Is depression a natural reaction to an insane world?

[Unbeliever]

This is a thought I have been pondering for a while.

The default to view depression as "something wrong", or a "brain chemical imbalance" or as "a disease" or something that "needs to be fixed" or requires "medication" or "therapy" appears to be the most common response of practically everyone. 

From doctors, to psychiatrists, to therapists, to the general population, to the depressed individuals themselves... the universal belief appears to be that "the person needs to get help".

But what if... the living in depressed state is correct? What if it isn't an "imbalance" or isn't something "wrong"? What if being depressed is the only natural state to be in for an intelligent, empathetic, compassionate, informed, thinking individual to exist in the current state of our world?

What if to NOT be depressed about is the true indication of mental sickness?

I'm not saying that being depressed is fun in any way... most people on this forum would be well aware that it sucks. But that is not what I'm saying. 

What I mean is... could existing in a state of depression be completely natural for someone living in a place where so many things are obviously terrible... both on a personal level and in the world as a whole?

My reasons for this perspective are numerous. Far too many to write in only 2500 words. But basically...

The real world is an extremely depressing place for any person that cares at all about anything outside of themselves.

Eg. If you care about animals... the reality is many beautiful species are already lost forever, many others are so close to the verge of extinction that even if everyone worldwide decided to do everything they could to save them... they would still be lost. At home there are people that still buy people animals as christmas gifts, refuse to desex their pets, the massive amount of pets put down in pounds annually. There is backyard animal cruelty, the dog racing industry using live bait, shooting race horses with legs, women's hormonal treatments for menapause, the meat industry, birds choking on our plastic half a world away, overfishing. The list goes on and on.

It is reality and it is depressing. Care about animals and feeling "depressed" about it IS correct. And that is one tiny subject in a plethora of subjects.

3 billion people in starving poverty, the water wars, religious fanatics, corrupt governments, womens rights violations, slavery, wars, child rape, etc etc

It's the people that are not depressed that worry me.

[Dniaiu]

Hi Unbeliever, Thomas Covenant, and all the other contributors to this discussion.

I'm reacting to the title, as I've just read two things along that line:

Page 166 of "A Short History Of Stupid" discusses the changing perceptions of mental illness over time, and lists times and people who regarded it as valuable and positive.

For example Aristotle notes that "all men who have attained excellence in philosophy, in poetry, in art and in politics, even Socrates and Plato, had a melancholic habitus; indeed some even suffered from melancholic disease."

The other was a news report which said that there was increasing evidence that depression was an evolutionary adaptation to support deep thinking about complex scenarios. I can't recall where I read that, or I'd include a reference.

[Speak Your Truth]

Hi Dniaiu and all

I googled “increasing evidence that depression was an evolutionary adaptation to support deep thinking about complex scenarios” and various references came up.

The first one - ncbi nlm nih gov pmc articles PMC2734449 - may be the one you were referring to

I tried once before to put a web site on the forum and they wouldn’t let me so if you get this you will have to work out the dots and / yourselves

[Unbeliever]

A significant part of the ideological "civilisation" is the widely-held Western assumption that to be a good citizen, a success, someone worthy of emulation, you need to be confident, resilient, happy and optimistic. By positioning this set of character traits as the ideal, we've cast the millions of people who don't fit that mindset into the turbulence of not belonging, not fitting in and feeling "abnormal". Of course it would be un-PC to outrightly call people that, so therefore those that don't fit into those ideals are referred to as the much friendlier term "ill"... (and of course they just happen to have the "cure" for sale).

But the problem with naming such a "widespread and amorphous" condition as depression a "mental disorder" is that once someone has been "diagnosed", it often becomes their identity and takes on a life of its own, even when an individual is reacting quite naturally to stress, financial problems, loss of a loved one, or just simple confusion about a complex world etc etc. On an individual level, if those problems and stresses are ongoing, daily and continuous, then rationally any "depressive" feelings resulting from those things will also be ongoing, daily and continuous. That would not be an "illness" as much as a person who is in full understanding of their current daily circumstances.

On a larger level, it is no coincidence that rarely have any experts in the mental health system ever sought the cause of neurosis or mental disorders in the economic and political systems within which we live.
Instead the underlying premise has always been that the depressed or neurotic individual is by definition "dysfunctional" and the industrialist/consumer system is "normal"... in other words that mental "illnesses" are essentially defined by the inability of those individuals to function "normally" and contribute to the ongoing maintenance of those systems. Regardless of whether the "happiness" they feel is a result of self delusion and not based in any kind of reality whatsoever. Those people are not regarded as "ill" but "healthy" citizens.

[Unbeliever]

The goal has always been therefore to use any methods possible to hopefully take these dysfunctional individuals and (re)enable them to become functioning contributors to the maintainance of these "civilised" systems... even when the standardised acceptance of those systems is insane and/or depressing in of itself to any rational thinking human being. Of course any individual who dares to think this way is considered to be "ill" and in need of therapy and/or medicinial intervention.

In a nutshell, "fixing individuals" (even if it fails) has become an extremely profitable industry... however fixing a sick civilisation is not.

Most psychiatrists and psychologists refuse to even consider the idea that society as a whole may be lacking in sanity. They hold that the problem of mental health in a society is only that of the number of ‘unadjusted’ individuals, and not of a possible unadjustment of the culture itself. For many people such as myself THIS is just one of many things that makes me not only feel extremely depressed, it makes me want to scream... scream until my lungs burst.

These concepts were the point of my initial post. Am I wrong to feel depressed about things like this? And if I am... therefore is it "right" to medicate myself to the point that these genuine relentlessly ongoing and ever increasing concerns are lost into a "fog of afterthought" or even "no thought at all"? This is the cost (and sacrifice) for my happiness? Self "obliviation"?

It seems like a high price.

[Peppermintbach]

Welcome back, Unbeliever 🙂

I’m very happy to see your avatar light up the screen again!

Pepper

[Just Sara]

Hi and welcome back UB; (and those reading/contributing)

It's always great to read your posts and again you've not disappointed.

I get where you're coming from. I guess we all have questioned the 'system', but isn't that where our 'helplessness' lives? Feeling like an ant is seen as being small and insignificant, but ants are 'all' useful and important in their system of survival.

As for mental health within our system, it's common knowledge that sociopaths and psychopaths are at the top of the food chain so to speak. These megalomaniacs (1%ers and their protege's) spread their narcissistic ways by conning and hiring 'yes' men; this evolves into their personal 'game' instead of focusing on community values for instance. US President what's-his-name has been bankrupt twice, but did anyone give a shit when they voted?

'Money is the root of all evil' This saying has become a 'truth' IMO. Primal communities were about need and survival. Each person had a 'place' within that community based on skills and abilities. It worked because there was no monetary system as a temptation to promote any lack of self esteem or image.

'Trading' works far better but we don't hear pollies sprouting anything remotely similar because there's no money in it. The taxation dept would have a fit if they thought people were trading in goods/services instead of cash/credit.

Personally, I think we'd have to go back 5000 yrs (or more) to undo the damage. I know you admire ancient philosophers, but they have accountability too when it comes to modern culture. They pushed the 'why?' boundary to its limits with their analytics; they made careers out of 'reasons'.

I mean, why 'do' when you can 'think' right? I think, therefore I am. Yes, I exist. That's what I was doing for 4 yrs after my breakdown. I kept saying; "There's got to be more to life than this, surely!"

Sigh.. you're right UB, it's complex. But is being pissed off with the system going to save your sanity? Why 'think', when you can 'do'?

Cheers;

Sez

[Unbeliever]

Verona,
It is most likely my fault that the thread stopped being active. I re-developed insomnia for many MANY months again (to be honest I'm still feeling the effects of it). I felt (feel) that my mental acuity was not sufficent enough to contribute properly to the thread... and when talking about complex issues I find that it is too easy for words to be misinterpreted even when you are functioning at 100%. I am glad that you found it "inspiring" though, I was hoping someone would.

It is mind-boggling to me how or why "depression" suddenly got universially locked into a singular definition... especially when if you look into human history that this one "black and white" perspective interpretation is an extremely recent phenomenon. I can only assume that someone had an extremely effective advertising campaign a few decades back apparently... and "generational amnesia" did the rest.

Depression had been theorised and interpreted and philosophised for thousands of years, but only in the last 30 years or so has a generation had the audacity (or simplemindedness?) to believe they have nailed the definition and swallowed that interpretation whole.

"Disatisfaction" is exactly right. I hear you completely. I always have and still now question whether "depression" is my dominant feeling at all and if I rightfully fit into the "depressed generalisation" catagory and therefore is just being on this site making me some kind of fraud.

I do feel sadness far more often than happiness and that has been my truth for a very long time now (which certainly fits into the current definition of depression). However, other words fit the things I feel significantly stronger than just simply "sadness". Words like... disappointment, frustation, anger, predictability, disconnection, unrelatability and of course "disatisfaction", all of which of course obviously do not inspire "happy" feelings.

But is my depression the cause of those other stronger feelings? Or do those stronger feelings result in sadness? Since I definitely felt the others first and felt the sadness after... the answer (at least to me) seems obvious.

[Unbeliever]

And then of course the even more important question... if I use techniques and meds that are designed to target my "depression", does that solve the things in my life that inspire those other stronger feelings? Or simply numb (fog) my ability to notice the things that concern me greatly. Which if the former is the case... wont that make me become part of the very problem that upsets me so much? The self-centered eople who are purposely ignorant and oblivious to everything happening around them... which in my opinion is the driving force behind the millions of people who allowed things to get this bad in the first place.

Depression if anything for me is more of a resultant afterthought than the driving mechanism and out of all the things that concern me the most, my "depression" is significantly low on the list.

Don't close your door on the world though Verona. Too many people have done that which isn't helping anyone, including yourself.

[Unbeliever]

Peppermintbach,
Yep, I did read your post (yesterday). I am pretty much the same as before, little in the world ever changes... therefore little inside me seems to ever change. It is just the fact of my existance I guess.

bigstar,
The "observable changes" can be via a number of different reasons... most of them nothing to do with depression and using these as definers has resulted in a ridiculous number of misdiagnosis(es).

Yes, MRI machines do show differences between "functional" (cough, cough) brains and "depressed" brains.... also studying brains, pregnant womans brains, horny brains, teenage brains, threatened brains, car driving brains (I assume), video game playing brains, "not recieved enough likes on your last thread post" brains and "watching the last episodes of your favorite tv series" brains... of course there are differences. There should be or our brains would have serious problems". These scans don't really "prove" anything.

I have a dislike of the "chicken and the egg" question. Obviously, an animal similar to but with enough differences that by modern human definitions we wouldn't classify as a "chicken" laid the first egg. A "chickenlike" animal laid the first chicken egg. However, that a brain suddenly spontaneous changed its daily chemical release to result in "depression" without any reason or outside influences seems extremely unlikely.

I also don't believe that "life is made up inexorable suffering". It certainly has things within it that cannot lead to happiness, but thankfully I am positive that life is "made up" of far more interesting and complex things than that. And any god that sets the universe up on purpose to be "unbearable" without its help... has got some serious issues to resolve in itself (I have some decent therapists I can recommend).

Speak Your Truth,
Loneliness is an interesting thing. I believe that the most loneliness I have ever felt was the time in my life when I was surrounded by the most people. As Francis Bacon once said...
"A crowd is not company...
"...and faces are but a gallery of pictures."

Certainly don't feel threatened, I have spent (wasted) a large amount of time on this subject. There is a large range of intelligence and "articulation" although useful is a overall quite a minor one. Believe me, in many other ways I am likely the stupidest person you have ever met.

Dniaiu,
Haha "Thomas Covenant"... very good. 🙂

[Unbeliever]

Just Sara,

I was bringing up the "System" more as an example of how depression has recently been repackaged into an all-encompassing "one fits all" catagory for anyone not contributing to the civilisation at "maximum efficiency" for the benefit of those whose best interests are to maintain the status-quo.

I didn't mean the focus to be on things in the world that upset me, but on how it bothers me how that system has created this standardised catagorisation and treatment of anyone "abnormal" (not contributing to profit gain good enough) and yet also managed to use that to create a profit industry out of widening the definition of people who are "ill". And very few people seem to have noticed.

Now they sell pills for "shyness" and fund research companies millions of dollars to hunt for the "gene" for it (that's right, one day your great grandchildren can be born without having to feel shy). Then there are thousands of dollar courses for things like "confidence" or "overcleanliness"... the list goes on and on.

I'm not saying that there are not people who are cripplingly effected by these things when they are extreme and those people definitely need help. But this "widening the catagory" definition changing to obviously expand their targeted demographics by convincing people that something that is just a personality characteristic is actually an "illness" that needs to be remedied... is to me disgusting.

And if anyone thinks that this methodology has not been massively applied to the mental health industry... particularly in the area of depression in the last few decades, then they are not paying attention. Depression was an easy target, because 99.99999999999999999% of people experience sadness in their lives, they know what it is... while significantly fewer people will experience a period of "obsessive cleanliness".

And expanding definition in order to exploit people to convince them that they are sick for profit, not only is abhorrent in itself... but minimises people who genuinely suffer from the true extremes of those conditions.

And I believe that I am justified to be angry and upset (and yes even "sad") about this.