Straight men in gay bars

[justinok]

So this is a discussion I came across on Reddit...it's kinda too long for here so I've tried to keep in the main points. For those non gay people who think it's 'trendy' to go to a gay bar, or like to pat themselves on the back for doing it, maybe think twice...

One thing you have to consider is that if you're straight, you have the luxury of being able to safely assume everyone around you is straight unless someone indicates otherwise. Gay people don't have the equivalent luxury. 

Keep in mind that if you're a straight person going to a gay bar, you make it harder for the LGB patrons to find potential partners. After all, if enough straight people go to a gay bar, it's no longer a gay bar, and the local gays/lesbians may have no where they can safely hit on others of the same sex. 

Consider a gay guy who goes on a ski trip in a group of 160 people. Educated estimates for LGBT people are about 5% of the population, so that means probably about 8 people in the group are gay or bi. Now image that you wanted to do what straight people often do, meet someone, hang out, maybe even have some sexy-time. Half of those 8 will be women, and only half will be single. So that brings it down to 2 single gay guys including yourself in the entire group.

The odds are astronomically stacked against you and the other single gay guy meeting each other and knowing that each other are gay. After all, there is no magical way of determining which of the 159 others is gay, and there are often severe penalties for guessing if someone is gay. On top of all that, you have all the typical issues with finding a partner that straight people face. So even if you manage to identify the one other single gay gay, you very well might not be each other's type.

On the other hand, if you're straight, all these extra barriers are removed. Although they might not be interested in you for other reasons, you can safely assume that others are attracted to the opposite-sex.

Statistics show that the majority of straight people meet their SO randomly (friends of friends, work, etc.), which works because straight people have the luxury of being able to assume that each other are straight. 

...I don't think it's intrinsically wrong for a straight person to go to a gay bar. But unless the straight person is going as a wingman/woman for his/her LGB friend, I think it would be very inconsiderate to not at least seriously think about going somewhere first."

[Gruffudd]

Hi there Sherie and Paul,

I think the thing to think about when entering a minority space is your purpose for being there. There is a difference between being invited by gay friends into a space and going there on a hens night. 

The cafe thread is a place for more of a light hearted discussion with a LGBTI theme, there is a reason for you to join in like you have been and what you have added has been welcome. In other threads you are welcome too, there are sensitivities in our community and people will try to explain when something is upsetting or even offensive from a LGBTI perspective (I think that it is generous when people do that because they are trying to nurture and include you rather then letting you continue upsetting without knowing that you are) Have you read "to kill a mocking bird"? I think it is like that, we learn through walking a mile in someone else's shoes. I haven't quite mastered that skill myself but will keep trying. 

Rob.

[Guest_5218]

Thats fine Rob.  Not a problem.  I accept all that you have said.

Although I should point out that I am not a particularly social person, and have never been on a 'hens night' in my life.  And if I ever did, I strongly suspect that it wouldnt be to a gay bar.  ( - :

I accept that I have inadvertently invaded your space by my comments. But dont fret I wont do it again.

I am not offended or hurt by any of this, so dont worry about that.  

However I am, I think, just a little confused?

Sherie xx

[Gruffudd]

So I was watching this debate about trans identity on news 24. It was just a little difficult at times partly because I kind of could see the point both sides were trying to make. There was one part in particular and it went to this idea of space. One on the feminist side described a university womens event cup cake day where the trans women were asked not to take part. They protested and said they felt like they were being excluded, this was seen as being an example of transwomen making assumptions based in part on their male privilege and them being unreasonable as it was the only thing they were excluded from. Later a transman on the other side if the panel noted in a quiet almost defeated tone (the one I use when I speak a personal truth that I know will be dismissed by the other person) that until transwomen and transmen were accepted as being women and men then there would be no level playing field. There are plenty of spaces these days where GLBTI people are 'mostly' accepted, there are very few where it is unconditional, and it is that unconditional thing that gets me going... I think we need a space where there is unconditional acceptance. 

[white knight]

Hi justinok

What a great thread. While reading your original post, my mind went into the equality mode. All places for all people. By the end of reading it, my view has totally changed.

Modern ways of meeting anyone for a potential partner are now limited compared to say 50 years ago or more, when old time dancing was common. So I wish you well and thankyou from this straight guy that respects gay people and all others. You've educated me.

Tony WK

[justinok]

On Rob's post, this is where I think a lot of people are upset about the profile that Caitlyn Jenner has. She has lived most of her life as a privileged, rich, white male athlete and that is fuel to the fire for people who don't understand trans issues and want to map her life onto the life of anyone who doesn't fit into the male/female box.  There's a lot of othering that goes on, even within our own communities, and some of us don't know where we are supposed to fit.  Case in point, watch what happens when you tell people - even other gay men - that you're poz.

[Gruffudd]

There appears to be a lot that I don't understand about the negative reactions to trans people. I happen to find Caitlyn Jenner to be personable and interesting. She seems far more genuine now that she isn't trying to put on so much of that front to the world (and I know I have been there). I think I am just happy to see her happy. 

The issue of othering in our own community is a huge one. Like the fear that comes along when people disclose their HIV status - we know the risks of transmission, and it is not like there is a risk in respect or friendship - the worst thing that might happen is that you enjoy yourself with a new friend, and even further... current medication means that it could be safer being with a positive person managing their health then someone who doesn't know their HIV status (there is plenty of information out there on that). I find those negative reactions a bit hard to handle they remind me of the 1980's. There was a lot of vicious stuff about bi people there for a long time, it falls into the same. There is this dichotomy sometimes of being either invisible or treated as an other. 

My answer is two things. I challenge myself to live the change, and to be looking for the good, connection, and friendship regardless of my initial reaction (which for straight people might sometimes be negative). The other part is to have the courage speak up knowing that sometimes people can not because of the way they are treated. I speak for myself and the world I want to live in where everyone has the right to their own voice and to do the same. Anyone who wants to join me on these two things is a bit of a hero in my eyes.

[Paul]

Rob, I'm right there with you. If one were to look at my rants on facebook, I clearly give no tosses as to who I offend when I talk about rights for our community, tolerance, removal of stereotyping and cats.

P

[blondguy]

Hi Justinok

I just caught back up with your great thread. I would like to apologize for the outdated terminology I used in my prior post "choice of lifestyle and sexuality" I meant no offense whatsoever and I didnt know that my post was 'out of line' in anyway.

I still have my close gay friends that I have known/respect since I was in the fashion industry a long time ago and was ignorant of the 'correct' way to express myself. I am not well versed in the politically correct way to express myself and will make a concerted effort to do so. I do hope you can understand the environment my gay friends/managers/myself had in the late '70's with homophobia I would appreciate it...It was very difficult for us to socialize, for all of us.

Thankyou Just and Paul for your understanding

Kind Thoughts for You

Paul