Religion and Depression, Anxiety, &c.

[Damien]

Hello.

I have noticed on a few of beyondblue's Facebook posts in particular that there are occasional Bible verses posted as if the answer to mental illness is found in religion.  In other places I have noticed that people who have a religious faith have had their "reason not to feel hopelessness" abused by people who don't like religion at all.

I am interested in this stream and wonder what people's experiences of this sort of thing is.  Does Christianity (and other religions) offer anything positive to the way we feel as Anxious and Depressed people, (and I experience GAD, Depression, and Social Phobia), or is religion just another reason for people to bully us when we're down because we "don't have enough faith" or we're "sick because we're superstitious"?

Please don't Bible-bash or bully me with your atheism.  If however you have been Bible-bashed or put down for being religious I'd love to know how this has affected you as a person with Depression or Anxiety.

Thanks,

Damien.

[geoff]

dear Damien, well I won't bible bash you, it's people choose whether they believe in a faith or whether they don't.

I will try and look at this at a different angle, as I'm not religious, but what happens to those that have no faith and how are they treated by the people who do have a faith.

My ex is catholic, but she had PND with our second child, although she was not into going to church every sunday then, but now she does, and I wonder if she is doing this to connect with the god she believes exists, but then this god seems to be referred to as 'he', and I don't believe that I have heard of anyone calling this god a 'she', which is curious, and maybe those who are religious have an explanation for this.

When she had PND I can't remember her saying that 'god' would help her through her depression, and she over came this by herself with help.

Now she says that god is looking after me and that he has guided me through this depression, however 20 odd years of depression hasn't convinced me one bit.

If she wants to believe this then she is entitled to do so, however I can't agree with her. Geoff.

[Vegetarian Marshmallow]

Quoting the bible is fine.  Of course there's lots of pedestrian, wrong, and nonsensical stuff in the bible, which religious people sometimes seem to think is more profound than it really is simply because it comes from the bible (you get this from any fan of anything - teenage girls will post quotes from their favourite singer like "I like cheese sandwiches.  Sometimes, I eat them for lunch.", thinking it's an amazing revelation), but if it's a good quote, it might have a positive effect.  I quote lots of places.  TV shows, movies, books, whatever.  I'm sure I must've quoted the bible once or twice.  Quotes are nice.

Religion hasn't had much effect on me.  I was definitively an atheist by the age of about 13, slightly before any inkling of depression.  I never considered "turning to God" for refuge from anything.  I just don't believe any religion is real, so I don't have the option of turning to it.

I haven't really been bullied about being an atheist.  It just tends to be a mutual sort of "You don't believe in God?  How strange!" / "You believe in God?  How strange!" thing.  There was a kind of douchey guy on a forum once, who was like "All you atheists are the same!  No morals, no sense of the beauty of the universe, blah blah blah.".  I wasn't in any kind of vulnerable headspace to particularly care about such sentiments, but his vitriol was there, nonetheless.

Preachy religious types can be annoying but I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt that their heart is in the right place and they're just trying to save me from hell, rather than forcing their beliefs on me.

It'd probably be pretty dumb to start deriding religion to a depressed person who's finding it comforting, unless perhaps it's also contributing to their depression somehow.

I think religion can certainly offer comfort to people in various forms of suffering, though I think there are better alternatives, and I would be happier to see people turn to something less exploitable ("Give us your money, we need a new fancy church!", "God says this is the correct way to live, so you must live this way!").

[Damien]

Hello Geoff and Rodentdron, thanks for responding.

I find it interesting how as a Christian (there, I've said it) how much this fact about me seems to make a difference to the people I speak to about Anxiety and Depression.  Most people, the vast majority, are fine with it and don't see any issue.  "What difference does it make?" is their response if they even think to comment.

I've not had any non-believers make negative comment to me, although I am aware of others whose stories include their being hassled for being "deranged anyway" or "superstitious" as if their beliefs are somehow the cause or a contributing factor to their biological or situational Depressive Illnesses.  Of course I think this to be unfair as commentary, but as I say I know of it only third-hand.

What I have come across is Christians using Bible verses or their own interpretations of what "faith" means to be demeaning toward Mental Illness, although usually in the absence of their actually knowing anyone who struggles in this way.  Yes there are passages in the Bible that speak of Jesus and faith in Jesus being a source of strength and hope, and as a believer I use these "promises" as part of my meditation or as script for my CBT self-talk.  But I do not hold at all to the idea that a Christian who is experiencing a Mental Illness or Mental Health Disorder is somehow less of a woman or man of faith, or is "a sinner" just because they are sick.

Sadly it seems that what might be a source of great strength, (personal faith and spirituality), and support (your local church), have the capacity to become something others can turn against you and a place where stigma is at its most disparaging.

Of course churches (local congregations) and "The Church" (the institution) can be the cause of issues in life, examples of this are well  known through the news.  Rodentdron you mentioned a few more and you are correct. These are reasonable observations about Christianity in the 20/21 centuries, but not actually my point this time.

What I am hoping to do is to remind believers of all sorts, (not just Christians, but that's what I know most about), to be people of compassion and patience and not people of intolerance or judgementalism.  I ask out of genuine desire to understand and show respect, for others' beliefs and experiences.

I guess the other thing is to see if other people are thinking like I am or whether, as a GAD and Social Phobia person myself I've just found a random hobby-horse which is actually just me and no-one else is really interested.  I'm happy enough if it is "just me", but it doesn't hurt to ask.

🙂

[The_Real_David_Charles]

Dear Damien,

I remember the old BB site having a lot of anxiety about having a post on religion.  Pre-empting the discussion with "we better not go there" type moments.  When the post finally came through (from Kiara Tiara who sadly didn't last more than a couple of weeks on this new system - great loss in my opinion) it seemed to lack the punch and diversiveness that everyone expected.   It was actually quite disappointing.  A bit like Carbon Tax.  Not much meaning was extracted.

If you count me as a Christian it would be in the lapsed sense.   There seems to be a "fall from grace" at the point the Devil takes form.  Prayer is often described as being done "for" someone under attack from the forces of Evil.  Uplifting, Open and Honest but then if a Christian tells someone "I'm praying for you" it can lead to discomfort and resentment.  "Why do you think you are better than me ?" kind of thing.   Probably not given a good rap by Jehovah's Witnesses bashing on your door at 9am on a casual Sunday morning.  Uninvited.   Are these methodical and organised conversion visits helping the Jehovah Witness or the "sinner" ?   Strange that such door knocking is considered OK but there is a mandate that a Jehoval Witness must not canvass his own neighbours.  Double standard ?    You bet.

I've seen and read a few of your posts and you are always on the money (no, you didn't steal the collection box).   Just looking at Christianity and all it's humbling sacrifice would make one believe in a greater good.   It's long term.  Maybe the fact that Christians pit themselves against the Devil is what makes them a target for things like depression, anxiety and other medical problems like cancer, etc.   Damien, I've noticed that as soon as a position is taken in society it almost invites the opposite position to challenge it.  Being a Christian doesn't molly coddle you against the sins of the world.  It might bring fantastic community support and friends that will bake you a quiche if you end up in a psych ward but it's never about you.    The overall vibe has a bit of heart.   And anything with a bit of heart quickly gets bashed (your term) or trampled on.

My favourite verse from the Bible is "Jesus wept".   Born an outsider, hailed as The Messiah, all those miracles, proverbs and healings, finally crucified for being a public nuisance, resurrected, suffer the indignity of the disciple Thomas sticking his finger through a nail hole on his hand to "prove" it all did happen.............if BB had been around at the time I think Jesus would have posted one hell of an entry.   But then his complaints were minimal and he accepted his destiny.

It's a twist of psychological projection that some people "bash" Christians.   You'd think Jesus took enough of a "bashing" for the world already.  Just saying.

Adios, David.

PS  Seriously, did you take the collection box ?   Lol.

[Damien]

Hello David.

Yes having asked the question here I then did a word search and found Kiara’s posts, and the answers given by you and the gentlemen in the above conversation.  Shame it did not continue, but yes this system can be frustrating which is ironic given the theme of the forum.

My point in raising God’s (or the gods’) profile is, as you have observed, not to Bible-bash but to ask the question of whether spirituality is a relevant source of strength, at least for the religious, and thus a place where psychology and care might be interested to look.  I have never been the sort of Christian to swear off medicine or to throw away my crutches before the miraculous restoration of my legs “in faith”, and you will have seen that I always advise towards GPs.  (After all, if you can get a doctor to attest to your miracle then how cool is that?  Hehehe.)

I see prayer as a pastoral activity, a sharing and a discussion and should never be an imposition.  I don’t offer prayer to others unless I know they will say yes, and even then I go on to ask, “shall I pray with you now or shall I just mention you later when I am praying?”  And yes, “pray with” rather than “pray for”.  This does not mean that the other person needs to talk as well, but it does mean it is a joint effort of being in God’s presence rather than me “doing unto” some random cripple in the hope of racking up Double Frequent Martyr Points.

Of course as well as seeing “medicine” as taking an interest in the spiritual, I’d love to see more of “religion” taking an interest in “psychology”.  Christians and other religious types will experience mental illness if they are human.  Perhaps a strong belief in a strong God will provide assurances and hope in life, even if there are no gods the mental placebo should be amazing, but faith in God does not stop a religious person from having low levels of serotonin as much as it does low levels of insulin or testosterone or anything else.  We can have special cakes for the diabetics at morning tea, and special wafers so gluten-intolerant types can celebrate Eucharist, but when it comes to mental stuff the churches go all exorcist.  Why so?

Those who quote the Bible passages where God offers strength and hope remind us of great promises, but from the context of the post (rather than the verses) these words read as condemnation.  “God offers peace, so if you’re disturbed then you’re a sinner.”  Bullshit man!  At the same time there are the anti-theists, not just atheist or non-religious but people who actively want to eradicate (Christian) religion who get on about superstition being a form of weakness in itself, and of course the whole (true) story that religion and religious people can cause mental illnesses through abuse.

It is for this reason that I didn’t continue my conversation with Sarah (sare_anxiety).  She said God was telling her she was useless, I said God doesn’t say that.  She said she understood that the voices she heard were lying and that she’s not in danger.  That’s enough for me!  There was no need for me to try to convert her back to Christianity, (she said she’s left), my point is no “conversion” but “conversation”.  I counter bad spiritual advice voices with good spiritual advice.  She didn’t need evangelism, but she just as much didn’t need “there’s no such thing as God so HTFU”.  So often it seems those are the only two offerings made to spiritual people with emotional struggles.

Thanks for the support David, sorry it took so long to reply, it’s been “one of those days” for about nine weeks now.  😉

Damien.

PS.  No the collection box was not me, although I did steal the cookie from the cookie jar...

[The_Real_David_Charles]

Dear Damien, cookie eater and decent guy,

Although I paint my partner/wife as a bit of a militant dictator in terms of "allowing" me on the internet (lest I become violently manic and overthrow the Government) she is much more in tune with religion than me to the point of regular attendance, Healing Ministry and having a fairly universal grasp on society rather than "where's my beer ?".  One time at band camp, no, one time I went to a Healing Ministry and when the time came to offer some prayer for my mental disability I suddenly declined.  Like you said it's only a belief system if it works for you.   The only psychological explanation I can offer is that I didn't want another imposition (in the form of prayer) on an existing imposition (in the form of bipolar).  Add in the Spanish Inquisition and we are all on the HIgh Seas in this boat people often refer to.  Although sometimes we're all on a roller coaster too (as others describe).  I just thought we were all sick.   You must be sick of this paragraph by now so let's move on.  In the old BB site there was no paragraphic opportunities.  Just endless text.

On another occasion I was coming out of a 9 month manic admission and felt a bit of spiritual support would help.   I went to the Healing service and sat at the back so as not to appear too keen.   Half way through the first hymn I fell asleep, no, I mean I felt an evil cloud over me.  Sorry, must tell the story straight.  No more mucking around.   Darkness gripped me midway through the first hymn.

An old lady in the row infront (that later was identified as not being known by anyone) suddenly confronted me with haughty laughter, rolling her eyes till they stuck on the top, frothing at the mouth and some Ancient script spieled out with utter evil and dark menace.   Although I was in a line of 15 and the small church was holding about 100 all this behaviour was directed at me.   After this lady was bustled out the Priest made a declaration that "This place is a sanctuary for those that seek the Lord and there is no place for the Devil inside these walls" and everyone cheered.   The service continued but I've got to admit I was a bit shaken.   I recovered enough for tea and biscuits and enjoyed hero status.

The same evilness surrounds me on nights when my wife goes to Bible Study.  Seriously, by the time she returns I have practically got the weapon of self harm and attempted suicide.   Kind of a battle of Good vs Evil.  But then I always figure if I can take such attacks at least the Devil won't go for my children.   Or maybe my kids just have a stronger faith.   It's quite disturbing nevertheless.

If mental illness is the Devil's work then he's pretty good at it.   The slightest disappointment can lead to suicide.  The slightest hiccup in marriage can lead to divorce.   All it takes is one chink in the armour (or spiritual armour).    I always thought I had it bad enough with 26 yrs bipolar and a family that never accepted my wife (but adore the grandchildren !).    3 medical retirements.   I mean, maybe the Devil is just saying "Stay down - don't even think of praying or seeking The Lord's help to get better or have a better quality of life".  It's quite a learning curve.

Your techie skills in finding the other post are admirable.   From memory that religious post fizzled out too quickly.  Maybe this thread will have a bit more interest if people seek another level of understanding. and forgiveness.

Adios, David.

PS   My wife said that as Jesus has already died for us we don't have to suffer with separate burdens anymore.  In short, don't sweat the small stuff.    This response may be too way out, too long and too broody but so are parts of the Bible.

[Vegetarian Marshmallow]

Damien said:

What I have come across is Christians using Bible verses or their own interpretations of what "faith" means to be demeaning toward Mental Illness, although usually in the absence of their actually knowing anyone who struggles in this way.

I would be curious as to which came into the person's life first - their intolerance or the religious doctrine i.e. did the doctrine lead them to intolerance, or did their intolerance lead them to interpret the doctrine in a way that agrees with their pre-existing beliefs?  I tend to assume the latter - all the world's a mirror.  I think these are just plain dumb people.  You get them everywhere.  A religious community is no more immune to them than any other social circle.  I imagine their nincompoopery also exhibits itself in aspects of their lives other than religion.  I'm not surprised it'd be more prevalent in people who have no actual experience in the matter, because if they did, their love for their afflicted comrades would stand a chance of overpowering their dipstickitude.

[Vegetarian Marshmallow]

Damien said:

We can have special cakes for the diabetics at morning tea, and special wafers so gluten-intolerant types can celebrate Eucharist, but when it comes to mental stuff the churches go all exorcist.  Why so?

Well, anything affecting the mind has implications for the notion of a soul.  You know, what happens to a person's soul when they undergo a corpus callosotomy or develop Alzheimer's?

But I think this is also somewhat present in society at large just because the physical is more.. tangible.  I think in the public understanding, the body (excusing the brain, which houses the mind) is "solved". We can more easily think of our bodies deterministically, as machines, because we can see them, touch them.  Not so with the mind.

[Damien]

Unclaimed Cabbage.

How sad!  I would claim you, you seem nice. 🙂

I've been doing all my posting over at blueVoices for a while now, but since religion has come up as a new comment I thought you (and Geoff and Real David) might be interested in this excerpt from my blog.

http://damienwrites.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/christian-pastoral-care-for-depressed-people/

😄