GUILT the tormentor

[white knight]

Guilt in my opinion originates from a factor in our childhood. I dont think its hereditary but if our homelife includes generations of narcissistic behaviour then it could feel like its passed down.

I know its not passed down because although I am a child of a narcissistic mother (and a nurturing one) I stopped the flow on to my children by refusing the trend of becoming a controlling parent. If hereditary I couldnt have succeeded. So why did I end up suffering guilty intrusive thoughts?

As my father worked 14 hour days 6 days a week, our mother was our prime parent. She didnt work. Outsiders never knew. Its what went on behind closed doors that scarred us forever.

As a young child, there is a huge difference between control and guidance. As teenagers there is a gap between a parent with recommendations and domination. As we arrive in our 20's we cant deal with our bossy parent any longer and fight back against what is by now manipulation and a gang mentality...even emotional blackmail.

The narcissistic parent is clever. They'll use any means at their disposal to control. In my case turning our loving father and relatives against us. They can be possessive of your friends and even try to coerce you to choose a partner preferring one that can be "moulded" into their deputy...more control.

If you've read this far you might also be a victim. What can you do?

Im 61yo. Right up till 54yo I tried everything but nothing worked. My sister and I broke off all contact, put "return to sender" on letters from our mother and as she had ruined my first wedding in 1985, got a court order so she couldnt ruin my second wedding (her threat)

It is highly unlikely a relationship with a narcissist of little contact will work as the control they lust for isnt with them, its with you. How dare you control your own life!

So guilt forms in ways like being told- they are never wrong, you are at fault, you make poor choices, if you do that I'll do this, if you do that I'll ruin your life, etc

Add to that some anxiety if the narcissistic parent is a "yeller". The expectations are too great as to your immature capacity to "be a good boy". You are their robot.

I attended a psychologist. I'll never forget his words at the last session "do you think you need her permission to live without fear?"

That was the light that sparked me realising her hold was a firm grip.

Demand to yourself the basic right to mental freedom. Walk away, get help to repair the guilt wound ..into a scar.

Tony WK

[Guest_1584]

What can you do with guilt when there's nothing you can do or no opportunity to undo or apologize.

l'm not sure if it was this thread or another but someone mentioned we should give ourselves jail time and when it's done , release the guilt.

Trouble is , l wish it was as black and white , if only. l'll probably carry some of mine for life unless if l don't figure out how to get rid of it.Not sure if others can flick a switch when their time is done but unfortunately l don't seem to be able to do that.

rx

[white knight]

A very good question Randomx

How do we rid ourselves from guilt when we cant undo the cause?

It would be very different if the people involved in the causing of the guilt were still alive and willing to be accommodating to any interrogation of their wrongful acts that caused it. Then there would be hope that the release of the guilt is possible.

Unfortunately the nature of some older generations isnt so helpful, stubbornness, denials, gaslighting turning it back on the victim. But possible for some people.

Those with their perpetrators no longer with us or estranged etc are in a different situation Randomx. It does come back to acceptance, an easy word to write, much harder to do.

The bigger picture of acceptance is, life has its flaws, good, bad. I often think many people dont have an expectations of the bad side of life and when these issues compound we find it hard to move on because we think it shouldnt have occurred. Take a parent for example that has (as in my case) an undiagnosed mental illness like BPD. As a child she would make us feel guilty to elevate her own importance and enable her to manipulate us kids, also pitting us siblings against each other with triangulation. That left us with guilt, low self esteem as if we werent ever good enough. I worked in many honourable professions like the air force, warder in a jail, dog ranger, PI, security yet I had to remind my mother even at 50yo that I have "always been on the right side of the bars".

In my case when I reached 54yo I and my sister cut off all contact with her. I suppose it was the high point of accepting that how she acted was wrong and so inground in her behaviour that she would continue to her end, doing the same things. She is still alive at 90yo but I have no need to chase her for answers as the denial would prevail. It would be self destroying.

So the possible answers to your great question is- estrangement, acceptance, confidence to know/convince right from wrong (asking many other people for a consensus for example), research (eg I researched BPD and found extracts of my mothers behaviours in google - queen witch hermit waif ....that gave me all the answers), therapy of course and spiritual harmony (I found it with Maharaji Prem Rawat on youtube eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhrtbBrMQ1Y ) Since then 32 years ago I've followed every video and it has given me comfort.

Any progress is progress.

TonyWK

[Guest_1584]

Thanks WK.

Trouble is though, in your case then the wrongs were from others but in mine they are my wrongs and my guilt.

Don't think anyone's ever felt their own guilt from wronging me , in my experience most people don't even see they've wronged us , like your mother, but so l suppose lucky them then, no guilt.

lt's never ceased to amaze me through life how even family members just seem to strut of through life and feel nothing. Unfortunately l feel every wrong l ever did though myself. It seems l'm too empathetic for this world, l have too much of a conscience too, and l'm way way too observant . l envy those , which seems to be most people , that don't feel or see a thing, those that just strut of after doing something, ha, and probably never even think about it again, if they even realized it in the first place.

Not me , l carry it for yrs even after l've done my time.

rx

[white knight]

I've noticed in this forum members subjected to their partner having an affair, their guilt leads to doubting their own behaviour during their marriage. So I'd like to talk about that here.

A marriage of some years only to find your partner has been having an affair. The issue for the member that's been wronged commonly widens to include confusion over their input, the cause, the imperfection of their own actions within the marriage. So to seek clarification we can water down all the fringe issues and go back to basics on this matter. Not easy as every situation is different.

Marriage is a joining of two people that pledge- communication, care, consideration, teamwork, trust and so on

So if your partner, upon being found out, begins to gaslight eg "I had the affair because you (did this or that fill in the space) creates doubt about your own role in the marriage. It turns the tables- gee, "I didnt talk enough to her" or "I didnt make love to her like that guy does" etc

Let's be clear- any major dissatisfaction in a relationships should be addressed directly to the spouse and if all else fails to a counsellor then finally a separation. The art of turning those table around is an attempt to balance the guilt ledger. It is like "I slapped your face but you had your face in my danger zone so that's a good enough reason- why did you leave your face there?".

I had a long time friend whose wife had an affair. She broke it off upon discovery. They made their marriage work and she stopped her affair. Years later he had an affair. He told her "Well you had an affair too". Again, a turn about guilt trip. The marriage had moved on from her original affair, he had forgiven her. Hear what I'm saying?

I believe the greatest loss in adult behaviour is adult level of communication. To sit down and talk about any topic between spouses is almost lost in single minds in a marriage. Having a single mentality in a marriage is a recipe for a doomed future. Adults are single for much longer prior to commitment so blending in with each others values and togetherness is more elusive than couples marrying in their 30's. It's no longer "I" it's "we". Talk and dont stop.

As for guilt- recognise the signs of gaslighting (a loose term for the sake of the post) and call it out. Even on the world stage country leader give justification for brutal actions in invading countries and taking lives but try guilt to justify their actions.

What are your thoughts?

TonyWK

[Elizabeth CP]

I think a lot of us have feelings of guilt. Too often it hangs around for decades hidden from view because it is so bad and too painful to speak about it. We tell ourselves no one else would do such a terrible thing so we can't open up. I was talking to my sister recently who I'd always looked up to (&still do) She recently did a course and after others shared some things they had done in the past she shared what she had done which in her mind made her the worst mother of all time. What she learnt was that she was far from alone. Everyone has done things which they wish they hadn't but looking back in hindsight with less judgmental eyes she realised her action was due to her being pushed past her limit so rather than because she was terrible.

I also spoke to my psych about some things I had done which I felt really bad about. His response was that my action was a normal response to an abnormal situation. I guess my suggestion to Randomx is to try to put it into perspective. Where you reacting to extreme stressors or perhaps you have changed as a person over the years. In the latter case reminding yourself of how you have changed your values and actions. You can't change the past but you can move on and remind yourself of the positive ways you have changed

[Guest_1584]

Hi Elizabeth. Just about killing some time and saw your post. That was very nice of you so thanks for that.

ln my case one of the biggest things is that l'm dyslexic and while the few people that do know anything about it think that's only a reading thing, it's actually much more. It's mental blocks in all kinds of situations and you know when they'll hit and that brings on anxiety , and during anxiety as we all know we will do things or respond to situation in ways we wouldn't normally do. But l get the double , lucky me. The dyslexia mental blocks and so then the anxiety and freezing up even worse.

So those 2 things have played a huge part in things, but they can't take all the wrap though. Sometimes it's also been just me, bad choices and faults just like anyone else.

l wonder if my sisters reflect or feel guilt as yours has. All these yrs and l'm yet to see it or any awareness at all actually. But my dad on the other hand and a real mans man at that yet, had more conscious that just about anyone l've ever known.

rx

[Elizabeth CP]

I just remembered something I was told recently when I said I felt guilty about some things I'd done or not done. I was told to change the guilt to regret. I can say I regret doing .... This means you wish things had been different but is more accepting of the situation leading up to the issue. Whereas guilt can lead to shame and beating yourself up for not doing better which doesn't help and just leads to further loss of self worth and MH issues.

My son has dyslexia which was a real curse for him so I have some understanding of what it is like.

[Guest_1584]

Ah right yeah well you would then . lt's a crazy thing most people have no clue about it and just go blank if l need to tell them .

My gf has a brilliant attitude with regrets , she can just cancel them out. lt's not that she's hard she's not has the biggest most considerate heart you'd ever find but she calls it life. And she's right , it is life isn't it , she always says nobodies perfect and she can't go back.

rx

[white knight]

Hi E and R

My wife is dyslexic. I've known her since 1986, best mates then married 2011. It only was mentioned after our marriage, she hid it well. As soon as she exposed it I asked her to not to hesitate in asking the spelling of a word, the addition of numbers, whether she added too many zero's etc

She has depression but no mental blocks.

You've come a long way over the years Random.

Elizabeth- I like the regret word in place of guilt when appropriate. Anything to get more accurate description that effectively results in more accurate perspectives.

TonyWK

[Guest_1584]

Hi Tony.

Gee , 2 others in one thread out of nowhere. They're beautiful things you've said to her and so early in Tony and l see you've had plenty of experience since. Funny yeah, thk the Gods for visa cards is all l can say l've had some of the most embarrassing times with cash. l came up with a solution back in my 20s, not fool proof though. Try to pay with a much larger note than whatever it is will cost, and l should be covered. Trouble was l'd sit in the car 10 mins before hand just making sure it "was" a larger note only to try paying later and find out instead of a 50 it was only a 10 and l'd need to give her more so the fumbles would begin. l didn't tell my ex w but she soon figured it out and one day she just popped up with a list of famous people that were also dyslexic, she touched me so much that day and l apologized for not telling her. My partner now though, although she's very familiar with all kinds of MH and issues, for some reason just can't seem to understand dyslexia though or how l can run a business, l know it'll twig one day.

Thanks also for the kind words to btw muchy appreciated.

rx