The Significance of being "reasonable"

[white knight]

What is “reasonable”? If you have a mental illness and are actively mingling with other people be it work or socialising, you are likely to often trip up where your behaviour/reactions is seen as extreme.

For the stable out there we could easily be seen as unreasonable. These people largely don’t have or rarely have the emotion level we have. (I’m speaking broadly). Fragile emotions that are often in the high range has little room for negotiation in a calm relaxed approach. We seem to others as not being able to reason as emotion gets in the way and that's what they focus on. In defense however often the instigator isn’t reasonable in the first place. But does that justify being unreasonable ourselves? Probably not.

What do we lack? To be able to be reasonable? I’ve thought for some time about this. I have a friend, a reasonable friend meaning she seems to be calm and calculating even under stress. When she converses with others that are heated in their frame of mind, she doesn’t “lose it”. But what she has is something I don’t have- quick wit.

Having quick wit allows you to think quickly and evaluate the situation to your favour. There was a classic example of this recently. She borrowed a beach umbrella some months ago for the summer. After the hot weather ended she tried to return it and she’d purchased one herself. But her friend had gone on an overseas holiday. She tried a few weeks later, he had returned but went on another holiday. Nearly 9 months went by and I was there when he called in. He immediately accused her of keeping the umbrella for 9 months “way in excess of what I’d lend it to you” he snapped. Her reply was calm and collected. Firstly it is a beach umbrella, I don’t use beach umbrella’s in the winter. Secondly, you have been overseas on the two occasions I dropped by at your home. They both went to her shed and she produced the umbrella “take note of the cobwebs on it, it hasn’t moved for 6 months” she calmly exclaimed. Her friend apologised and left. Had I been her I would have argued and got upset. Her responses were measured and witty, thinking on her feet, not predetermined.

This form of thinking doesn’t come naturally for some but it is something we can work on. Staying calm, asking for some time to think about the situation, allowing others to get upset and waiting until they are calm….all contribute towards less emotion.

And that’s a good challenge if you want to be “reasonable” and less emotional.

Tony WK

[CMF]

WK

"...strong feelings of never being good enough..."  I totally agree.  My daughters father has had ongoing anxiety for about 2 years now.  I have my theories but he denies them all  he is a perfectionist, when I met him he used constantly yell at his mum because she drove him mad, nagging him about eating, not sleeping enough etc.  He freaked out when I found I was pregnant although he says he always wanted kids etc. he's a planner, has done nothing in his life because it's never the right time.  I think he is scared of failure, comitment  and responsibility. His mum is pretty full on at times, she used to nag him like crazy, he's in his 40's and its like she never let him grow up.  He used to verbally abuse her cos he couldn't take her nagging and yet he still lives at home and is now sick with anxiety  I'm waffling, I know, he drove me insane today.  We went for lunch with his family, he irritated our daughter all through lunch, we all told him to stop aggravating her but he says "no" she cries coz she doesn't get her way.  She is 2&1/2 for crying out loud, he purposely took toys off her cos they annoyed him, even though she was happy playing while she waited for her lunch. We arrived hour and a half late, I don't know why it took him over 2 hours to get ready so she was pretty hungry and everyone else had their food. He tells everyone don't give her bread or sugar then he gave her bread and an iced chocolate then wanted to put honey in her baby chino??? It was very hard to be "reasonable"  he was being ridiculous. I'm so depressed because of how he makes me feel about him.  Everyone is wrong, he is always right, even when he knows nothing about something, everyone is an idiot.

Anyway, my point is that I think circumstances during a persons upbringing can cause anxiety later on.  

Yeah I had a crappy day 😞

[white knight]

Hi CMF,

Whenever I hear about a somewhat narcissistic personality I run for the hills so to speak. My mother a true Borderline Personality Disorder fit, in its chronic form, was my prime example. But it is also in men, albeit lesser so.

I don't know if I've advised you to Google this but please do so. "Waif, queen,witch,hermit"  Read up a few articles about what the four characters are all about. It's based on the book "Walking on eggshells" by Dr Christine Lawson.

See if that fits your hubby. I'd be interested in your findings.

Tony WK

[CMF]

Thanks Tony WK, I will look into that. Just to clarify, he isn't my husband, probably a good thing. We had a great relationship which he destroyed- but that's in another post.  I always defend his actions, say he is a great caring person but I have many doubts now. I don't really know who he is.  I saw how he treated his mum and he's done it to me now too.  True colours always come out...

[CMF]

Hi WK,

well I read up on the info you gave me and he does fit with some of them  I just cannot work him out.  He loves deep conversation but he always has to be right, he starts yelling at his mum for no reason and blames her saying "I don't want to argue" but he is the only one arguing- about nothing. It's like He creates situations in his head and responds/reacts to it but it never actually happened.  He is very polite with others (I think we all are to some degree) but then turn to his "loved ones" and treats them like crap all in the same breath.  I am at the point where I am going to start questioning his actions even in front of his family.  I think they all see it but no one has ever said anything, they just let it go. He complained and carried on about the toys in the cafe that my daughter played with saying they were going in his food but he didn't order any food. The points made by yourself a HH really make sense.  ive gone off your topic a bit but it seems the right place to vent these concerns I have.  I saw a physiologist a few times when I was pregnant as my dr wanted to link me with someone over concerns I would have PND due to lack of support and verbal abuse from him but I found I wanted to go totals about his behaviour and why he is like that, what his behaviour means, is it a condition. 

Anyway, sorry for going off topic but thx for listening.  

[white knight]

Hi CMF,

Re: "He is very polite with others".  Could be a case of "familiarity breeds contempt which is in a lot of family's. Classic example was my ex wife's family. As teenagers all 5 of them could enter their home and tell their father about a crane toppling over down the street and he wouldn't believe them. But if the boy next door came in....different matter.  Maybe disrespect? Not all reactions are due to mental illness but his reactions to his family and you seems out of order IMO.

I'm pointing out the difficulty in us mere mortals separating mental illness symptoms to bad behaviour, odd behaviour, personality traits etc. Because it gets to the point whereby we have to rely on professionals like psychiatrists. When it gets to that stage you have a few challenges like - you have to get him to agree and you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink, he has to acknowledge that with so many people around him questioning his mental health that there could be something wrong that needs attention and the road down the path to medication/therapy and the like.

Finally, try to be cautious with in-laws. You depicted a witty person in your last post. Things he did that were not happening how he described them. I'd suggest you stick with this route. eg. if he described toys of things falling in food (and he hadn't ordered any) then a few words like "what were you eating"? Get him to fall into his own claim traps. Then he cant question you because you are only asking a common question. Instead of saying "but you weren't eating any food". That is a statement more like an attack upon him. Answer his claims with a question. It works for me.

I'm more concerned with the verbal abuse given to you. Blood family has a natural tie so they know to back off and keep him in their lives. They don't want to lose him.

I think you might need to consider a boundary. Your boundary. This is the line you draw in the sand where you will not endure his verbal tirades. I have mine. My lovely wife has always raised her voice when we disagree. Over time it rises so high it is no longer a disagreement - its an argument. So I've told her some time ago that its something I cant tolerate and cant see why adults cant disagree without yelling. She eventually saw my point and gradually its worked. Its bliss now. This yelling came from her ex that did the same. She only knows what she was taught so she is forgiven.

Take care.  Tony WK

[CMF]

WK thank you for your wise words and advice.  Just reading it gives me anxiety because of how right you are.  Disrespect for the family - yes. "Watch the In laws" - yes.  When I was pregnant and he turned his back on me his mother asked ME why I didn't want HIM around. When he told me I wasn't cut out for relationships and shouldn't hang out together and I stopped going around she said I wanted it kick him out.  Everything was my fault, they knew nothing of how he was treating me, Im Sure he wouldn't dare tell them as he is ashamed. When I did have a go at him at lunch (his dad also did for the same reasons) his mum just looked at me, his sister nodded in agreement with me but neither spoke up, just his dad did. He tells me they all consider me part of the family but I know Id never be part of the "inner circle"  I know they discuss me and my private business and my finances etc yet they don't tell me their personal business.  Also I can't tolerate his carry on with his family, I don't want to be a part of that anymore as I can no longer be "reasonable"  I've had enough so better not to put my self in that situation.  Just today he carried on about something stupid and when I questioned him he said I like to start arguments - if you don't agree with him you're starting an argument. 

back to your original topic, when I feel ready to burst at the seams at the slightest thing I now try to be conscious of how Im feeling and be aware that I could easily pounce for no reason.  When things get to me I try to let them go, not dwell on them, after all in a week, a month or six months they are going to be of no significance in most cases.  

Thanks again

cmf

[white knight]

Hi CMF

Yes, "reasonable" can include lots of actions and inactions. Inactions can include allowing time to "let the waves settle"....then as you elude, its all forgotten about.

One strategy I've always use to defend myself over people overstepping their "place" is to reverse the situation. A mother in law asks a question about how much money you've save to buy a house? clearly making you feel uncomfortable and placing the action of saving totally upon you. You say "I'll tell you how much I've save for a house when you tell me whats in your will". Or- "I'll tell you how much I've save for a house when you tell me how much money you have saved over the last 5 years". And so on. If they get upset and argumentive don't be worried, simply say "well its fair, you have as much right to my personal information as I do to yours.".

This takes some practice. In-laws often clearly over step the mark.

I have a mother in law. I know what is in her will. I know it is an unfair will toward my wife- her caring daughter that is nursing her at the moment post a brain operation. Yet it is clearly not my place to discuss it.

You've acknowledged that your in laws don't have you in their inner circle and you've tried hard to be in there. I think it is important to say here now that you have a lot of emphasis on his family. Yet, you didn't marry them, you married your husband only. Perhaps a drift from them is in order. You know you'll never be totally accepted. And if asked why they haven't seen you very much your answer could be "well, I love your son/brother very much, and he is your blood family. I'll see you guys from time to time". See how that answer is said? It is saying you will continue to see them so they cant object. You also leave the door open to get closer if they began to see what you are putting up with.

As said before, we often don't know what words/actions/reactions are played out due to mental illness or anger etc. But I have learned that either way there is a limit of toleration one can put up with in any relationship. Having mental illness issues/narcissism/bad attitudes/in-law pressures etc there comes a point when you will know you are in a relationship that wont work out without serious change.

There is a saying that applies to your in-laws -"I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations". Concentrate on your marriage not his family. Remain friends with them but at arms length.

Tony WK