Animal cruelty, climate change, monoculture...the list goes on.

[ChrissyStar]

I feel hopeless and have decided not to have children because of the state of the world (why would I wish to bring a child into this when I myself, do not like to live here?). Does anyone else feel the same?

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

Beautiful birdy: The world needs people like you, dear friend...we really do...

You put a big smile on my face when you said that you feel I encourage you to just be you 🙂 But, really, that’s all you need to be...we love and admire you for you...

I’m proud of you for speaking up more. You light up the pages with your deep compassion and conviction in what you believe in...

I think it takes a huge heart and courage to talk about something that is so close to heart, especially if this topic is not always very popular...

Sigh, in my opinion, I don’t think there’s such a thing as a truly “comfortable” vegan. Or a truly “comfortable” animal rights activist or a truly “comfortable” environmental lawyer either, for example. Etcetera. Etcetera...

I suppose a degree of discomfort comes with pushing for any major change or trying to advocate for someone else’s rights. Change and comfort generally don’t mix in my eyes...

I think the animal videos that were taken down are a great example of misdirection of action (in my opinion). I wholeheartedly agree with you if some people find the video content so (understandably) confronting. Then an alternative course of action could be to re-think certain purchase/consumption behaviours rather than request that the animal videos be taken down...essentially, what you suggested...

I feel part of the reason this happens is people, and even if they are generally kind hearted and well meaning, don’t always make the connection between supply and demand. Certain food items are for sale (supply) because we buy them (demand)...

As long as there is money to be made, i believe that the inhumane conditions will continue. But, as consumers, I believe we can “vote” with our dollars...

I know how much animal cruelty hurts your heart, and how important it is for you to voice all this...

I am caring, listening and feel your sadness and pain...many warm hugs, my friend...Love and friendship xoxox

Monkey_Magic: your expanding compassion and open mindedness is heart warming and inspiring.

Perhaps we can all learn and grow together...I’m learning too 😉 xoxo

All:

On a somewhat lighter note, I saw a quote recently and I feel it is relevant to the loving and compassionate spirit of this thread 🙂

If you are moved to

such a degree,

that you feel the pain,

and that you can

feel the tears

running down your face,

then you’re looking at

an opportunity to

make a change,

to make a difference

to the world.

- unknown

[Unbeliever]

The quote above is something that I completely agree with.

Interestingly, this quote deals with exactly one of the points I having been trying to make on my thread (Although my thread is somewhat darker than this one, this thread I consider to be the "shiner" side of the same coin).

I worry about how "depression" has been interpreted as a "dragon that needs to be slain" when it quite possibly is just the voice inside us that is screaming for something to change. A change that we quite possibly desperately need, and we are suffering for without it.

I'm pretty sure that the most significant revolutions that happened in human history were spearheaded and recruited by large numbers of followers who were pretty consistantly unhappy about particular things in their lives and had been for a long period of time.

If those people had been somehow convinced that they were ill and needed therapy and to be medicated on mass... I'm very confident that many historical events would never have happened and our world today would be extremely different.

For example... I'm pretty sure the womens rights and the racial equality advocates back in the day were pretty depressed on a regular basis about their daily circumstances... quite possibly for the majority of their lives. Would you go back in time and tell those world changing men and women that they were actually just suffering from an mental illness and just needed some prescribed drugs to get better?

Perhaps consistant sadness is in reality our brains attempting to "wake us up", and depression is simply the price we pay for trying to force ourselves to ignore the things we are upset about the most (ie. the things we are most passionate about).

Perhaps this all is a symptom of our need for things to be dramatically different in our lives and is actually meant to be the motivation for us to create the change we so desperately feel we need to be happy... and depression is simply what happens when we are too afraid to do something about it.

Perhaps we have got it all back to front and inside out.

Just a thought...

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

Special wave to beautiful birdy and lovely M_M 🙂

Unbeliever: It’s great to see you writing on this thread again 🙂 I’m really glad that the above quote resonated with you. Your comment about how this thread is the “shiner side of the same coin” made me smile.

About your theory, I must admit that I don’t know enough about research on depression to give an educated enough comment. I’m pretty sure there are gaps in my understanding.

But to offer my somewhat uneducated thoughts, I can see what you’re trying to express and I think that I understand your rationale. I do feel perhaps there is some merit in your theory about how consistent sadness might be our bodies/minds alerting us to our own personal disconnect...

To be fair, I don’t know what all those very inspiring and dedicated activists that you mentioned were feeling at the time. I can only speculate...

So speaking from a purely speculative standpoint, I wouldn’t be surprised if, as you suggested, they probably did spend a large amount of their lives feeling deeply unhappy.
To have been so aware of grave but “acceptable” injustices (at the time), and to have had to fight whole societies, mindsets and institutions for what we now perceive as fundamental human rights.

That? That must have been incredibly painful and exhausting...it must have been an enormous load to carry...

When it comes to climate change, etc...my perspective is no positive change happens purely based on good intentions. Good intentions are an important starting point. But I feel it’s inadequate if it stops there. I think it’s the follow through that is going to be the deciding factor...

In my opinion, there are plenty of people with good intentions who genuinely mean well. But sadly, I feel it often goes no further than the intentions “stage”. I think that is one of the biggest obstacles when it comes to climate change and animals...

I feel people sometimes get a little overwhelmed. So I feel it’s helpful to break down an issue into more manageable parts...

As in break down a huge problem into smaller problems that people can tackle by making small changes in their daily lives from a reusable cup to re-thinking their food sources. But you’re right...I agree that there needs to be more people making those small changes for there to be an adequate positive cumulative effect on the environment.

It’s always a pleasure to exchange thoughts with you 🙂

Thanks so much to you (and all) for reading!

[Birdy77]

Hello ChrissyStar, Unbeliever, Pepper, M_M, and everyone,

I love that quote Pepper. So true. It's in those moments of realisation, discomfort and pain that lie the possibilities for the instigation of change.

Unfortunately i think most people don't want to be in that pain or acknowledge that discomfort as a wake up call (eg. so they stop the video feeds rather than stop what's being videoed ... as you said: " misdirection if action").

Unbeliever, welcome back to the shiny side, tra-la-la-la-la 😉

I think there could be truth in your idea about depression sometimes coming from ignoring something inside (perhaps our higher self?) trying to shake us up.

I'm pretty sure you'd be right that those world changing activists back in the day would have felt very depressed at times, as activists for contemporary issues would now too.

But i reckon a huge contributor to that feeling is not necessarily always that one is being afraid to do something about making changes, but that one can't make everyone else care.

One can't force another to pull their head out of the sand. One can talk until one is blue in one's face about the injustices, the cruelty, the planet being destroyed, but one can't make another care more or see that there are different ways of doing things or make any changes whatsoever.

I find that depressing. Frustrating, annoying, infuriating ... and at the end of the day: depressing.

On your thread, Unbleiever, you were talking about all the things you strive to do "right", but that it sort of feels like a drop in the ocean (actually I think you said it felt like trying to change the ocean current with your two hands) ... I can really relate to that. But it won't stop me, no matter how my hands might ache from trying.

I feel like sometimes the feeling of depression comes from being able to see all the wrongs and live in a world where others see those wrongs as rights.

😢

🌻birdy

[Unbeliever]

Peppermintbach,

It is only due to me being "uneducated" that I am able to see things from alternative angles as easily as I do.

Educated people are taught extensively within the strict confines of whatever belief systems are the most prevalent of their times. Which while I acknowledge is fantastic for specialisations... as a consequence makes it much more difficult to even perceive alternative ideas and can greatly hinder their ability to evolve new concepts within those specialised fields.

Basically, what I'm saying is... never begrudge the advantages of being "uneducated". Because if properly appied it can be the path to revelations that others may become too educated to reach (as I have witnessed a few too many times in my life).

I agree that those people involved in creating such world changing revolutions were incredible individuals. They did have one advantage.

They were fighting for the benefit of a distinct group of people against another distinct group of people (who were simply more comfortable for them to exist without those benefits) (races and genders).

In our case however, are fighting against the very people we are trying to help for the longterm benefit of us all. The same people who don't even realise or believe that they need any help. It's a unique situation fraught with multiple layers of complexities that the "race and gender wars" never had to deal with.

Not only are the lines far more blurred. But the stakes in the long term are much higher and the timeframe we have to work with is far tighter. Waiting for people to get to the point where they feel "enough is enough" and that it is time to act... in this case will be far too late (technically, on multiple levels it already is).

As you said... "good intentions" is not enough.

Uff, when I think of the ways my life would have been different if more people were willing "to share the load" and take some of the responsibility... it hurts.

I might have been able to have a car, maybe even have a kid, travel to a few more cool locations overseas or partake in a large range of tasty edible goodies, been able to enjoy more beautiful days at beaches not picking up rubbish and being snickered at by attractive girls etc etc... and as a consequence been more successful in establishing relationships and also carry far less internal guilt for not doing enough. Not to mention... No depression.

Ahhhhh.... the warm fussy feeling of indulging in unrealistic fantasies. *Sigh*... Oh, well.

[Unbeliever]

Birdy77,

I agree that there are potentially many reasons why a person doesn't want to see something that is right under their nose. But I do think fear is likely a common one.

But I don't necessarily mean fear of the thing itself. But fear that they have devoted a large chunk of their short time in this life to something that was a lie.

For example... If you believed in something for say a year. Were outspoken about it, passionate, devoted etc... and then discovered that without a doubt that "something" wasn't true. You might feel a little silly and embarrassed (and there are some people who are really afraid of appearing silly or feeling embarrassed).

However, if you believed and devoted yourself to a belief for say 10 years and then discovered it was a lie... afterwards you would probably feel pretty stupid (and there are many people who are really afraid of appearing stupid).

But let's say it was 20 years. Now you are talking about a significant chunk of your entire life. Now afterwards you be in the realm of probably feeling devastated at the loss and ashamed you were foolish for so long (and no-one wants to feel devastated or ashamed).

Anything beyond that... say 30 or 40 years (or more). It would be like losing a part of your own personality and a piece of who you are and your very identity... not only to yourself but to all those around you. By this point... I think choosing to just accept the lie despite any evidence would be easier than admiting you messed up for such a long time (regardless of how brave a person you were).

Fear takes many forms and I have found that denial can be a very good indicator.

Yes, I admit that despite everything I have ever done over my whole life, having to acknowledge that all my actions alone overall have not done a single thing to improve anything in the world that I care about is... painful.

I realise no matter how much I minimise, or sacrifice, or not contribute to. 1 person out of 7.7 billion doing the wrong thing can not only make up that difference I worked so hard for... but exceed it. Effectively making all my efforts completely worthless and erasing any possible good feelings I could derive from having done any of it.

But I wont stop... I can't. Even if it only means that when people in the future are talking about the foolish mistakes this generation made, without ever realising it they wont be talking about ME.

The way things are going, I think that for me... that will have to be enough.

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

Special wave to Unbeliever and M_M,

Beautiful birdy: I’m very pleased that that quote resonates with you too 🙂

I really liked your thought provoking post. I think you have a valid point about how a person can talk till they’re blue in the face and try every tactic under the sun, but still not get enough people to take action/change...

I get it...I really do...it’s exhausting and disheartening and frustrating. Sighs, I agree...xoxox

All:

I am varying degrees of tired most days too. But I think sometimes we just have to dig our heels in the sand, and do what we feel we feel we need to do...

Even if the odds are stacked against whatever it is we wish to see happen ...just keep “doing”, pause and rest if and when need be, but then keep on doing the doing...

I feel both UB and birdy are right though. It’s going to take (many) more people for the cumulative effect to be sufficient...many, many more...

The other option, and in some ways is even more powerful, would be changes in legislation. But given the immense power and interests of industry lobby groups whose goals definitely do not align with environmental conservation or animal protection, that’s a tough one to change...sigh...not impossible but extremely difficult and messy...

I was watching an interview with the head of a network of women’s shelters (not-for-profit). As you can probably imagine, that’s a very tough and high stress environment to manage/work in...

One of the things that she said that really helped her was to surround herself with like minded people. I think she has a point, because whatever your passion (be it climate change and/or animal rights or something else altogether), it can get very lonely (and frustrating and upsetting).

But I think there’s a real sense of mutual understanding when you’re around people who share common goals/worldview/mentality. It really does make a difference...

I suppose that’s one of the key reasons that I I visit this thread regularly 😉

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Unbeliever (and all),

A special wave to Chrissystar, birdy and M_M 🙂

Sorry, I only saw your posts after I posted my latest one...

Your longing/fantasising paragraph did make me feel sad. I think that other life would have been a more comfortable life. The more conventional/socially acceptable life too, with more personal support from a partner/spouse (and probably less judgement from others)...

About those snickering women, I feel what they did was mean spirited. As attractive as they may have been to you, would you really want to date a woman who snickers at a man trying to clean up the beach?

In any case, I really admire your commitment and steadfast dedication to what you believe in. Even though I realise it comes at your own personal expense because you try to make up the shortfall. The shortfall that exists due to some people not doing the bare minimum to help...you’re right, if everyone/most people did the bare minimum, that would make a huge difference.

About your comments that compared the differences between climate change/animal rights to past activism, I agree with you. That’s a really good observation...

I think, aside from the many other reasons of culture/unchallenged norms/convenience/habits/industry power over legislation that we have discussed before, the fact that there is a less obvious “oppressor” or “oppressive group” makes it harder for some people to grasp the urgency of climate change. Essentially, that’s my interpretation of your thoughts but please feel free to let me know if I’ve misunderstood 😉

Also as you touched on, us humans are both the problem and the solution when it comes to climate change and non-human animals. But, I think some people genuinely struggle to accept/acknowledge the duality of being both the affliction and the remedy. I feel some people need an obvious “other” for a threat to feel “real.”

Plus I think many people’s lives are still (relatively) uninterrupted by climate change at this point. Even when lives are temporarily disrupted by changing weather patterns, it often doesn’t last long enough for it to have a lasting impact on (some) people’s thinking and behaviour.

So not enough people are motivated to act now as they can lack foresight. For some, i feel immediate convenience or “pleasure” outweighs all...plus there are others who have good intentions but sadly then get overwhelmed/frightened, and end up burying their heads in the sand instead.

Thanks for reading 🙂

Pepper

[Birdy77]

Hi everyone 😊

☀️ Because here we are, over here on the "shiny side" on a sparkling Sunday morning: I feel compelled to just take part of what you, Unbeliever, said yesterday, & challenge it.

You said that no matter all the things you have done all your life to try to reduce the harm being inflicted by humankind on the planet, that all your efforts are completely worthless. And that what the rest of humankind does "(erases) any possible good feelings (you) could derive from having done any of it".

I completely understand your pain, I honestly, honestly (honestly) do. I feel that pain on a daily basis. I know what you mean when you say this. I know one person's actions can't make up for a thousand or a million or a billion of other people's actions.

But I truly don't believe that our actions are meaningless.

When you walk along the beach & are snickered at collecting rubbish; or when Monkey_Magic swims out fully clothed to pull a plastic bag out the ocean: you may not be saving the planet, but you are making a difference.

You made a difference to the seagull who didn't ingest part of that chip packet & feed it to her babies. Monkey_Magic made a difference to the seaturtle that didn't mistake that grocery bag for a jelly fish & eat it for lunch. I probably made a difference to a lizard or sparrow when I crawled along the side of a busy highway picking up 1-by-1, hundreds of polystyrene bean-bag balls that had been spilled.

We do make a difference. Every decision every single one of us makes has an impact on something, somewhere even if it doesn't feel like it.

To believe otherwise, or to encourage others to believe otherwise I think is dangerous as it can breed defeatism & an attitude of "why bother doing anything at all then?" That frightens me.

There is a quote I love by Thich Nhat Hanh:

My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground on which I stand.

None of our actions are free of consequence. Not one. Whether those consequences are positive or negative depend on our choices and our actions, but nothing we do is neutral.

Although you can't make up the shortfall of billions of others and rescue the planet, you can stand confidently (albeit with immense sadness) on the solid ground of your actions.

I know i sound extremely simplistic in this post, i get that & I'm tempted to apologise.

But I want there to be hope on this fresh Sunday morning in which we are alive.

🌻birdy

[Unbeliever]

I should probably re-state... the "snickering girls" thing is something I remember from my teenage years. This is not something that has happened to me in quite some time.

I guess what I meant was that I don't derive any good feelings from these things I have done/or continue to do. That little "burst of dopamine" doesn't come.

I mean... it's not like I feel I deserve a "pat on the back" when I'm looking out the train window at all those people driving past in their cars. Or I raise my nose in some kind of superior snobbery at the supermarket as I pack my "home brought" fabric bags with groceries... it just doesn't work like that. I mean, I was doing this long before the "plastic bag movement" was in public knowledge... the average person had no comprehension of why I would be doing these weird things. And if they ever asked... trying to explain it didn't help.

So many things have just become my routine. Like for example... stopping to pick up rubberbands and hairbands whenever I see them on the street, snap them into sections and put them in the bin... because I know birds line their nests with them and they can bind and cripple and sever baby birds feet as they grow into adults (you see the results of this in cities all the time). This I just do automatically, but it rarely has gone down well in front of women while still in the early stages of dating (It comes across as understandably weird, especially if it's like 3 times in a 100 metre stretch).

I used to carry a shortened surgical razor in my wallet, just in case I was lucky enough to catch a "foot bound" bird (usually a pigeon) in the city so I could cut off the rubberbands and string from its feet that had crippled it for its entire life... while people walking past would comment "they're flying rats... snap its neck".

*(never owning a car is not exactly conducive to successful dating either... not at any age above 16. Chuck in the bonus of not wanting kids due to planetary over-population and the reasons why I have been single for the last 15 years is not exactly rocket science. I mean, even hippies in the 70's drove vans).

Anyway, these things don't make me feel better as a person... they are just "what I do"... this is just my life. If "warm fuzzies" was my only motivation... I wouldn't do it.

I do it because I know it is right and because the alternatives are unacceptable to me. I literally CAN'T contribute.

But there are consequences to being this way... and few facilitate personal happiness.