depression or sadness? being positive or being realistic?

[AlexDeLoser]

Hey everyone,

I just wanted some input on my thoughts on the topics of mental health. First i'd like to say- its probably a little ironic that I'm asking for objective answers when this is a support network, but anyway.

Is it really depression that a lot of us are feeling? Being intellectually impaired, having no talent, no friends or even good relationships with family. I mean, i'm not in denial that depression exist, and from my understanding, they are chemical/hormonal imbalances in the brain making you predisposed to be more likely sad. Regardless, I don't believe an absence of being predisposed to being sad will make you not sad if you're life has no reason for happiness.

Is it really being negative, or being realistic? I've heard almost everyone say, or at least imply ''you can't be bad at everything; you've got to be good at something. there is a place in the world for everyone!''. I can't even argue with this, logic is completely thrown out of the window. People want to believe in world of equity, believing that everyone has a place in the world, but is that really true? Do starving children in developing countries have a place in this world?And, as these injustices exists in other places of the world, why does it seem that they can't exist in developed societies? It's almost like- because of the fact you're living in a developed country, you're expected to be intelligent, good at things and meet standards and social expectations.

Sorry everyone, I don't intend to sound mean or bad or anything like that. I'm just really tired of people being illogical and evasive. I'm the type of person who'd rather acknowledge my problems first, then see what I can do from there as appose to deny them as problems. Furthermore, I hope someone responds to this. Thanks everyone for at least reading to this point 🙂

[Here_I_am]

Hello Alex,

Some rather philosophical thoughts on offer here! 🙂

The first thing that stood out for me is the correlation you make between depression and sadness, and furthermore to underachievement socially in relationships through to self efficacy. It's fair to say that their is no such correlation, and the majority of people with depression achieve success to rather high standards; it is the minority that fit the category of socially maligned, maladaptive relationships, unskilled work history, and so on. I would also suggest that depression/mental health is but one factor that has lead to this in the life of many people, and a holistic assessment would uncover many other factors that contribute to a world that genuinely lacks this equity you speak of. I won't rattle off a list of 'famous people that live with depression and anxiety', however it is evident in the literature we have regarding depression that 'sadness' per se is not a pervasive aspect of depression; nor is inability.

Many of the aspects that keep a person down in life are just as readily attributable to environmental factors. For instance, a person may very well have depression, however if they also lived in a home that was conducive of trauma (which may be abuse, violence, drug and/or alcohol misuse, financial distress, etc.), it is likely they didn't get the most out of their education and as such may struggle to find their place as an adult joining in on the 'own your own home' race well behind the start line (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5fbQ1-zps for an awesome visual on equity that doesn't even need to include mental health as a factor to make its point).

I agree that we first need to acknowledge the issue we have and then work from there to find a way forward. But I would hasten to add that for many people simply doing this shines a light on how far behind the pack they truly are, and depression (or more specifically mental health issues) are likely but one factor that causes them to be unfairly treated in a world that claims to want equity but does all it can to make sure those who 'don't fit the mould' of contemporary neatness feel like they don't fit.

If that doesn't promote depression (not sadness) in the life of someone who is already very aware of their warts and inadequacies, then I don't know what will. 😞

[romantic_thi3f]

Hi AlexDeLoser,

Welcome to the forums and thank you for your very thought provoking post. I'm glad that you opened up this discussion - I have no doubt that even though this is the first post I've seen like yours, lots of people have shared these thoughts.

It seems like there's a couple of things you've mentioned in your post; the depression or sadness, and then the positive or the realistic - and I think they're quite different so I'm going to treat them as such.

With predispositions I'm guessing here that you're talking about genetics? My belief here is that genetics loads the gun but then the environment pulls the trigger. While if parents have depression their children is likely to have depression too, it's not an absolute. Like Here I am mentioned, there's so many factors in between - like trauma, but probably also family life, finances, access to healthcare/education...

and as to the second part, my thoughts are that there's something in between. It is unfair and unjust that there are starving children in this world or that people are disadvantaged through no fault of their own. At the same time though, we are probably not bad at everything - because it is such a black and white statement, and we will never try everything to know if we are in fact good or bad at it.

There's a concept I learned recently called 'fake positivity' or 'toxic positivity', which talks about where positivity can be unhelpful, unproductive and unrealistic. This to me is probably the difference between 'Everyone can be happy!' 'Everyone has a place in the world!' to 'I can find my own place in the world' or 'I deserve to be happy too'.

I hope that I've been on the right track with my response here. Thanks again for starting this interesting conversation and I look forward to hearing your replies or what other people have to say too.

RT

[AlexDeLoser]

Hey Here I am,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I agree that there isn't so much of a correlation between depression and sadness. In fact, what I was trying to say earlier is that- they are very different, and one might mistaken sadness for depression. And as you mentioned that people with depression usually great successes to high standards, I believe that aids my argument in differentiating common occurrences in depression and the minority category of people who live 'sad lives'.

From my understanding- depression is almost like a way of seeing things; as a sort of attitude, rather. Example- A death of a pet might have greater, or rather, worse mental effect on someone with depression. Regardless, even with someone without this predisposition, they'd still most likely be very sad with the situation. In that same way I feel that notion represents my life; I don't feel like I am depressed, if I'm honest. I won't go into it, but I can say there isn't much in my life in terms of reasons and things to be happy about, if anything, the opposite.

Thanks again. I hope I'm acutally making sense. 🙂

[AlexDeLoser]

Hey romantic_thi3f,

Thanks for the welcome and for getting back to me.

I am in agreement with your analogy (how a loaded gun represents depression, and how environmental factors can trigger the dangerous outcomes). If hypothetically- The gun represents depression or the predisposition to it, would it be the actual problem? furthermore, would it even be the issue at hand in my situation? I don't believe the presence of this genetic predisposition is the danger. As in the sense of the gun analogy- the actual presence of the gun isn't the danger, rather, the person who has it and their reasons to be compelled to use it. If that gun is kept with someone who won't ever use the gun, would that not be considered safe? I think so. I know that there is a huge flaw in that argument- associating a person who keeps the gun safe to a life that will never trigger depression. But regardless, I believe the principle still remains. And in saying that, It was what I was trying to convey earlier, Regardless of whether I have this predisposition, my life, quite literally- has so many things to trigger sadness, if not depression (which would be the same thing, but worse.

I'm almost confident that I'm not depressed. When I was in year 12, or actually, even now I would see how miserable people would be over achieve things I would only hope for. I could only imagine how they would feel in my situation with their predisposition. For some context- I did really terrible in year 12, didn't get an ATAR, Been doing nothing for 2 years, only working part-time at fast food. I'm not even concerned about going to uni, I just want to find something that I am even remotely interested in and/or good at.

Thanks again, I genuinely appreciate your intentions.

[romantic_thi3f]

Hi Alex,

I'm going to call you Alex instead of AlexDeLoser 🙂

Hm, I'm not sure that I fully understand you there with your comment about 'being compelled to use it', or 'won't ever use the gun'. Can you give me a bit of context? For me and the way I see things, when people have children - there is always a chance that their children may inherit the same mental illnesses as themselves. This gives them a predisposition. It's not about choice as it's completely out of their control and I have no doubt that nobody would ever wish to give their child a predisposition to any sort of illness.

This is a bit of a short answer but looking to get a bit more understanding first 🙂 and you're very welcome.

RT

[AlexDeLoser]

Hey RT,

I'm sorry for the confusion. As I look at it now, I'd chosen the wrong choice of words. I'll try to articulate better.

In the gun as depression analogy, the person compelled to use the gun, or how I should of said as 'a dangerous person'- is equivalent to a life that triggers your predisposition of depression (same things that make you sad). And in contrary, a person who will never use the gun is like- a life that will never trigger your depression (and again, it is flawed, as everyone goes through things; it's impossible not to ever have things in life that might trigger your depression, if you have the predisposition).

I'm in agreement that depression is most certainly not a choice, And neither is the environment that can effect you regardless of whether you have the predisposition or not.

I really don't want to not make sense again, but I think this analogy I'm about to state is probably more insightful- Certain ethnic groups of people are genetically predisposed to being tall. Even so, I doubt a person of that ethnic origin would be tall or even come close to average, if they were malnourished. Just like if you don't have a predisposition to depression, if you've got nothing to be happy about- you're going to be sad, regardless.

I really hope I'm expressing well enough. Thanks again. I look forward to hear from you. 🙂

[romantic_thi3f]

Hi Alex,

That's no worries! I'm glad that you're so persistent and patient working to help me understand! It sounds like a tricky concept and add that being on an internet forum!

Okay, so if I'm on the right track here, are you referring to an environment/set-up that somewhat creates the circumstances where people can be prone to depression (or mental illness)? Like a person being born in maybe a disadvantaged home (low income, substance abuse issues), issues with accessing education/healthcare, low social support, unemployed, lack of/hostile relationships..?

and then compare that to a maybe privileged or fortunate life perhaps, with kind and loving parents, economic security, fulfilling relationships?

Do you think I'm on the right track now with your thinking? 🙂

RT

[AlexDeLoser]

Hey RT,

Yeah, that pretty much is an accurate description of what I was trying to describe. The environmental factor which, in my opinion is the bigger factor.

I'm trying to put emphasis on how significant the effects of the environment are on your mental state. So much so that- even if you aren't prone to depression and/or other mental illnesses, how it would still have devastating effects on your mental health (obviously, even more so being prone to depression and/or other mental illnesses).

That was actually all I was trying to point out. I wasn't really trying to make the comparisons of how being prone to mental illness would compare in favourable versus undesirable environments; purely was just pointing out the effects of the environment regardless of predispositions.

I really I hope I made sense in this one. lol

Thanks, RT. 🙂

[romantic_thi3f]

Hi Alex,

That's all good! We got there in the end! 🙂

Absolutely! Environmental effects are one of the known recorded risk factors for depression. Since you seem quite interested you can read more here if you like (p4) - https://www.aihw.gov.au/getmedia/d2b1d779-b644-4015-8d17-13f2526d616f/nhpamh98-c02.pdf.aspx

I think too the other thing to think about here is resilience. If we were to look at different cultures they have totally different environments (and probably a lot of risk factors), yet there's a total sense of community and mindset that works as a 'protective factor'. So even if they were in these environments seemingly devastating for mental health, they may not struggle with it at all.

RT