit and watch the world go by if that is what you wanted to do.

Tony, please know how much you are appreciated here on the forum!

Hugs to you from Dools

[white knight]

Paul, thanks for your post.

Im old enough to remember the tv ad "thankyou very much for doing the dishes, thankyou very much for being my misses" then the guy gives his wife a block of chocolates!

so bad! But now, as you rightly pointed out, the sexes revolution is better but distorted. The subtle abuse of rolling the eyes is saying "typical man" and it makes men feel like they are being treated as a child.

Dools. I do acknowledge a huge gap between men when it comes to returning the favour of support. With hubby can I suggest instead of mentioning your subject that it be planned better eg I'd like to make a cuppa and chat with no distractions if thats ok. No phones or tv. The length of time to drink tea might be much more than you get now. But yes, I'm sure it would make you feel hollow.

Thanks mrs Dools.

I think I've realised why male suicide rates are so high.

• Men not asking for help openly
• Men not supporting men
• Men feeling alienated
• Women not supporting men
• Women supporting each other

If women didnt support each other then maybe suicide rates for women would be higher.

I pose the question-

Are male suicide rates high or female suicide rates low? Low due to asking for support and freely getting it among themselves?

Tony WK

[white knight]

SUICIDE TOPICS

Guys, have you attempted suicide? Firstly what is “attempted”.
Definition-verb

past tense: attempted; past participle: attempted
1. make an effort to achieve or complete (something difficult).
"she attempted a comeback in 2001"
synonyms: try, strive, aim, venture, endeavour, seek, set out, do one's best, do all one can, do one's utmost, make an effort, make every effort, spare no effort, give one's all, take it on oneself;
o try to climb to the top of (a mountain).
"the expedition was the first to attempt Everest"
o archaic
-try to take (a life).

So to “try” . By that it means to try to take your life and that includes a huge spectrum. I’d suspect that many men have attempted suicide yet don’t classify it as an attempt per say. This is to your detriment because it, in your own mind, limits the seriousness of the act- plays it down. We men tend to do that. It might mean you feel more manly by denying it. Lets talk.

From say the thought level of attempt as we know it when you are of course distraught, usually alone (yes I know the feeling) and you take a step, any step, towards ending your life…any step. I wont go further as it isn’t necessary, is against the rules here and provides no purpose.

From my own event in 1996 I’ve learned post that to acknowledge that at that very moment that is how I felt. If I could have stepped back for an hour, a day…even 30 minutes it would have been different as my mind would not have remained in that state for very long. Desperation has no endurance!!! It passes. It is really that simple lets not cloud this issue with facts and figures. You might have heard men or women say "I'll never go down that road again" well that's why, because having survived it we know that it was a mentality that lasted only a short time.
So, in saying that can you promise yourself that you will ALLOW yourself time to get over that emotional hump when it arrives again? Can you say to yourself “I’m feeling like this now, but I will not in a short time so I will not continue on this path, I wont hurt my family and friends and I'll give myself another chance” If you can I for one will be so proud that you have used your last fragment of strength to survive.

Let us as fellow humans join together to get through this?

If you need ring Beyondblue on 1300 22 4636 lifeline on 13 11 14
I have rang lifeline twice in 40 years. It isn’t anything to be wary of. It’s just a chat. It helps.

Hey bro, thanks for reading.
Tony WK

[quirkywords]

Great thread.

I have lots to think about. My two sons are very different from each other, not based on gender but on their personalities.

Something I have wondered if women mainly raise boys why has not much changed could it mean there are so many different factors that affect why we behave as we do, apart from our gender.

Quirky

[kanga_brumby]

Thanks Tony for this opportunity to off load in this day and age of political correctness gone ballistic. Ever since I can remember, I have complemented women on their appearance. With equal praise to all. In more recent years I have been criticized for giving out praise to one woman saying it was sexual harassment All I had said was she looked good in a dress she had on. I had to explain I did not want sex from any person in that room at all To me all women are beautiful if you have seen some of the women I have called beautiful you would say I need glasses. But the way I see it turn off the lights they all look the same. It's the same for men turn off the lights we all look the same. Beauty is only skin deep, Ugly goes to the bone. I have met people who have fantastic cloths cars jewellery, and others who only buy at target or opp shop. I have seen beauty at both ends and ugly mainly at one.

Kanga

[white knight]

Hi Quirky

Yes, personality is such an individual factor. It's vital we look for signs of unhappiness. Men are the masters of hiding it.

Hi Kanga,

Thnaks for joining.

There is a saying "don't forget to grease the cherry tree"

That means prepare the person you are addressing with what you are about to say. In the cases whereby I compliment a woman (and my lovely wife is full aware) I might say

"I'm happily married by the way but can I compliment you on your dress, I love fashion" rather than "I like you in a dress"

This occured in a fish and chip shop a few years ago. This lady had dark red hair, short curls and a wet hair look. She looked stunning. "My wife wont be jealous but I'll say I love your hair" to which she replied "I'll take a compliment anyday"

The greasing of the cherry tree is in that example "my wife wont be jealous..." and in the example before it "I'm happily married by the way..."

Don't worry, it took most of my 62 years to get to use the greasy cherry tree effect. In fact "foot in mouth" can be the effect of mental illness.

I read years ago in a book about adult ADHD (I thought I had it) that the mind of an ADHD person can say something and not be aware of how it has come out. That often it is taken as offensive.

I was a control room operator once. I then worked 3 jobs around the clock trying to build my new single life. I was tired and had just finished building my own home on top of the three jobs- wow eh. Well I thought about giving the keys to my house to say a teenager in my small town to clean my house for a few dollars. I went to work at 8pm and at 7am at my most tired a fireman arrived for work. He came in and said "do you know of any jobs available for my daughter" I said what age? he said "18" I replied "yeh mate, I'll give her a job". He got angry and walked out. No matter how apologetic I was - his anger was concrete.

So I was then harassed by all firefighters there. I was eventually sent back to security with a demotion. Less pay etc. Eventually everyone realise dover time that that fellow took many things negatively and the truth came out. Even some bosses apologized to me. Too little too late.

So for those situation I always grease the cherry tree. It will help you get through life without so much misunderstanding.

Thanks for posting Kanga.

Tony WK

[james1]

Just another point I've remembered, related to all this: do you think men really know each other?

So I've literally heard this comment from my mum, my sister, my ex and my current girlfriend after I've just met up with another male friend: How did you spend hours together and not know anything about what they're up to?

So I thought about what I get up to with my mates, usually: watch the footy, do some sort of sport, play xbox, drink beer doing any of the above. There's plenty of time to talk, but what do we normally talk about? Very basic how was your week, then some combination of ribbing each other or silence.

Occasionally the conversation will dip into something more deep, but it only ever dips there. There's usually a pretty quick retreat - "it'll be alright", "i'll figure it out later". We seem uncomfortable talking about these things with each other.

I know nothing about their personal lives because their personal life seems personal. In group situations, this seems understandable. But catching up with a very close friend, one on one? it just strikes me as bizarre that I often leave knowing nothing new about the person except that they cut their hair a week ago, and that they think my haircut is even worse than theirs.

[white knight]

Great question James.

I'm guessing when I suggest it might stem from homophobic history in the male world. Just guessing.

In 1973 I joined the RAAF after attending a male only High school. Homophobia was rife, boy it had a big effect on every man. Them days we played cards a lot on our single beds (no desks, chairs) and jokes were always there about suggesting you were "one of them" (my God how I'm glad this is gone now largely). Then in the wisdom of the ADF a law was brought in that no member can be on a bed with another member without both having one foot on the floor LOL. So there we were all with one foot on the floor. I digress a little.

My point being, likely many generations ago even back to medieval times men were strong and if you weren't then "you weren't a man". you'd be cast away, ridiculed, looked sideways at. So men likely developed into non deep expressive souls- lost souls, lonely souls, to remain manly

Up until about 10 years ago I refrained from talking deep to my friends. I would join women and chat to them, I was more at home with them in depth. My wife is the envy of others in her sewing group (not bragging here) in that their husbands don't like talking about why this why that, about emotions

My suggestion is that there will come a time when they will open up. I went to school with a friend (46 years ago!) but 20 years ago his dad died. I'd never seen him cry. He did at his gravesite. I placed my hand on his shoulder, I wanted to hug him but didn't take the risk of rejection (as you've previously mentioned). The next day I asked him how he felt at the gravesite "worse feeling ever Tony"...I said "And I've felt that every second day of my life" He then realized my need to open up and the significance of mental illness, but still has that gap that females don't seem to have.

In the last 10 years I've decided that having male "mates" isn't essential and having female "mates" is even better for the above reason. My wife isn't jealous, she knows my commitment to her, she accepts my connection to women and laughs, "that's you".

I had a purpose for my 300 poems 12 years ago. To help victims of crime. So I met up with a couple my age that lost two daughter, their only children through crime. I met her at her childrens new graves. I asked her if I could sent her some "stuff". I began to send poems with the intention of healing. 12 years later I'm still sending them. We now, 4 of us, go camping etc. She is my best "mate".

Tony WK

[Just Sara]

Hi Tony;

I'm reading each post as it arrives and am really happy you've handled what could turn into a battle of the sexes, with great care and skill. Thankyou...

My son was bought up with little contact from his father, grandfather or uncles who I felt were less than suitable as role models. He did have contact with friends fathers and I'm ever so grateful as I struggled to come to terms with him being 'a mummy's boy' wrapped in cotton wool by an overprotective mum.

As it's turned out, his self care's very good with regular visits to his GP and straight to the hosp for urgent matters. He talks things over with me and his de facto girlfriend when he's at odds with decisions for instance, and seems able to conquer fears around women.

We've openly discussed suicide which was a difficult issue to bring up, but he handled it with open dialog and confidence.

Single parent families with only mum to rely on, some critics have said, will be the demise of our future societal norms. This disturbed me to hear...

I'm proud of your decision to start this thread, and also to keep it running and on topic. You're doing wonders Tony! I hope it's therapeutic...

Sez

[white knight]

Hi Sez,

In fact this thread has been the catalyst of my turning the tide against my latest depressive bout, I hope, signs are good.

mmm, battle of the sexes, yes I have been careful, I wouldn't want that at all. Input from everyone is important.

I get annoyed also from judgements made against others for their predicament or even chosen circumstances. Single mum with a boy, one of your many accomplishments, he seems well adjusted and open to talk about topics often young men shy away from.

Thankyou for your comments Sez.

Tony WK