Theories on suicidal thoughts

[white knight]

Hi

One of my favourite psychologists is Jordan Peterson. He has hundreds of videos on Youtube. He mentions in one lecture that his belief is that a common reason for suicidal thoughts is that the person cannot tolerate the complexities of their lives. For us humans have hundreds of tasks every day and new ones coming along not to mention the stresses of financial struggles, bullying, separation from family and friends and possible drug abuse. And those can be the tip of the iceberg. 

Perhaps to help ourselves we should lower that complexity by reverting to a pre adult simplicity. Reduce  stress numbers by removing them. Toxic friends or family? remove them. Consolidate debts, draw up a financial plan so you have a better outlook in 12 months. And so on. Shape a +ve pathway.

I've long time been an advocate for replacing negative thinking for positive outlooks and plans. Reading posts here of how people are treated poorly at school (bullying) or their own negative thinking so inground they know no other way of thinking. Please allow me to guide you- there is no better transformation to a better life than realising your thinking is self destructive and to move towards a positive outlook on everything- everything.

You hurt your leg and you spend weeks in a wheelchair - think! you have arms and hands to write, to touch a loved ones face to show care... how lucky

You fail a topic at school, give yourself time to adjust to it then think! how lucky you can get education. Drop that subject, add another, we all have limits so accept it that it isnt a topic for you. Be realistic

You have an upset at home, go for a walk, focus on life, on the bees collecting nectar, the old lady carrying shopping inside (offer to help as helping others elevates your worth), feel the breeze

Climb a hill once a month. Sit in silence and watch the sun set. It will take 2 hours start to finish. Dont move. When I did this a small bird landed on my shoulder- how special is that? Appreciate the wonder of a sunset.

Occasionally remove yourself from your obsessions like study, mobile phones, games and "fun". Add to your life the addictiveness of life itself. It's right at your doorstep if you look.

Love yourself, your uniqueness.. there is no other like you.

So, are you hoping for a small change to your life? I wouldn't be happy unless it totally transformed your life.

https://wordpaint.com/prem/en/when_sunset.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X30sWycWz4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgh08mZ355Q

TonyWK

[mmMekitty]

Hi TonyWK

Interesting perspectives, with some practical suggestions for small changes which can lead to better, healthier lives. I'm happy with making small changes - it's the numerous small changes (so small I don't know what they all were), which have brought me to be here & now, where I am.

I must say, my pre-adolescent years were pretty comples, & only became more so when I reached 12.5 years old. But I'm not convinced it was the complexity that was the greatest problem. I think it was that I had no agency, no say in what happened to me or in my life - where I went, who I was with, what I did, including school subjects, & how I was regarded... that powerlessness was what caused the most harm. It was my powerlessness which made it possible for harm to come to me, to be done to me, & which kept me silent.

I think, for young people, there is far too much pressure placed on their young shoulders, too many expectations, too little childhood. The easy access to the wider, pretty much un-moderated social media is a huge problem. As worldly wise as kids seem to be about social media, they are not psychologically mature enough to understand how they can be manipulated by these sites & some people who get on there, with intentions to cause harm, whether to bully or to exploit. &, unlike my childhood, it's 24/7. & exactly like gambling is addictive, so are the social media sites & games. I was astonished to realise how quickly i, as an adult, not even wanting the social aspect of many of the games, how I was becoming addicted - just to finish the next round, a goal, the next level ... up all night, neglecting my personal needs ... & like gambling, I wanted the good feeling of being a winner.

They also were a great excape, something I could 'zone out' for hours, not thinking or feeling the things I wanted to avoid thinking & feeling. Was brilliant for that.

But games didn't solve the problems.

It was only through dealing with the problems that I began to feel my life was actually not so bad... & getting better. I don't expect it will ever be pure bliss & without problems to solve. Nothing is more certain than change.

I wish everyone the best in their journey.

Hugzies

mmMekitty

[snazzypretzel5]

These are nice words and great if they can be put into action. Sadly some people are unable to get enough distance from overwhelming feelings to be able to think of the blessing or good thing. I have experienced that myself, the inability to stop negative feeling/talk. I do believe to try to challenge our thoughts and not always believe what our brain is telling us, especially when it come to negative and dark thoughts, and maybe that is the only thing we can do. Hopefully if we cannot do it alone, we have someone who can help us to interrupt the negative things our brains tell us.

I have seen a psychiatrist who specialises in depression and neurodivergencies suggest we start the day with a positive thought for the day and that can help to stave off negative thought patterns.

So in a way I agree with your premise of thinking on the good side of life. I hope that there are many of us who have that support and opportunity to challenge our negative thoughts, stay our hand, take a breath, make a phone call.

[therising]

Hi Tony

I'm a great fan of Jordan Peterson, based on him being a bit of everything. He's part psychologist, part wonderer (when it comes to wondering about human nature), part philosopher, part fearless speaker when it comes to speaking some of the truths that can trigger a lot of people and he's so much more.

Simplicity is definitely skillful. At times it feels impossible to do, especially if we haven't been shown how to do it in the toughest of times and even in the most basic of ways. I tend to agree with Peterson in some ways when considering the idea that comes to mind at times and that is 'I just don't know how to do life anymore. It just feels too hard'. Would definitely be much easier if surrounded by people who'd say 'Don't stress, I'll simplify by managing some of these things in your life. You relax and just focus on those things' or 'I'll simply guide you through what's depressing or anxiety inducing so you never lose your way. I'll simply lead you, one foot after the other'. Stuff like that.

I can see a huge call for life coaches in the future. I'm talking about affordable ones, as opposed to the kind that cost an arm and a leg. 'This is how to do life under these/those circumstances'. In some ways the world of psychology is filled with life coaches, coaching people on how to deal with self limiting beliefs, coaching on how to better understand and manage trauma, coaching people on how to manage feelings, how to breathe more effectively, how to make better sense of how mind and body work together and how they can work against each other at times' etc etc. Coach, counselor or guide, no matter what form they take, their job is to simplify and lead us to greater self understanding and function.

There is an art/skill to meditating on bees, on the nature of people, on the feel of the breeze, watching the sun set and even meditating on life's gifts (the wink the universe gives us when it delivers a bird or butterfly to us in some beautiful way). Our skill level is seriously tested when there is the call to meditate/fully focus on such things when what challenges us the most threatens to steal all our focus. Masters only become true masters when put to the ultimate test in the most challenging of ways.

[white knight]

Hi the rising

So this simplifying our lives can have many dimensions. To assist those with suicidal thoughts (I've had them regularly since 21yo), to use myself as an example, these are the areas I've dropped off being interested in. No further than that, the areas I've deliberately allowed to fall away to help me cope with the things that matter-

• Politics - I find trust a big issue here, both sides of the spectrum break promises are often poor financial managers and lack vision for things like defence, homelessness and indigenous matters
• Gossip - my family fed their lives with gossip. Having moved away at 17yo to join the RAAF I soon learned that it was lacking honour and trust. It is usually non productive even destructive so I fight it causing stress
• Beauocracy - I admit to now passing on all phone calls to banks, Telcoes etc to my wife.
• Narcissism - psychological cruelty angers me so much I fight it to the end of the earth. Hence losing half my family but I have zero compromise
• Pointless world records - someone doing a rubics cube at 5000ft while skydiving or eating 30 pies in under 10 minutes, might be my age now but surely being more productive and humble is the better course

But along the way I've taken more interest in things that I find fascinating-

• Documentaries
• Space and the JWTS and Hubble discoveries
• Peoples feelings and safety
• Camping

Note that none of the new interests involve stress whereas the first group can do so.

Another reason I like Peterson, he teaches young adults to be adults.

TonyWK

[therising]

Hi Tony

I think if we're sensitive enough we'll be able to sense or feel all the simple ways that work or don't work. To simply read the paper or watch the news doesn't work because it feels too depressing and stressful at times. To simply step foot into nature works. It feels like exactly the right thing at times. To simply sit and watch tv all day every day doesn't work, it doesn't feel good in the way of producing energy and a sense of achievement. To simply sit and watch the stars at night works because there is a beauty in that which can trigger a sense of awe, wonder and philosophy (things that can be felt at an emotional level). While to simply breathe may not be enough in times of stress, to simply breathe well can make some difference.

I think one of the greatest triggers for a HSP involves feeling all the systems that are not designed to be easy or simple. To feel the complex angering systems, the depressing ones, the questionable ones, the stressful ones and every other one can be highly triggering. My heart often goes out to the current younger generations. While being told 'You're too sensitive', what we should perhaps be asking them is 'What are you sensing?'. I imagine the overall answer may be 'We are sensing how stressful, angering, upsetting, depressing and far from easy the world can be'. While past generations have accepted the mantra 'Life is not meant to be easy', sensitive people ask a more than reasonable question, 'Why does or should it have to be this hard?'. Good question. 

[white knight]

'Why does or should it have to be this hard?'. Good question.

If was cast our imagination back 150 years... in the scheme of things, human development it isnt long at all and prior to 150 years ago things were so simple, certainly more difficult in all ways but simple. Bartering with neighbours to swap corm with peas and our neighbourhoods were essentially only a few kilometres in diameter as was work. We'd don our only good set of clothes for going out or church and meet up with others. Trains had begun to connect the cities and that must have been incredible to watch.

So all those things you listed as being basic non stressful activities were there. The stresses them days, not knowing where the next meal will come from, poor housing, illnesses more unpredictable etc would have been a struggle, I wonder if those stresses were worse than now? I wonder if the suicide rate was worse?

From the www since 1910 male suicides have nearly halved and was only worse during WW2, females have stayed the same. IMO that proves life was more difficult in the much older times where the basics were worse. We are now flooded with options but the complexities of modern life as mentioned earlier by Peterson has placed enormous pressure on our human minds. I think its akin to how Australias indigenous community has been expected to catch up to white mans development and many simply cant adapt from their level of development (in some ways they were extremely developed) within a few generations. Our white man brain has also played catch up and some can, some cant. Those that cant need more of what you mention, those simple non stressful actions to find purity of mind where we are not actually thinking and less of the recordings of "your call is important to us please hold..."

TonyWK

[therising]

Hi Tony

I love philosophical discussions which involve and invite opinion, wonder, perception and more. I love how such discussions open the mind. To be a philosopher on our own can feel torturous at times ('Why am I here? What is my purpose? What is the point of life?'), yet to share philosophical questions with others becomes about sharing the greater or deeper questions. They can feel far less depressing when they are shared through a sense of wonder.

Socrates declared 'Man, know thyself'. While being one of the simplest quotes of all time, some suggest it points to one simple goal (with all its complexities), greater self understanding. It's suggested we are born to come to know our self. If we throw the challenge out to the whole human race, it becomes 'Mankind, know thyself as a species'. To know that we as a species thrives on simplicity, service to each other, fair trade, kindness, compassion and inspiration is good to know. To know that we thrive on a constructive sense of wonder, a connection to nature and adventure is also good to know. To know that we can be deeply feeling creatures and there is nothing wrong with that is definitely a handy thing to know. Gradually waking up to what we don't yet know can be a slow and challenging process. The fascinating thing is we are always waking up to something, individually and collectively. The challenge remains, 'Man, know thyself'.

Tony, I smile when I think of the most sensitive of people 'coming to their senses' so much faster than others. This doesn't make sensitive people better than others, just more tapped in. Coming to or into our senses can be about feeling what's right and what's not, seeing a future that relates to what works and what doesn't and hearing inspiration that comes to mind without thinking, such as when something says to us 'Give that person a smile' when we pass them in the street. The challenge may involve not thinking our way out of giving them that smile. How far simpler would life become if we had really good leaders who could lead us to a 'common sense' (a sixth sense), where we could suddenly begin to feel in all the right ways, see in all the right ways and hear in all the right ways? In the meantime, many are left struggling while feeling, seeing and hearing everything that's depressing and anxiety inducing or feeling, seeing and hearing no way forward. Those so sensitive (those able to sense so easily) can be left in a painful limbo, being judged harshly as 'weak', while in the process of fully coming into their senses. The thing is...such people are far more tapped in than the insensitive folk who declare them as weak.

[white knight]

The Rising

Re: " The thing is...such people are far more tapped in than the insensitive folk who declare them as weak". Facebook in particular (I'm a very regular user) highlights that men have a long way to go in their misdirected masculinity. As a man that has ventured to work in quasi law enforcement and worked with many over 40+ years, I find it intolerable some attitudes that men possess. 

A fine example of like minded people was a inmate in the jail I worked when 21-24yo. I was beginning to write poetry which truly was a direct reflection of my dysthymia/bipolar/depression unmedicated then. Very emotional. I struck up a conversation with a fellow that was there due to fraud as opposed to any violent crime. We got on really well. Then my brother passed away using his own methods and when I returned to work I was certainly not going to share my grief with prison officers, no, not the most comforting individuals them days. I did however get a chance to talk to this inmate and share my pain. His only comment " Maybe this job isnt for you"?

Several weeks went by and I had another inmate pass away on my watch. I knew that night I was to resign that week. I spent the next 15 years sometimes thinking about my responsibility that night to that fellow, guilt personified until I wrote the following and immediately once written, I was released from all burden.

GREAT ESCAPE

I locked the cell door

To keep the crim inside

Didn’t really care much

About why his eyes so wide

He tapped on the trap door

To test I be a phony

Pity I didn’t have a chat

To sense that he be lonely

Then in the early hours

I felt there was dome fuss

For when I spy into his cell

He be no longer with us

I locked that cell door

To keep inside that crim

His only chance to escape

              -when I turned my back on him…

TonyWK

Then my father passed and the similar thing happened. A delayed grief of 12 months or so until I wrote this-

TO KISS HIS TEMPLE

There were some things I knew as taboo

to express my love but to question who?

to touch the pale face of my dad back then

when touching taboo...when "men were men"

For boys were male and "you cant do that"

jealous of my sister and that is that

that man couldnt hug his son for how he was seen

nowadays if you hugged your son- well, you'd be relieved.

And so my dad the salt of the land

wouldnt touch me even by hand

he knew he loved me and I him

with a wink of an eye from under his brim

Then that day we all regret came along

where watery eyes was met by song

and there he lie with an eerie smile

I be alone with him for just a while.

As I stroked his forehead cool to touch

I raised my head automatically as such

to kiss his temple of which I dare

I knew his mind was well aware.

Of all the kisses I missed

they gathered together in just one kiss

finally as his spirit rose and went

he left his love and hugs were spent

I never craved again heart be blessed

that tradition of males their love expressed

a kiss on his forehead way back then

ended an era when "men were men"....

So, the poetry journey is getting to know myself - Socrates was right. So that sense of wonder of which you speak stuck a cord. Have you had anything similar happen to you?

TonyWK

[therising]

Hi Tony

Alpha males and alpha females in their purest form definitely challenge me in a lot of ways. I enjoy feeling gentleness and lightness to people. There's a sense of peace that comes with that. Alphas tend to have quite a 'heavy' and overwhelming feel to them a lot of the time.

With poetry, I believe it can be where the ego and soul can meet to discuss and find the deeper meaning in life. I used to write a lot of poetry. Not sure what happened there. Was going through years of papers in a major clean out last week and came upon some of my poetry from over the years. I felt how beautifully my soul led me to express myself. Tony, while you've been guided to express yourself in words, especially in such overwhelming painful and tormenting times, 'Great Escape' and 'To Kiss His Temple' both moved me deeply. Such incredibly confronting times in your life with such enormous emotional charges. I can feel elements of those charges within your words.

I've found a sense of wonder to be a life saver for me on many occasions. I believe a sense of wonder is the key to opening the mind. Without that key, the mind remains closed and fixed around so much of what doesn't serve us (like a lot of false and self destructive beliefs). Open the mind and such things are free to escape. Wonder once blew my mind right open. At the end of 15 or so years in long term depression, I was led to wonder 'If I am not my anger, my sadness, my frustration, my sense of hopeless, my controlling ways and all that stuff then who am I? If all those things belong to that creature known as 'Depression' then who am I without depression and its tormenting ways? If I am so much more than the name I was labeled with at birth, the age in which time measures, the gender that offers some physical abilities (such as with giving birth), the collection of beliefs placed in my head by others over the years, who am I beyond all that'. The short answer, 'I have absolutely no idea who I am'. That was 18 years ago, when I began finding out who I truly am. A sense of wonder continues to lead me.