Narcissist destroying family, can we help, protection order

[Always_learning]

First post.

I have a brother who I have recently come to believe has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. No I am not a professional, and ideally would like to get a professional diagnosis, but I have studied and 98% sure and he ticks the boxes.

He is the youngest in the family (by 8 years) and by the time he was a teenager his older brother and sister had married and left home and were busy raising our own families. So we never really saw his behaviours until recently.

We always knew that he had issues but thought he was just "Being himself - weird". The fact that he only wanted to talk about himself and demean others meant that at family get togethers, we normally didn't spend much time near him.

Its only been in the last year that I have really seen the escalating negative behaviours, and become a focus of his condition myself.

He has always liked to "big note" himself, tell stories about how good he was, and at the same time put others down.

He had a very difficult upbringing, it's relevant how he got here but not related to what we are trying to do.

Our elderly parents are now in permanent aged care, and for the year prior to that I was acting as a carer for them, which is when I came into a lot more regular contact with my brother. I also installed cameras in the house (With mums and dads approval) to monitor care givers visits and also ensure they were safe (Mum has Alzhiemers and Dad was having falls). The videos showed the verbal lies and character attacks by my brother against myself were ongoing and many.

Current situation is that following a face to face Death threat and verbal aggression, my sister and myself have taken out a protection order. The death threat was during a Narcissist rage that started when I told him "I'm not going to help you as much anymore". This was following one of his "Being difficult" episodes. It was all captured on cameras. He now tells people that he had to run away and I threatened him and he was scarred. Shame that the videos actually show what really happened. When he remembered the videos it changed to "Didn't really mean it".

His Daughters (both adults) cant handle it any more, His latest girlfriend also had abuse and has protection order. He has alienated all his immediate family. And then moved to "Dumping" on mum and dad at the aged care home. Nurses commented that dad was in tears following visits.

But we still want to help. Dad wants a happy family. I said I'd try getting Mediation or counselling for us ?

[Always_learning]

I have spoken to "Legal Aid" as part of protection order. They can't help.

I tried "Relationships Australia" they only handle marital separating and children.

Just not sure were to go, but I know we need a professional that knows how to get under the lies and actually see the truth. And also to get a proper assessment.

We can only try to get help to mend things for everyone, otherwise I think we will need to go "No Contact".

[Quercus]

Hello Always Learning and thank you for confiding in us here.

There are quite a few threads on the forums that describe the difficulty coping with narcissistic personalities. It might interest you to search for posts by a member called White Knight (Tony). Your situation reminds me of some of the posts I have read by Tony.

It certainly sounds like you are in a hard position because your Dad wants you to keep trying to reconcile. But what about you? Do you want to?

I can understand wanting to try your best to make your father happy but sometimes we need to do what is right for ourselves and put our own needs first.

It sounds like you've had some horrible experiences with your brother and have been the one responsible for caring for your parents when he upsets them too. Have you had much support for yourself through all this? Even if your brother doesn't wish to come to mediation with you, it might help to see a professional simply to allow yourself somewhere to talk.

I've learnt from dramas with my family that the only person you can control is yourself. Trying to diagnose your brother isn't helpful to you if he doesn't want to change.

I know from my own experiences that it hurts to remove all contact (especially when your parents want you to reconcile). But I had given so many chances and forgiveness before and I had hit a limit. You wrote about threats and aggression and it sounds completely reasonable after that to feel unable to be in contact. Perhaps after some time your brother will see his behaviour is not ok.

Whatever happens I hope you and your family feel safer.

Nat

I wish I had advice to give

[geoff]

Hello Always learning, and welcome to the forums.

People like your brother want to be in control and also want those involved to feel low, that's so they can feed off it that's their way of using it as their coping mechanism and gives them the strength they need.

It's not that they're better than everyone, they actually feel so insecure and try much harder to believe they are more dominant.

This is for bullies to deal with a lot of their own problems, which they will never admit to, but take it out on other people.

A question I would like to ask is who is Power of Attorney for your parents?

Best wishes.

Geoff.

[Always_learning]

Thanks Quercus. I’ll check out your suggestion.

I’m aware of looking after myself, but I’m also aware that there is an ongoing need to had contact with my brother. Mum and dads care, and eventually their passing. He is living in one of their houses, rent free, pays nothing, which is costing a lot, and with care care costs, it’s not great. Yes I could hand it over to someone else however that also has some issues.

My sister and myself have now had a meeting with a Counsellor. Step 1 is for her to meet and help dad handle what’s happening. Step 2 to to see if my brothers daughters are willing to meet with her. They are the next most in need. Im now aware that they have had years of damage, which would need to be addressed. They are both very stressed with any contact with their father.

Next is to get a professional assessment of his condition, that family are informed about. Then everyone has some idea what they are dealing with and what to expect. My brother can do a wonderful job of manipulating others to believe what he says, he is extremely good at that.

the professional assessment is the hard part as he has to do it. He’s told his daughter he wants it, but I expect he will pull out if he thinks I am involved. Or probably pull out anyhow, unless we can paint a picture that shows him to be better than everyone else.

[Always_learning]

Thanks Geoff, yes that’s what he does.

He seems to display all the standard NPD behaviours.

Mum and dad made my sister and myself POA. They at that time didn’t want my brother to be in control of anything because of his issues, and also drinking and gambling issues.

But we aren’t sure how to handle the POA and dad still wants to see our brother, as he wants a “happy family”.

Dad doesn’t have that long to be with us, his health has been declining, so I really don’t want his final days to be marred by not having a happy family at the end of his life.

[Quercus]

Hello again Always Learning,

Thank you for coming back and letting us know how you're doing. It sounds like between yourselves and the counselor you and your sister have a good plan. I like how it has been broken down into small steps. Sounds less overwhelming.

I'm sorry to hear that your Dad is so unwell. Even if your brother isn't ready right now to do what is needed to mend relationships you've shown your Dad that you're all willing to try. Even if he doesn't get to see reconciliation in his lifetime it might be reassuring to him just to see that you all are trying.

I hope it's ok if I share an experience with you...

As my Grandparents' got older I saw my Mum trying to protect her parents from hurtful things her siblings did. They were like your Dad just wanting peace in our family. And Mum just wanted them to be happy so she ran herself ragged trying to cover up for their thoughtlessness, to get them to visit etc.

Towards the end of their lives it hurt so badly to see Mum realise she couldn't change her sibling's behaviour. They didn't want to change. Eventually she realised my Grandparents already knew and loved their kids faults and all.

They wanted peace because they knew when they passed the siblings would no longer have them to turn to. They were trying to make sure their kids would always be supported and be able to turn to their family. It seemed an odd concept to me until I had kids of my own.

My point is... I have no doubt your Dad appreciates what you're doing regardless of whether it works or not because you're willing to keep trying. Have you thought about or spoken to your Dad about what upsets him most about the conflict in your family?

I'm glad to hear you're caring for yourself too and have support from your sister. Having POA is very stressful. Mum went down the path of hiring a lawyer to help her when they passed away. I'm thankful she did because the lawyer was a godsend when the siblings got nasty. You said Legal Aid couldn't help. May I ask what you hoped they could do in your situation?

I'm sorry I don't have much advice. But I'm happy to listen.

Nat

[Always_learning]

Thanks Nat. I was trying to get help with mediation counselling, and with the protection order.

Unfortunately my brother has resisted finalising the protection order again, and forced it to go to court for a proper hearing. Apparently he doesn’t have to say why he won’t let the order be finalised, just that he doesn’t agree with it. Guess he wants to still be able to come up to me, and doesn’t want to have to be peaceful and of good will.

He has now organised his own counsellor, even though I informed him that dad had one and they were happy to get involved in the family resolution side as well. Meeting with him and his counsellor, so I see where that goes.

I did hit a point last week when it started to get too much, and I thought why am I even trying to do this. His daughters have rejected the offer to get involved, and/or get counselling themselves. I think they have seen it all before.

Wereas I would normally do a little planning for meetings like this, this time I’m doing nothing, (feel it’s not worth the effort) and the stress outweighs the potential benefit. I’ll keep an open mind and listen, and restate what I’ve wanted from the beginning.

[Quercus]

Hello again Always Learning,

From what you write, it does sound like it will be difficult to make any form of peace with your brother. I can see why his kids would choose not to try.

It seems petty and even controlling to me that he insists on choosing the counselor although your Dad (who is unwell and should be the most important influence in my view) has one he feels safe with. But I suppose at least he agreed.

When you wrote about not trying I must admit I agreed with you. I don't think I would either but part of me suspects I'd have given up long ago so I respect your effort.

It is very kind of you to be willing to have an open mind after all the stress. It must be reassuring to your Dad to see.

Have you thought much about your own safety and care? Obviously youre trying to support your Dad as you said he doesn't have long on this earth. But it's clear he is very important to you and yet everyone looks to you to be the organiser and to keep your brother in line. Who will you lean on when you need to grieve? Is there a professional you see to offload some of your own worries?

Fingers crossed your brother surprises everyone by being civil when you see the counselor. If you want to share how you go I'm happy to listen.

Nat