Questioning some things

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Those of you who know me know I have been bouncing from one rough life event to another for years, without really any time to take a breath in between. I can state well enough the things that have happened to me, but haven't had much energy to delve deeply into what those things have done to me. In the time off work since my partner had major surgery (yup, another fun crisis), I had time to start pulling at threads, to get a Mental Health Care Plan, see a psych and talk to a counsellor. As much as I always knew my life has been a steaming pile of crap, the threads I am pulling are connecting dots and giving rise to possible clarifications of events and what has arisen in their wake.

My childhood was severely neglectful. Mostly emotionally, but also in some physical ways. We kids didn't sleep in the (perfectly good) house, we slept in a caravan nearby - Mum cleaned up her and Dad's bedroom and the kitchen after the mouse plagues, but apparently our rooms weren't worth the effort. He carries on about her "unfit" parenting, but it's not like Dad did anything about it either. We were fed and clothed well enough. Never a lot of attention from either of them. I don't remember a single hug from either one during my childhood. Mum would immediately disinfect her hands if by some chance she came to touch one of us. Some years later, post parental divorce, Mum's settlement money ran out and we endured a brief stint without a home, a much longer (years) stint of inadequate food and no hot water.

I actually became pretty functional after moving out. Worked, studied, maintained a place on my own. Went through a couple of less than healthy relationships and endured with surprising resilience. Then came the last relationship. First two years, no major problems. Then bam, he's unfaithful. Enter ol' Blue's depression, that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. Damn fool remained in contact with him and we tried again at the relationship. To be fair, he didn't repeat that particular mistake. He tried hard to redeem himself and be a better partner. Until the ring was on the finger. Engagement in place, all effort fell away little by little. Dear gods did the neglect become overwhelmingly severe. I kind of got that there was a theme, but it's literally only now, years after breaking up with him, that I see why it was that straw that began my depression - just how closely what he did mirrored my parents' behaviour.

[Jstar49]

Hey Blue,

Its bloody uncomfortable human being.

I guess it is unhealthy bottling it all up. Still, it’s pretty scary letting it all out. And can fry the nerve endings in the process. ( my week in a nutshell)

I guess none of us know if we’re doing it right. We just have to live and learn, and do our best, at the time.

Very few ppl seem equipped to deal with openness in others.

It’s interesting what you describe about using wounds(?) as a kind of shield- no I haven’t seen Game of Thrones, yet, but I can relate. That makes sense with what I know of you.
Tbh, I usually think that less emotion would work better for me. But perhaps, in the way of chemistry, I am often drawn to less emotional ppl. And perhaps they to me. And maybe we get something from each other.
Yes! Past relationships change the lens thru which we view relationships.
On its own, that doesn’t seem a bad thing. And Phaps my past r/ships give me caution, and a certain reticence to spill all, trust all, depend upon another for all. That part is ok.
What I don’t like is the... emotions! The ‘heart in my chest’ anxiety. The insecurity plaguing me suddenly. The hesitancy- am I doing the right things? The anger. The confusion. Wanting to retreat. Not wanting to lose what I’ve gained.

Far more comfortable to have no-one, and not care.

But is that what I really want?

No answers, only questions.
I hope you’re doing better than me!

Cheers,

J*

[Jstar49]

Blue,

rereading your post to Em I’m struck by how important this guy was to you.

...........…

Have you heard of the approach of: seeing everyone in your life as a teacher?

I guess everyone teaches us something, whether they intend to or not.

Perhaps, borrowing something from EMS approach, to thank this guy for what he taught you ( I feel like crying here) . To accept the lesson, hard as it is/was.

One step at a time.

Love,

J*

[ecomama]

Dearest Blue and HEY darling mini me! lol SO nice to meet you - BIG cuddles! Aunty EM loves you SO DARNED MUCH!

You are one of my very bestest friends too! And J* and Sleepy... and Grandy is my wholehearted Nan.

Now that we have the official formalities of our relationship statuses clear lol, would you be okay in really getting down to the nitty gritty of that entire experience with me / us?

I think we need to, but it's completely up to you of course.

I totally "get" what you said about when you feel angry etc, we .... IDK what you do, but I KNOW I punish myself.
I should put that in PAST tense lol! Punished... that's an Affirmation really lol.

I have.

For me it was the self hatred for choosing the wrong man.
Cheeses if YOU said that!... then I'd say "But Blue HOW WERE YOU TO KNOW he was the wrong man?... he had all the hall marks of being able to trust him.
So that meant you could LOVE him.
Of course your feelings became deeper - and you thought his had too, maybe they HAD but he was too disordered and selfish to put YOU first.

As you did him".

And you did.

He didn't DESERVE it but woah, you were really polishing your skills in relationships in that one.
Pity he didn't understand the gravity of this for you - or care.

LM IS the recipient of ALL that progress you made in that phony r/ship. Sorry but that's how I see cheaters - pretenders, charlatans, liars. They have to be. PHONY.

NOW you have a man of substance.

Anyhow, back to your experience of infidelity....
Re: Alexa... it's so funny. She says "IDK whether I should tell you or not..."
I say "Come on spill it ALL OUT lol"....

and she does.

Venturing into our Shame Forest is far less scary when someone you TRUST, who you KNOW has your back, is holding your hand the entire walk.

You seem to have a lot of SHAME attached to your reaction to this / HIS infidelity?
ie why it shook you so much (I'm like hey yeah! of course it DID!)
How you haven't been able to "fully recover" (I'm like IS that a thing? lol)

I have shame about a trillion OTHER things, not THAT... that crap was ALL on the cheater for me.
I played NO role. I remained 100% faithful, committed and that nut abused this privilege 100%. So goneskis.

I am WORTH waaaaay more than that!
And Thank God you knew that YOU were WORTH waaaay more than that too!

Herein lies our worthiness, even tho we know we struggle with worthiness.

Love EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Yeah, whatever we do with our emotions, in or out, feels rather unpleasant. Wish they'd just sod off, to be honest. You're quite right about few people being equipped to deal with openness in others. I'm sure you've noticed I am rather forthright by nature. It is often not well received.

I get what you mean about having less emotion around you, being drawn to less emotional people. I did have a period of being a typical human, swinging the pendulum far to the opposite (hence psycho ex), found that really didn't work for me. A calm baseline is a big thing for me in those I surround myself with, these days. There's more balance, though, I find the "cold fish" types are in fact more emotionally unstable than those with just a little bit of fire.

The lens of past relationships is a double-edged sword. On one hand it gives us our red flags as a guide. On the other, it distorts our ideas of what is normal and the difference between a red flag and mere human imperfection (hence all the emotions you described). It is worth examining the lens itself with a critical eye, and regularly.

I guess there is a difference between being comfortable in isolation and fulfilled in a few meaningful connections. We are unfortunately a social species, and we only do so well in total isolation.

Ugh, honestly I don't want to think about the importance that damnable man-child had to me at the time. What a waste. I think I'm a long way from thanking him for anything my experience with him taught me. Thanking myself for being bright enough to learn it, sure. The closest he'll get to thanks is that I didn't keep trying to make it work with him, he can get on with his life now, too.

Kind thoughts,

Blue.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM (or should I say Aunty EM),

I can imagine Mini Me's look of sheer perplexity at the cuddles. More so than ol' Blue, even.

Yup, that's pretty well established. I don't know Sleepy or Grandy especially well (they both seem like good eggs), but you and J* are right up there.

I'm not unwilling to talk about things. Perhaps baby steps with it...

There's plenty to unpack just with the anger. Anger at him, obviously. Anger at the piece of crap he decided to value over me. Anger that it was someone I knew. I know its face, I know its name, and how do you not have a vivid picture of everything that happened with that knowledge?

There isn't much self hatred for choosing the wrong man. I don't think he was, at the time I chose him. I didn't know he was capable of infidelity because he didn't know he was that sort of person. He believed he had morals. Turns out they just hadn't been tested yet.

My moments of self hate are over feeling hurt by him. My anger is with how unworthy he is of causing me to feel anything. I recoil at the emotions far more so than the events, the triggers impact me because I am enraged by the weakness of feeling anything about it at all. And you know how my stress response is to fight. You also know how fighting emotions makes them worse. Guess who didn't always know that. The instinct got a foothold well before I knew any of that.

You commented on the gravity of what I put into the relationship. After we split, he remarked on how I didn't shut my previous ex out or avoid him in the same way. I told him I hadn't invested nearly as much. Funny about that.

Yes, LM gets to reap the progress I made before. What I hate is he also reaps the setbacks - the insecurities, the 'Nam flashbacks, all that stuff.

The shame mirrors the anger, it's over the same crap, that I felt anything about it. Also - and this chiefly - that I tried again with him when I damn well knew better. Now that's a real kicker, I have no excuse for that. As for my reaction to his actions, I have a problem with the division - yes his actions are all on him. What I feel, how I act, anything within me in the wake of it - I can't not hold myself responsible for that bit. I guess on the bright side is the flip side of that is I am likewise responsible for my healing and won't be one of those people who stops living their life and goes on about how someone who isn't even there any more stopped them from doing so. No they didn't. That's a choice. I choose better.

Blue.

[Jstar49]

Blue,

"I choose better."

And That is you in a nutshell. Unrelenting in your high standards. Of yourself.

Hmm, emotions. I am FB friends with lots of parents, and a few educators. Recently a post came up about childhood, and, among other things, how it's a time to learn to regulate our emotions. Not to not have them, which seems to be what society demands of children, with all its messages: stop crying, be quiet, stop yelling, don't be angry etc ect etc. And I KNOW that the suppression of my childhood feelings made it so much more difficult for me as an adult. I know becos i had to spend years, a decade almost, learning about my emotions, learning how to feel, how to name them, what to do when I had them. it was completely overwhelming. It often still is! lol not lol.

Forthright is good. I think that for many ppl tho (and this is an evolving revelation) they cannot match that level of forthrightness or openness, and so they become critical of it. I want ppl to be brave enough to match me. If they can't, I feel.....empty. Perhaps I'm learning not to expect that of everyone, and to allow others to be as small and shallow as they need to be. Not sure...I'm definitely drawing more brave open types to me! And that, I think, is healthy!

I like a calm baseline. Perhaps with some fancy harmonies in the upper reaches....

Omg what is normal? I wish I knew! Altho my relatively new friend has this wonderful...baseline..... of feeling secure in herself. I suspect she had wonderful, tho imperfect, parents, from her stories. I am deeply envious, but also determined to borrow from her a sense of self which I didn't know was possible. Isn't it wonderful how we can do that?

Blue, I've read ahead, and, got to say, none of us is pure or untouched by our lives. I think your deep appreciation of LM makes your relationship what it is. In part. And if so, how can there be any regrets??? Nam flashbacks included. He loves you, you love him. He's getting better. That will help so much. Life is becoming beautiful, just like your garden which I can see so clearly! Complete with birds and bees and butterflies.

How's the parsley plant coming along?

Also, maybe it's not thanking the 'man-child' which is necessary. Maybe thanking...life, the universe, the tides which brought you to LM. Does that feel more right? Imagine if you could see your life, and the path which brought you here HAD to travel via ex and all that crap. Was it all worth it?

Love

J*

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Funny you should say that, "Unrelenting Standards" is actually a Schema, which kinda fits me - it has its up sides, which I think you are referring to. It also has its downsides, like struggling to relax, and never quite feeling like I'm doing things well enough. But that may be a conversation for another day.

What you said about learning to deal with your emotions really resonates with me. It was very much my way to just shut them off (barring anger and humour, I knew them okay, though the anger could get kind of explosive at times). It was only when I got hit with the depression stick that I lost the ability to do that and I was well past childhood by that point. I had to work out what was going on with me, what it meant, what to do with it, just like you did. Hell of a learning curve, I can tell you! So yeah, still a challenge, I completely get where you're coming from.

Interesting observation about being forthright. I think you might be onto something. I, too, want others to meet me on the same level, though I know most can't. Honestly, those that can't get relegated to at best petty acquaintances in my estimation and I leave it at that. No time for anything less. (Unrelenting Standards, mayhap? Haha.) I'm glad you're drawing more brave and open types to you. I think it may be relevant to your discussion with EM about being authentically yourself. What you put out there tends to attract the same sort of energy.

Is normal even a relevant term? I divorce myself from the concept of normal! I like that your new friend has a sense of security in herself, and more so that you can learn from that and perhaps apply it to yourself to some extent.

Certainly true that none of us is untouched by our lives. Sometimes you don't even know what is going on in that department until a lot later - I never thought the stuff with my parents was such a big deal, but I'm certainly seeing ways in which I was wrong about that. Hard to guage that sort of thing when you start your life with it being your "normal".

Yeah, I do know that part of my relationship with LM is about the place I was in when we met. Neither one of us was doing so well, we connected on that level as much as on anything else. I do see your point about the path I've travelled leading me to him. Heck, I met him at work, so there's another thing about life I don't relish that found some worth by virtue of his presence.

Out of words, I'll catch you up on the garden thread re parsley and stuff.

Blue.

[ecomama]

Dear Blue and LM lol HI J*! And all others reading!

It's your Aunty EM speaking to you now lol...

Hey quit being so tough on MY FRIEND for having fee - lings please.
That's what all the betrayal / infidelity is about for you?
Your natural emotional reactions to being BETRAYED by someone you were supposed to marry?

BLUE I WENT ALL OUT WITH MY EMOTIONS on the subject and woah ALL MY FRIENDS did too!
We were disgusted, reviled, vomitous lol everything you could imagine after the disgusting things we found out.
And it just kept coming for 5 YEARS. I still get "surprises" now.

I'm full on 100% FINE with my justified emotional response.
Always will be.

That's me in a nutshell though lol.
Why do you feel the need to restrain perfectly natural reactions?

Blue I twisted myself in KNOTS for a whole year "trying" after D Day.
Do I regret it? Yes and NO.
I NEEDED to know for sure that there was no chance in high heaven of saving that horrid marriage.
I was more afraid of losing the kids 50 / 50 and he KNEW it. So kept threatening it.
And my home. Chickens. Pets. The lot.

That's why I "tried" but it's no one's business WHY someone tries. Although I LOVE the Chumplady catchcall "Lose a cheater, gain a LIFE!" so true.

I lost so much bec of that creature.
If I wanted to stay angry and if I ever DO get angry then I validate that for my self.
ANY ONE would be angry if they lost as much as I did! I'm not a robot.

Then I know being an angry person doesn't resonate with me for long.
I attend to my anger, let it OUT in any way I think is "healthy" lol like angry cleaning or angry gardening and I soothe it.
I'm a nice person. I met an eggplant lol.

I'm grateful for "Scorpio Rising" in my natal chart.

Hey peeps... you wanna be NORMAL?
Why?

Why stoop so low when you can be YOU!

Incredible, funny, resilient, resourceful, grow parsley hahaha, COMPOST omg why be normal - yuck cheese how boring.
That goes for you too J*! (Yeah I know you can grow parsley too, stop holding out lol).
Blue you may just have to MOW your parsley soon like I have to whipper snip our MINT.

Remain EXCEPTIONAL.

You are a WONDERFUL friend to me and I treasure you deeply.
Tbh I wouldn't want you to be ANY other way than to be exactly like YOU.

Love EM xxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey Aunty EM (& J* and anyone else following along),

You said: "That's what all the betrayal / infidelity is about for you? Your natural emotional reactions to being BETRAYED by someone you were supposed to marry?"

Yup, that's it in a nutshell. I can work with the disgust, the revulsion, the anger, etc. - those things come from a place of force, of power. What I can't do is the hurt, the sadness, the stuff that makes me vulnerable.

You asked: "Why do you feel the need to restrain perfectly natural reactions?"

Enter Emotional Deprivation Schema. I was reading something about the nature of trauma and our responses to it - that where things like PTSD come from is related to the support we have at the time of a traumatic event. Whether we have people around us to help us through the emotions we can't process and work through alone. Well, guess what emotions I can't process and work through alone? Guess what I didn't have through every goddamn traumatic experience in my life before I met LM? If I can't process that crap alone, and I'm typically alone with it, what exactly do I do with it? Right or wrong, I have fought like hell to banish those things from myself. Hell, I've just fought, period. That's what I do. It's not going to be a five minute job to stop that automatic process from coming up time and time again.

I didn't know you kept trying after D-day. I understand your reasons. Mine, well, stupidly I still gave a damn about him. I acknowledged that he was quick to admit what he did, that he tried to be a better person (to be fair, he didn't repeat the same mistake, but learned precisely nothing about fixing the lack of willingness to communicate on his part that led to it), I even researched the likelihood of recidivism. Fairly low in cases where they didn't simply get away with it, unlike abuse in which case recidivism is almost 100%. But deep in me I knew I couldn't forgive such a fundamentally immoral act, not from within the relationship. I knew better, but I was still there. I haven't really forgiven myself for that.

What's this about wanting to be normal? Not in this lifetime! I'd consider it an insult to be called normal, it's not a thing to aspire to in my opinion, never has been.

Cheers for taking me as I am, though. Certainly not everyone does.

Blue.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Interesting day today, have tackled something I have not exactly been in a hurry to tackle. As you guys know, there has been tension with the MIL since LM's surgery, we fought bitterly when there was a push for only one person at all to see him in the hospital - a concept we had been working around under the radar already, when she suddenly pushed to be that one person and that was it. Of course I pushed back - hard. It worked out that we continued going under the radar seeing him day about and that was fine, but it really ruined our relationship.

After a while she just started acting like nothing had ever happened, being all nice and lovey-dovey. I'm sure you guys can imagine how well that crap sits with me. I have been cordial but no more since, not pushing things so as not to make waves for LM when he still wants her in his life. He's no fool about my moods when she's mentioned though, and pushed me to try and resolve things for both our sakes.

I wrote her a letter some while back, told her my thoughts on her behaviour and that I wasn't happy about it being swept under the rug like nothing is wrong. It's remained with her for ages, given all that's happened since - the debacle with my meds, lockdown, etc. - I wasn't likely to see her any time soon after. It's worked out that the time she had for reflection has been useful, and she has spoken at length with LM and her daughter about what I said.

I saw her today, for the first time in possibly a couple of months (can't say there wasn't an element of me putting it off a bit after the other stuff blew over), and blow me down if it wasn't actually productive. She was self-reflective, understanding and apologetic. Hell, even said she was glad I fought back at the time, and that I pushed to bring everything to light after all this time. There was a lot more said, and I think her words were authentic. I'm very tired from the exchange, have a lot to process and reflect on. But hey, that was a thing. I sure wasn't looking forward to it, but I did it.