Fast tracking problems - anti dwelling- identifying the moment

[white knight]

I have, through natural processes, chased methods of how I can more quickly overcome roadblocks in my life. This is fundamentally due to having had a stressed life eg long relationships failing and the grief processes along with them. Over time I've grown less tolerant of that grief and become more desperate to leap frog them onto happier times. This is why I'm sharing this with you as it has saved me from much hurt.

The scenario- A long term relationship begins to fail. You've tried counselling and changes, nothing works. Your partner says they no longer are in love with you. Your natural strategy is save the relationship but you've already tried doing that with counselling... what extra counselling will you both need that would reverse this falling out of love development? Sometimes a partner will hold on forever waiting until all their issues vanish, they rarely ever do. When is the time to be realistic? Well that is subjective but as a rule of thumb there are signs that pop up regularly that tell you it can be saved or cant be saved. Eg both declaring love for each other and acknowledging outside stresses are to blame is a "can be saved" moment. A "I'm not in love with you now" is a "cant be saved" moment. Those phrases may be comments that are regretful and expressing that could go from cant be saved to reconsidering if it can be saved, but this isnt common.

I had a "cant be saved" moment in a past relationship. My partner over many years had manipulated our finances to become the number one controller of our money. I was on an allowance. By this time I wasnt happy about it and felt my easy going demeanour resulted in being taken advantage of. I was earning 3 times her salary but always treat us to equal. Then a lifelong passion arrived- to purchase a special vehicle. That car would be owned by our company so it was a tax incentive... or we pay extra tax, so it was also clever to buy. She was not a car person so rejected the idea. At one point in our discussions she made a statement- "you can have the car but you have to save for it out of your allowance". I worked it out to take 42 years. That night we talked and that moment it "cant be saved" came "well start saving". I've discussed "passions" in other threads but a passion is a burning desire and those without a passion dont have that feeling and cant relate. It was over.

So, making quick decisions saves us from more hurt and dragging out issues- nip it in the bud!. Your thoughts?

TonyWK

[randomxx]

Hi there Tony.

Thinking one more dimension from me personally , on the as to whether it's a can or a can't.

Still says she still loves me every time we talk , but yet also says she just can't be in a relationship though bc of her stress and anxiety and the health problems it's all giving her and that she can't even look after herself anymore.

So to me it's a can be bc the love is still there and so is all the things that made us up as a couple, but then it's a can't bc although she still loves me, she says she can't.

What is all that l'd like to know ?

l agree with the fast tracking thing though bc l saw all this stuff in her 6yrs earlier when we met and so that's why even with the love and all we had, it ate at me and l couldn't commit. And so all that time, and here we are so should have l fast tracked it and gotten out sooner or would committing have avoided the way she's feeling now , dk .

rx

[Scared]

Yes but love is often irrational where by we put up with or do things we dont normally let our rational mind say or do. 
I agree with you to pull the pin on a souring relationship early to avoid the drawn out pain ahead and that is rational thinking.  I too use rational thinking when my g/f doesnt call me as much and I immediately understand she doesnt miss me as much as I miss her.  But the rational thinking is to save oneself from pain thus allowing the irrational thinking to creep in and take over.  Is this irony or a paradox im not quite sure.  At the same time your brain is saying end it now equally it saying the opposite.  Our brains are obviously wired to dodge emotional hurt but then comes a bigger question as why then we allow ourselves emotional pain as so many of us do on beyond blue.  I mean rationally I can say I dont want this depression anymore yet my depression at the same time can then be seen as irrational as I dont want it.  Im then led to believe that you cant be rational without the opposite irrational existing in the same place.  I admit I am completely irrational in this context even knowing its to my detriment.  Maybe our need for irrational thought comes from evolution in keeping couples together for a child to have the best chance of survival for the sole purpose of keeping a species progressing.  I speculate but why not

[white knight]

RX

I'm familiar with your situation as I followed most of your posts on your thread of recent times.

Ok, so lets narrow down a few things using some logic and rubbery figures. Let's say out of 100 people we could fall in love with 10 of them. Out of that 10 there could be 2 that we are very compatible with and stay with each other forever. Then there could be 5 that the relationship wouldnt work out at all and they wouldnt be saying they still love you after separation. Then there is 3 left and those are the ones that leave the relationship but still harbour some love for you. Of those 3, 2 could get back together once issues were fixed and 1 out of the 3 could be a person that is open enough to state they still love you. That could be your ex.

For someone to say "I still love you" can be broken down into segments. Obviously they could love you but they dont think they are compatible/share interest etc. The other possibility is that we all describe "love" differently. There is a giant gulf between "I love you" and "I love you and cannot bare to see us not be together, I cant live without you- can we try again?". Then there is the person that says the "love" when really they say it because they like you or embrace the memories they shared with you and so on. You could interpret her "I love you" as being something so special that there is hope you'll both reunite, whereas she could say that to another ex boyfriend and so forth. 

"The phrase of "I love you" can only be taken seriously as 'true love' when the words are backed up with commitment and actions... otherwise it's just 3 words... albeit rather hollow for you (as they lead nowhere)but means something to her, short of reuniting"

I have more female friends than male friends due to my sensitivity. I'm more emotionally connected. So a female friend I've known since we were teens, when I leave from a visit she tells me "I love you". We can get so focussed on these words but we should regard them as "can't" moments if they aren't accompanied by the actions that suit a romantic commitment.

Finally, an ex partner might have other reasons hidden. eg if she decided that she wants a different type of guy be it physical, emotional or personality, that should be taken in a manner that isnt personal. It's nothing personal for someone to seek someone different, it doesnt mean you arent good enough to be loved and to give love but everything to do with her not finding what she wants in yourself. Whereas another lady, you might tick all the boxes and never leave your side.

A good test for committed love from an ex is to see if they knock on your door and they tell you face to face that they want to reunite by moving back in. If they dont visit and say anything else then its mere words.

Moving on is hard but in my experience its easier when you start dating and once you fall in love again it becomes clearer why it didnt work out. I saw an ex I lived with for 7 years at the local shops 3 months after we split. I left her as she couldnt commit enough. We chatted and I said "I really loved you" and she said "yes I know but I'm confused". That was a "cant" moment as her confusion was why she could never commit. What I needed was "I was confused then but I'm not now, I still love you and I'd like to try again, what do you think".

TonyWK

[white knight]

Hi Scared

I agree with you about evolution and survival from our actions

Some times its impossible to explain lust when we have a logical mind. Lust or love can be so magnetic that logic disappears. We can be physically compatible and fully "in love" but not compatible in any other way or the reverse. It is indeed a minefield. The older we get the better we become in navigating that dangerous field.

We "allow ourselves emotional pain" because we are wired without the necessary roadblocks other people have that stops them getting committed emotionally in the early days. Us emotional types that fall in love quicker become startled when our newish partner breaks it off because we might like football or she feels smothered or there's a guy she met that she likes better??? 

When I was in my 20's I saw girl after girl get together with what I felt was a poor catch, some guy that treated her poorly, drank heavily, had a girl on the side. I could never understand it. When I became single again at 40yo I was shocked how many divorced women out there wanted a single guy like me that eg built his own house, ran his own business, treated his lady like a princess and loved children. It seemed the girls in my 20's with the wrong guy committed to them and learned their lesson as to what is a good guy and what they really wanted. The same goes in reverse.

The situation of one partner more needy for them than the other can be frustrating. We all like to be loved but some like to be loved one hour and freedom for activities the next. My wife has a cousin that she's close to, a lady her own age and my wife met her husband on the wedding day 25 years ago. That was the only day she met him in 25 years until we got married and he turned up. So her cousin was social, active in dog clubs etc but he remain at home... but they love each other and are committed, odd but?? 

Perhaps I'm introducing rationality to an emotional topic- love. But that rational thinking is a safeguard to what love can do to us. To come to a quicker result and move on by identifying the "can" and "cant's" moment isnt easy, however once into the habit of doing so you will know that true love and commitment has arrived when you drop them off at their door and realise the whole day was feeling of can, can, can.... 

TonyWK 

[randomxx]

Thx for the thoughts Tony much appreciated , and what's more they make sense of a few things.

1stly though l should add that me feeling as though l can't commit then goes right through in that case and l wasn't my usual self in a partner way, always holding back and a bit suss. Says bad match right there likely l know but l just needed things from her to trust the situation got all the love and affection a man could want but it didn't always feel real- which bugged me even more.

So when l say committed, l just mean l never did find out how things would've been if l'd had been my full on bf self with her instead. So all that was a catch 22 bc she didn't understand that l saw things in her about her, even though now she says when l reminded her so ok you were right, l know l was right, l knew then too. But so that all left her needing from me too bc l was hold back it hurt me to but l had to go with my conscience.

So with all those different loves you talk about , yeah , l see what you mean and l agree. l think she does love me for sure and she has done soooo much in all kinds of ways butttt, she was also in huge jambs all through too and needed it though and so what kind of love well, as you say nope she isn't turning up now and saying she wants to try again, she has everything she needs now that was the other part that always worried me and here we are. Her situation is sorted now but now she's too sick to have a relationship, apparently. lt might be about us too, ldk. l kind of did leave her needing more bc of my side in things, but at the same time, her mum has done and says all the exact same things. 78 now been single 30yrs. She's always thought she's doomed to be her mum.

l feel like saying when she does talk loving me,l need real love so pls just don't say it anymore. 

l use to have friend girls but l've given up. They either fell in love or wanted to sleep with me. So either way, the old girls as friends thing, it's just never worked out. l'd always think well it's obvious l'm not in love with you and l don't wanna sleep with you or l'm married or whatever, that's why we're just friends butttt, apparently it's not.  So l take my hat off to you in navigating that one.

l'm a bit scared to jump back in tbh , even if there was someone about l felt that way about. I was still getting over ex w when l met gf , she was very patient but it really messed with me and wasn't fair on her. l just don't want to expect someone else to wait around for me.

[white knight]

RX

Re: "got all the love and affection a man could want but it didn't always feel real"  the question now is- would you have felt "real" with another compatible woman? eg you were getting the love and affection you needed so is there elements of her that didnt stack up and of those would have you found the same in another person? Road blocks can come with every potential partner and that narrows the problem down to your own quirks. Such quirks are a direct threat to happiness.

Following 3 long term relationships I was committed to finding my soul mate. So I dated a lady that I'd matchmade with my once brother in law. During one date we danced in my kitchen. This lady was actually my best friend for over 25 years. After 10 days she broke it off. She was surprised with my philosophical reaction. Secretly I adored her as a friend and potential soul mate but outwardly my reaction was- if she is hesitant then she isnt what I hoped for. So she asked me "why so cool about it". "Well my soul mate would want me forever, wouldnt make me fight too hard for her heart and we would work everything out together, the world would be our oyster". Then a few days passed and she rang to meet me. At a park she was upset, she had felt uncomfortable that I was kind of "family". So I discounted that and told her so. "I always admired you" she said, and "I know I could fall in love with you but I'm scared". My answer- "well the way I feel, due to knowing who you are over a long time, I'll either dance with you in my kitchen or I wont dance at all with anyone else". The fact was I'd remain single from 53yo onwards. I wouldnt be bothered trying with anyone else. We married the following year and now 13 years.

My point is- if a relationship breaks up the reason it dissolved must be fundamentally decisive. If there is say 3 or 4 issues that could be fixed also decisively, then it could work again. If there is present multi "if's" and "why's" then its a never ending circle of confusion.

My first real love for 7 years (the lady I bumped into at shops 3 months after we broke up)... throughout those 7 years she couldnt move on into a marriage (we lived together but marriage in my period was still expected). After 6 years I gave her an ultimatum "in 12 months if you arent decisive we are no longer". 12 months to the day her answer was "I'm still thinking about it but I love you". That was heart tearing but I left. I had to accept that the one road block was never going to repair itself. 20 years on we met up. She was living with a guy for 5 years. I asked "would you ever marry him". Her reply "I'm thinking about it" lol.

So, a person could be perfect in every way but one major one, that one hurdle will always remain a hurdle...

TonyWK

[randomxx]

Can't thank you enough Tony as your ideas and wisdom mean a lot to me and the proof is also in the pudding as they say.

She said to me once, you will never get a better partner than me, and she was right. As l say she was such a giving person and took great pleasure , genuine please in just looking after you , and you her, it was a huge part of her culture.

None of that was the problem . The reason it didn't feel real bc earlier on she needed someone, desperately, so that was one angle and as l say her problems are sorted now but they were huge, but now that they are she doesn't need me and here we are. So that was one angle that really worried me early in. What happens when her stuff was sorted, will she still be the same- that took 4yrs.

The other part was though on the other hand, there were things about her character, personality, attitudes, some of that cultural too, what it meant though was that there were traits l just didn't trust, and once again, here we are.

l really hoped to see those, l really hoped to be wrong, l wanted to marry her, but l needed to be sure l was wrong about those things first.

Problem was, as a sweetheart as she can be, to this day it still looks like unfortunately l was right about them.

So love, affection and anything else could want are all beautiful and many a man might've been happy bc of all that, but l needed to know it was all real, not just duty or culture or that she needed me. And that the love was real too, and in the right kind of love,the kind you talked about.

But sadly once again, l was right about that and it's depth, it's kind of love, too.By the looks anyway bc once again, here we are.

As far as compatibility, we had differences, but but nothing extreme or unworkable , the kind your talking about. We felt the same and most things in the world too, views and stuff and we existed mostly really well together, my weird lifestyle was exactly hers too which is rare.

But nope, had of it had been an Australian girl or probably other nationalities , l wouldn't have even had those issues and doubts, not if it was real love, bc they work and think totally differently, more akin to the sort of thing you describe.

GF actually had a hard time wrapping her head around some of our ways and attitudes compered to hers,theirs, she didn't get a lot of it. lt's very complicated all that but you get the gist.

But as you say, in those ways there were things too that did make us in ways incompatible but which wouldn't have even been a thing with someone else.

You were right too in being that way with now wife, earlier. Unfortunately l tried it too with her but it didn't work. She was really curious and started calling me and messaging a lot , a wk after telling me she couldn't be in a relationship , but in the end though sadly nothing had really changed deep down. Think she was just a bit bamboozled at my reaction in ok then and walking away to start.

But like you say l guess, lf she didn't turn around and get her head straight, try , then she wouldn't have been the one and so l suppose gf isn't the one either then.

ldk how l feel about starting again yet or bothering. Sounds like your mind was made up though. l would prefer a partner l've always preferred that life, l don;t know if she;ll come along again though now.

Thanks again Tony.

Cheers

[randomxx]

Tony , did you always love your friend in this way, or did something change causing you to finally realize and get together after all those yrs ?

As far as the fixable things with gfx, any of my doubts were basically fixable. The one most important thing that basically came from these things causing doubts, could've changed everything , it all lead back to one thing.

Trust basically, trust in her love and of how real it was.

But as you've said , real love will stick around and want to work it out, the right kind of love will.

That was my problem in a nutshell, l just never quite felt as though she would if the going got tough, and here we are.

Got no doubt she does still love me as she says, but l don't think it's that kind of love you talk about or the kind l also needed to see.

Unless, it really is all about her sicknesses , what do you think about that ?

She's been to hell and back over the last 10yrs  poor thing but has had a hard life right through too .

She says her depression and anxiety now, is partly inherited . her mum and uncle both have terrible anxiety and depression , and part from real things and life she's been through.

That's why she says she can't work it out, say's she doesn't have the strength left not for two people or to even look after herself.

Would you think the right love could, ? l don't know myself . Her mum did the same thing in her 40s, cut of everything and has been alone since.

[white knight]

Rx

My 1st wife and I were married 11 years. During all that time I knew "D" and matchmade her to my BIL. I split with wife and lived with another for 10 years then split. D split with her husband after 20 years. So we were both single in 2009. We became a couple 2010. To answer your question, while we were with other partners we both didn't have any romantic feelings, pure friendship.

I will be frank, there's no hope that I can see for you both, based on lack of drive from her and trust issues from you. Relationships need effort and faith, hope and reassurance, care and sacrifice. It must all mesh like a smooth gearbox, not get stuck in 2nd.

"No doubt she still loves me"... more like she still possess (a) love for you. Having a love for you doesn't tick all the boxes, certainly it's something nice to hear and cradle those words but it isn't- "in love with you". 

Google- beyondblue who cries over spilt milk

Beyondblue the frog and the scorpion  this one teaches us that someone's nature doesn't change. I can discuss them when you tell me what you think of them

TonyWK