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C-PTSD and fear of people
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Warning: possibly trauma activating content.
I have made significant improvements in complex trauma symptoms in the past year. One of my biggest fears is that people are going to harm me which is ever-present but had lessened a lot. Then on Monday I got triggered by something that is probably not harmful but activated terror in me. It’s too much to explain the context here.
Do others have this extreme fear of people and if so is there something that you’ve found helps you?
To me it is experienced as life threatening terror. I can feel my body literally recoil from any contact with humans. Animals are safe to me but not humans. I have experienced a lot of trauma throughout my life.
Over the past week I’ve had unrelenting anxiety which yesterday also became depression which I know is a result of the anxiety not resolving. I want to run away from all people and go somewhere remote in nature. I’m also dealing with bouts of cognitive confusion linked to an autoimmune condition I have which isn’t helping.
I know self-isolation is not a good or healthy long term strategy. However, I want total isolation from people right now. It is the only way I can feel safe. It can feel like this is the only way I can be safe in life, to avoid people as much as possible, even though there is part of me that loves people and wants connection. But right now connection feels profoundly dangerous. I am back in the centre of my childhood terror.
Right now the Bruce Springsteen song Brothers Under the Bridge is speaking to me in which a Vietnam veteran tries to explain his need for isolation to his daughter. I think my grandfather was like this in how he isolated from others following traumatic war experiences. I think I’m trying to work my way out of this inherited intergenerational trauma as well.
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Dear ER~
I hope you and Tony don't mind me interrupting your conversation for a moment.
You raised an interesting point about seeing the environment people come from, particularly parents, and maybe tempering you judgment of their behaviour by remembering the good even though you do recognize selfishness, narcissism and more.
This is a question I've never been able ot satisfactorily answer, and while I recognize a poor life can generate a similar one I've not been able to get way from judgment. Maybe having a been a policeman and seeing people at their worst and the effects they have has influenced me, however I'm still inclined to think under most circumstances people are responsible for their actions.
Maybe it is related to barriers and not going overboard excusing people (I'm too old to have answers:)
This may seem a little harsh to some, however results can be horrendous.
I do like the sound of your feisty good-hearted neighbor. Feistyness can be an excellent tool to keep all at bay until one can decide if one should let them in and can also make necessary but unpleasant announcements easier. I suspect it is not the same as rudeness - what do you think?
Croix
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Welcome Croix
Thanks for your input. I have two responses.
I as you know have bipolar. Bipolar has been used in law courts for excuses as to why the guilty did the crime. Initial response by people is "he's using MI as a pure excuse. Yet bipolar and indeed ADHD sufferers often go one side or the other- crime or law enforcement as depicted by Weiss in his book 'Adhd in adults'.
The other side, environment- I've often thought about a comment by my uncle in 1979. "There has always been a problem with the females of the family". My mothers mother was like my mother and my grandmothers 3 sisters all were to. So here's the crunch- if a person eg my mother is asked to visit a GP to check if there is any emotional issue and goes into denial... then that's the end of any relationship. I suspect she has bad and if so treatment is very difficult. Patients usually last 6 weeks then don't return often claiming the psych has mental issues...
TonyWK
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Dear Croix,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments. I think feistyness probably is different from rudeness. If I think of my neighbour, she has never actually been rude even though she expresses herself very strongly. She talks tough and yet has a heart of gold. I’ve heard her telling off a service provider but the sternness was probably appropriate and got the message across. So I think I could do with a bit of feisty in me. I’ve definitely lacked it for much of my life. But I am noticing it emerging a little. It’s only ever really comes out on rare occasions when I’ve been pushed to extremes before.
As I love birds and animals, I can’t help thinking of willie wagtails and grey fantails, both confident, feisty little birds. I remember a brown goshawk landing in a tree where I once lived. All the small birds went silent in fear, except a willie wagtail that aggressively chattered, harassed and attacked the much bigger goshawk non-stop. The goshawk looked non-plussed and eventually flew away. So I need a bit of that I think!
What I’m reckoning with at the moment is coming to terms with my parents’ behaviours that really weren’t ok and naming those behaviours for what they are. I’ve always focussed on the good and in many ways that has been healing. But the dark side has to be reckoned with too, and both my parents exhibited pretty shocking and immature behaviours at times. Both said and did things to put down and injure me (and they did that to one another too).
When I was 13 I was in my guitar lesson and I would get this involuntary shaking. My guitar teacher took my hands to stop them shaking and said is everything ok at home. Of course I said yes. So right now I’m trying to correctly see that actually certain behaviours were abusive.
I understand what you mean about the difficulty of answering the question with regard to tempering judgement. I don’t think I would have caused the same degree of harm if I’d been a parent. I think I would have made mistakes, for sure, based on the inadequacies of my own upbringing, but I can’t imagine that I would have been deliberately cruel to my own children.
I experience a kind of painful conflict I feel in my heart when I name my parents’ behaviours for what they were. As a child of course you want to believe in the good to help yourself feel safe. Admitting your parents are a danger to you then can feel like it threatens your very existence. So I’ve probably maintained a positive view to protect myself from childhood onwards.
I struggle too with my brother because some of his behaviours have also been selfish and narcissistic. I struggle to write that but it’s something I have to admit is real. I’m learning you sometimes have to develop a bit of a stern view of reality. I was severely abused by my brother’s partner following my mother’s death. I ended up collapsing on the side of the road at night while she kept abusing me. It nearly pushed me over the edge. Her behaviour was abhorrent and I’m quite sure she thought she could get away with it because of my gentle nature. I’ve had nothing to do with her since shortly after that. But if I did ever cross paths again, let’s just say I know some very strong words would come out of my mouth. I’d let her know the damage she did and what I think of her.
So I can feel myself getting a lot stronger and part of that includes seeing things in the cold light of day. I think I am learning to defend my boundaries and it is necessary.
Thank you for your questions Croix. They help me process and come to terms with things.
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Hi Tony,
Your mother sounds a bit like my mother’s mother. My mother told me a doctor apparently tried to suggest to her mother once she might have depression. She sternly denied it. She was miserable her whole life before she decided to end it. However, my mother also mostly denied actually being depressed. In later years she did say to doctors a few times she had a bit of anxiety. They kept giving her sample packs of meds to try. She would take only about 3 tablets over a period of time when she felt really bad, when they were antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds that are meant to be taken daily. After she died I found all the sample packs with only about 3 tablets used in each. I knew she was doing this because she told me she just took them now and then. I did my best to explain they are not like a headache tablets, they actually need to be taken daily for an extended period.
Sorry, long story, but I think denial of a mental health issue is a significant problem for some people. She probably never wanted to admit she might have mental health struggles like her mother. She was very threatened and reactive when she found out I was going to therapy. I’m glad I’ve been able to reach out for external help. I wish my parents had gotten help, but they came from a time mental health assistance was more stigmatised and I think there might have been a stubborn denial in any case.
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Dear Croix, thanks so much for your thoughtful input. I sent a reply but got a moderator message so don’t know if and when it will appear, must go to bed now but thanks again 🙏
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ER
Re: "Her behaviour (SIL) was abhorrent and I’m quite sure she thought she could get away with it because of my gentle nature"
My father, the most placid of men tolerated mother. However he'd reminded her "you know what will happen if I walk past the front gate, all i need is my swag". He was referring to his limit. He'd leave everything to her and return to his family shed forced him to disown.
If such limits weren't present in people, there is no deterrent. As a child there was no limit in you, no deterrent for your parents yo stop their abuse of you.
Even a kitten will defend itself in the upper limits.
In many cases we meet the wrong people that we can't facilitate with our wonder.
TonyWK
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Thanks Tony,
Yes, I am learning my limits. I become empowered when I recognise them. I’ve reached a point of zero tolerance for bullying behaviour. It is never ok under any circumstances. When I told my brother his partner’s behaviour was wrong following the particularly abusive incident, his excuse for her was, “Well we’re all a bit #$&@ed up.” There simply is no excuse and you can’t defend that behaviour. I’ve seen him make a reasonable request of her, her throw a tantrum, yelling at the top of her voice and stomping her feet angrily as she storms off to another room, and then him meekly following to try and placate her. It sounds like your father was in a similar kind of position, placating and tolerating your mother. It’s hard to watch isn’t it because you feel like you are losing them to tyranny. But I’ve realised there’s not a thing I can do about it. I think all we can do is get on with our own lives and be around good, kind-hearted people. I’m taking great care now about who I spend time with, become friends with etc. Only kindness, goodness, love and respect going forward.
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ER
Marvellous. I'm hoping you are coping with this thread as it could be quite intense.
TonyWK
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Thanks Tony,
I feel like I’m going through some kind of transformative fire at the moment but in a good way. A lot of fear is coming up, then strength and assertiveness, then more fear, then more strength etc. It’s like an intense transition out of lifelong patterns. So I’m coping and riding the wave.
Minutes ago I had a call from one of two people I’m finding challenging at the moment. It’s my lifelong pattern of ending up with someone clinging to me and expecting me to respond to all their needs and wishes. In the past I thought I had to respond to them and make them happy based on my childhood conditioning. But my internal wise compass is telling me, no, don’t respond to this person. Instinctively I didn’t answer the call. Their phone message was quite demanding like I owe them something when I absolutely don’t. I’m so over people invading my personal space and life. It was almost a threatening call and it’s hard not to feel a bit rattled, but the tone of it makes it easy for me to go, no, steer clear of that person.
Boundaries have been the hardest thing for me. Desperate and exploitive people would sense I had a vulnerable boundary and immediately try and cross it. I’ve got to get fierce at defending my boundary and I am.
I had actually just been listening to a podcast that included discussion of how hard boundaries are for people with complex PTSD. So many of us were made to be parents to our parents from when we were very small. We were never taught to be a person in our own right. It’s made me so vulnerable in my life trying to figure out how to defend and protect myself from others who think it’s my job to parent them. So I’m having to become like a lioness or other wild animal defending her space. I think I’ll go and watch some nature documentary footage!
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Animal behaviour is a good to study. I'm happy you have declared your boundaries to yourself, the most important person. Those that demand you attend to them will learn the new Eagle doesnt do that anymore and they will comply or drift, one of the two.
Out of 7 cousins in the one family there was the eldest 2. The eldest was short and stubby and was drafted in the Army around 1970. The second oldest was tall strong and physically challenged by everyone, he liked flexing his muscles. The older one returned home from the Army and missed out on Vietnam thankfully. As the parents listened intently to the older ones experiences the 2nd oldest got jealous. Later that day he wanted to flex his muscles and started a play fight with the ex Army trained cousin. He used his Army training to subdue him again and again. Finally the taller one walked off and it never happened again. The boundary was fixed. In fact he'd voice to others "you dont want to front him, he'll take control of you in a second".
I wasnt)
Boundaries are natural for most. But if you aren't taught to implement them (I wasnt also) they are unnatural and without good parental guidance those boundary positions are guesswork. As we tackle our friends with demands we are at a risk of over reacting or under reacting. Under reacting as the friend could think you are joking as it is out of character or over reacting because we are desperate to enforce change. I would suggest ER, that either error under or over is ok based on the error they made in relying on your fixit mentality. They have developed, taken advantage of your non boundary existence.
So I was lucky. Although I didnt have boundaries until 21yo I developed them when a prison officer at a high maximum jail. I left there 3 years later (after my brother took his life) and had a Jeckle and Hyde persona. I could switch to either in a moment, so the greatest gift was born, my defence mechanism if needed. The older I got the more likely I'd switch to needed aggression if physically threatened. That eventually led to becoming decisive in arguments especially with my mother. Once a girl raised in a Tassy farm environment she could no longer compete with a son that had become "worldly" and judged her antics accordingly. Her behaviour became transparent. So her last minute defence was demanding respect of which she had lost.
TonyWK
TonyWK