Female in a hetero marriage, asexual and in love with same sex friend

[SH-2600]

I need to talk and get this all out of my head. I have been in a hetero relationship for 29 years and have known nothing else. I loved my husband but have never been in love. I have always thought of myself as being close to asexual, but strongly felt that this was something I needed to fix, that “normal” people want to have sex. I require a close intimate emotional connection to even consider physical/sexual intimacy. My husband and I have always managed this quite well, and although our relationship is not as conventional as some, we definitely had a good close partnership up until the last 2-3 years. We have 2 children in their late teens. This year, things seem to have shifted a lot. We have drifted from each other a bit and our friendship that underpinned our relationship has started to erode. He is struggling with work, life, sense of purpose and says he is unhappy and lonely. Adding to this, I am now questioning my sexual identity again. There is a woman who is the only woman I have ever had romantic thoughts about. She has been in and out of my life over the years, for a range of reasons to do with both of us, mental health issues, distance, readiness for emotional intimacy etc. this year however, after the death of a very close friend of mine, she has come back into my life and we have grown incredibly close. We saw each other recently for the first time in 6 years. We are both now ready for an emotionally intimate friendship and we spent 3 days together talking and getting closer. I am in love with her. She loves me very deeply but it is entirely platonic from her perspective. She is married to a man who has taken a significant amount of her mental health from her and from her kids, but she loves him and will never leave him. She seems to have flicked a switch in me and I know for sure that I want to be with her, but that is not something that will ever happen. I also have my primary relationship with my husband that is falling apart. I am feeling overwhelmed since coming home from the time with my friend, everything is so pale in comparison to being with her. Rightly though, she has switched her focus back to her life, and I am finding that incredibly difficult. I am also wondering if this year is a year for any big decisions because it has been a shocker on all levels. I am afraid to run from the life that my husband and I have built and I am afraid of continuing to deny myself and who I am. I am struggling. SH

[SH-2600]

Hello Timshel

I am so bloody thankful that I decided to come to these forums. The support and care is amazing and it has also brought me back from an overwhelming sense that my life was careening out of my control. I feel so fortunate to have found you here, Timshel. I feel connected to you in so many ways.

I haven’t read East of Eden, but have now added it to my list. I have read a couple of other Steinbeck novels but a long time ago, now. The concept of timshel sounds like anti-regret, the perfect opposite of regret, the antidote to it. I really like the concept that we get to change, get to reinvent, and get to choose. To me that is uplifting, a relief even. We can’t help but do better.

I have listened to the song again tonight too. It definitely has more meaning now for me. Your words always stay with me. I think people do better when we feel we have others close, holding our hand, metaphorically or literally, and standing with us. I am glad that your experience here has helped you too. The universe may or may not be involved (I still think probably not), but we are so fortunate. The more I think about how things work out, the more I believe that having an openness to others and some willingness to be vulnerable, actually invites like minded people in, or at least helps you to see and recognise each other when you come into each other’s orbit. It opens us up to experiences of connectedness and meaning.

Timshel, you are not alone.

[Timshel]

SH, I would previously have thought of Timshel as perhaps being ‘regret with purpose’ or even ‘regret with attitude’. But you describing it as being a form of ‘anti-regret’ sounds edgier. More badass even?! You know what I think? I think you are, in fact, a closeted badass! No actually, I’ll go one better. I can’t believe I am actually going to ask this but, SH, have you ever considered the possibility you might be ‘badass liquid’? I’m so sorry. You poor thing, by the time I’m finished with you, you won’t have a clue what or who you are. You’ll just be this big watery mess of a person that has to be carried around in a beaker...are you sure you wouldn’t be better on another thread? O hang on, this IS your thread isn’t it?!

Okay, enough waffle!! Serious face on! How are you after your last counselling session? We see the counsellor and the chihuahua tomorrow at 10am for 2 hours of fun and mayhem! I would say we have made progress in some ways in our relationship but I still need more by way of emotional intimacy. My husband loves the fun, the affection, the physical side of the relationship, as do I. He likes a healthy mix of banter and serious conversation, as do I. But as soon as things get too ‘personal’ like talking about feelings, thoughts, etc. he shuts down. It’s like talking or even thinking about the ‘real’ stuff requires too much effort, effort that could be best employed elsewhere like let’s say, cutting his toe nails, checking the oil in the car!? As soon as any conversation even looks like drifting into the more ‘personal’ domain, he looks for an ‘out’ which drives me absolutely bonkers! I don’t want ‘deep and meaningful’ all the time, but once in a way I need real open, honest dialogue, especially if something is bothering me. I need to be able to ask him questions and for him to make some effort in answering them. But a lot of times if I ask him why he did something or said something he’ll just come back with something like “Who knows?” and change the subject as quickly as possibly. I find that ‘lazy’. I want him to think about things a bit more and give me something ‘real’ to work with. I need that, especially now, at this point in our rebuilding process. I think this also ties in with his inability sometimes to take full responsibility for anything. He always likes to ‘share the blame around’, make me equally responsible for things I played no part in. If I can take responsibility for the things I did wrong, why can’t he? It #$&@* me off!

[Timshel]

I knew it. I just knew Aussie Rules was the code you wanted to hear. Geelong are a beautiful team to watch. I think they are real contenders for the premiership this year. I have always been a Swans supporter, my son too. My husband goes for the Blues. Now with my son in the Giants Academy, though, we have to share our allegiances around. Talking about allegiances, I was tempted to pretend I didn’t know my son as we accompanied his newly tattooed physique to his Club match at the weekend! It’s just on the underside of his left arm. I was trying to persuade him to wear a black armband and pretend someone had died (I mean, someone HAD died, somewhere, it wasn’t EXACTLY a lie), but he wasn’t having a bar of it. It is simply a tattoo of the number 23. Apparently it is the number of the jersey worn by a number of his sporting heroes, Buddy Franklin, Le Bron James and several more he mentioned. He thinks of it as a GOAT number (as in Greatest of All Time). When I first noticed it I asked him straight out if it was another tattoo and if so what was it of. He admitted it was and mumbled something about a goat?? My first thought was “why the hell would someone want a tattoo of a goat on their arm? “ Sometimes I struggle to keep up with the huge amount of acronyms around today.....some conversations just go way over my head! Anyway, the first tattoo is..well it’s... it’s sort of..o God, I don’t know what the hell it is! He doesn’t even seem to know what the hell it is! Some sort of arrow symbol thing. It’s on his chest, sort of over his breastbone, where his heart used to be!! It will definitely need covering up or improving on one day if he intends on keeping it! They are both small thankfully. Actually the 23 looks okay, well, as okay as a 23 can look. Don’t know if I’d let him anywhere near my body though!

I was born and raised in Dublin, Ireland btw (by the way..?), near the Dublin/Wicklow Mts. Once I finished studying, I left and went to live and work in Paris for a number of years, then back to Dublin for a bit, then Sydney, then Canberra since ‘92. Even though my parents have passed away and my sister and her family live in Dubai, I do still think of Dublin as home. Well in a sense. I haven’t actually been back since my mother’s funeral (11yrs). A large part of my extended family are still there, with the other part located in Ontario, Canada. I still have a number of friends there with many others scattered around different parts of Europe and the globe.

[SH-2600]

Hi Timshel

You know I am now hearing a wonderful Irish accent when I read your words, even if you no longer have it! Maybe the word timshel is more about reflection with attitude, still anti-regret I think. As for edgy and badass, I can be a bit sweary. I have also said and done a few things here and there that may be described as edgy, but that is as far as it goes! I promise you!

I hope your counselling went well today. Emotional intimacy takes practise I think. Maybe it takes many experiences of being vulnerable to feel comfortable. Maybe some people don’t ever get there, others learn to do it even if it is hard. I am like you, I want depth with the banter and fun. Were you able to raise these issues in your counselling today? I understand why it is so important to the rebuilding process, essential really. I really hope that your husband is able to get there with his emotional intimacy.

Our session was weird. After about 30 minutes, the counsellor basically started this awkward silence and ended up saying, I don’t have much to offer you! I had a Florence + the Machine song going round and round in my head at the time and I said out loud “and into the breach we got tossed”, which is a line from the song. I didn’t mean to say it out loud, but it also seemed quite apt!

My husband said he has been afraid of emotional intimacy over the last little while because he was afraid that talking about how he felt would put us on a path he wasn’t wanting to be on. He wants more affection, hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc but at the same time accepts me for who I am. There is a big tension for him between these two things. The counsellor acknowledged that everyone shows love in different ways but suggested that I might consider whether it was possible to give more of what he needs. There are two things here that I struggle with. One is that there are certain things about who I am that are fixed (stuck??), and maybe this is one of those things. I am not sure though, because the second thing is, maybe I am only like this with him. I have been with him since I was 21, so how do I know who I am outside of this relationship? would I be different with a woman? Is it that my sexuality is the issue? I find myself thinking about affection with my friend. If she reached for my hand or leaned in to kiss me...I would want that. But then is this just because it is like a honeymoon period and I would be this cold-assed me after a while with her too. This is like a bad LOOP!

[Timshel]

..and oh my love remind me, what was it that I did? did I drink too much? am I losing touch? did I build this ship to wreck? Florence Welch is ethereal!

So now what?!

I would love more than anything to be able to answer all those questions for you SH. I would love to tell you exactly what to do in order to find where your happiness lies and know for sure that I am right. But all I can do is ask more questions, the replies to which might give you the answers you seek.

Your husband seems like a genuinely kind, loyal and understanding man who loves you very much. You have a built a life together, a family together and travelled a long road together. And that is not nothing. You said that up until a few years ago, until you felt this shift in you, that the two of you had a strong partnership. Should you ultimately decide to recommit to your marriage, would you also commit to rebuilding that partnership and reviving the emotional intimacy that held it together? Would you abandon your resistance? Do you ever ‘want’ to give your husband the affection he craves? Have you ever ‘wanted’ that? Has there ever been that urge in you? Was there ever a honeymoon phase with him? You said you loved him but that you have never been in love with him, but were you ever even attracted to him? Was being physically intimate with him something you ever enjoyed or just endured? And before him? Any attraction to anyone else?

How are you with affection in general? With your kids? Family? Friends? Do you like it or does it make you uncomfortable? To me, you come across as very warm and loving. I am probably not the most tactile person by nature myself, probably more due to shyness than anything. But it doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy affection, holding someone or being held. I think affection is habit forming. The more you experience it the more you want to experience it. The more you practice it the easier it becomes. Would you be prepared to try that with your husband?

And to the question of your sexuality. You say your friend flicked a switch in you but it might possibly have been someone else at another time? You fell in love and experienced all the powerful emotions that go with that - excitement, exhilaration, longing. Addictive feelings. Feelings you didn’t think you could experience? Feelings you want to experience more of? Notwithstanding your current situation with your friend, do you look at women differently now? Are you open to a possible connection?

Things to ponder.

[SH-2600]

Hi Timshel
I think if I had to list my top 20 favourite songs ever, there would be at least 3-4 Florence + the Machine songs on that list.

You have given me a lot to ponder. It might take me a bit to answer your questions, so bear with me. My sleep has also been really rubbish this week, so I will try hard to be coherent. Sometimes I feel like my emotions and thoughts are so clear and obvious and other times they are hidden from me and I have no way of naming them!

After the counselling, my husband and I said the same thing, what now?? We have decided to use Mondays (he has every second Monday off) for the purpose of our own counselling chat. I think we are getting closer to being at the point where we can be honest, still with some fear about where it will take us, but we need to put it all out there I think. We can’t map out any kind of plan going forward when we are both holding things back. If we struggle to do that on our own, we will book in with someone else.

He is a good man, and in all of the ways that you described, which is what makes any consideration of walking away so hard. Our life together, kids, history, everything we have worked for and built, is not nothing, as you say. Not at all. It makes me sad to think about losing it all. If I recommit to our marriage then I would need to do it properly and wholeheartedly, otherwise it isn’t fair on him.

My husband described us to the counsellor as two good friends raising kids together. I often feel I ‘should’ give him the affection he wants, but I don’t feel I ‘want’ to. There is a block there in me, but the more I think about it, the more I think that block is more pronounced when it comes to affection with him. It feels like it has become more difficult for me to show or accept affection from him in the last few years. I think that maybe has to do with the loss of emotional intimacy. Which in turn is related to my feelings for my friend, and women in general, but also a few things in our relationship too. things I am unhappy about and that need resolving. Recurring things that drive me nuts! It is also related to the journey I have been on, where I started and where I am now. In some ways I feel our relationship belongs with a previous version of me (not sure if I have said that before). Maybe it is a matter of getting back emotional intimacy, getting over my friend and seeing where that takes us.

[SH-2600]

More pondering...

I feel like I need to give a bit more explanation of my background. It sounds a bit stark, and people have often judged it harshly without any understanding of it (my husband included), but I grew up in a family where there was no overt affection. No hugging, noone ever said ‘I love you’ to me or anyone else in the family. In fact to this day my parents have never told me they love me, but that does not matter because I know they do. This was the case on both sides of my extended family, grandparents, aunts and uncles were all the same. But I never felt unloved in that environment, ever. Love and affection was all in the taking care of each other, the cooking and feeding of people, getting out and kicking the footy or playing cricket with us kids, teaching us to drive and ride motorbikes, taking us places and doing stuff with us. I felt love and warmth from most people in my life. Mum and I do hug now, (my aunts also hug me now) but that has only happened since I had my kids.

I am different with my own kids, I hug them and tell them I love them, not because I feel I missed out by not having it, but because I want to. My daughter is a hugger! Affection doesn’t make me uncomfortable if it is with someone I love and care for. I am fine with my kids, the family members who do now hug and close friends. My friend is a big hugger! I feel comfortable in her hugs. But I still have this space around me that I like.

When I was young, I was attracted to boys, but I was shy and terrified of intimacy. If a boy I liked showed interest, I usually ran a mile. I did have a couple of relationships before my husband. Looking back, there was attraction, but all of the relationships were based heavily on friendship. Knowing I would be safe is/was a critical aspect of a relationship for me. My relationship with my husband was the same. We were good friends for 2 years before we were together. There was attraction early on though, although not like I observed in others, and definitely a honeymoon period. I never was very demonstrative though, even from the start. Now, I guess I can say physical and sexual intimacy is all fine and good while it is happening, I do like the feel of being held and holding someone, but I don’t often seek it out.

SH

[SH-2600]

And finally, more rabbiting on...

If I look at the three issues I have as separate things, then I can give easy answers. My unrequited love for my friend - can I manage that and focus on our beautiful, loving friendship? Yes I can. I am doing ok with that at the moment. My stalled marriage - can I commit to a future with my husband because it provides everything I need? Yes I can, once we fix a few of the things going wrong. My attraction to women - do I look at women differently now, am I open to a possible connection, other than my friend? Yes. I can’t get esti’s description of the softness of a woman out of my head! It has created a longing in me for intimacy with a woman. I do really want to feel that.

But none of these are separate issues.

And in fact there is an opposite question. Can I turn my back on the attraction I feel for women, and pack it neatly away in order to stay in my marriage? Probably. Because I love and care about my husband and family. Because I am safe (emotionally, physically and sexually) and I absolutely need that. Because it allows me the emotional, financial support, security and space to continue to manage my own mental health, and that is also critical.

But you know what? I really want to feel more. The love I feel for my friend (apart from the love I have for my kids) is some of the best love I have ever felt, although sometimes it also feels like the worst!

Want and need are of course 2 entirely different things!

Thank you for asking those questions because they are helping me to sift through the soup to find some clarity. Not sure if that came through in my writing though.

Now to you! Do you feel like you and your husband will get there? Were you able to make some headway in your session this week?

SH

[smallwolf]

@Timshel - the better team is the Lions?

@SH - I know you only have had a few sessions with your counsellor. I am unsure how many you and your husband have planned - and I do not have to know. I think however it is safe to say that some of the questions you might raise now may not get answered until somewhere down the line. Behaviours cannot change overnight.

Are you sure the silence was not intentional?

Also, it does or can take a number of positive experiences to overcome some had bad experience.

I cannot remember what I was talking about with my psychologist but i remember the youtube video I explained. It was an exercise for musicians ... and the guy said that sometimes it may take a week to click, sometimes a month and sometimes 2 years.

I cannot remember what I was talking about with my psychologist but i remember the youtube video I explained. It was an exercise for musicians ... and the guy said that sometimes it may take a week to click, sometimes a month and sometimes 2 years.

So that is a way I try to approach the homework I get from my psychologist or things we talk about. It may not work in the first or second week but persistence (for me) pays off. When you get asked that question from the counsellor, you can only give an honest answer that is true for yourself. Typically I say "I'll try".

Unfortunately I do not know much about love nor emotional intimacy. I do not that what I see on the TV or film is too far removed from reality. Or the alternative is that I do not feel it per se. Or I might and not recognise it. Or I do and this is as good as it gets. This is only my experience and yours might be different.

[Timshel]

Hey you,

Before I forget. The American National Public Radio station (NPR) broadcasts a series of mini concerts from their offices in Washington D.C. on a regular basis called the Tiny Desk Concerts. Heard of them? They invite artists (some famous, some not so famous) from across all musical genres to come into their offices to perform a short acoustic set of their work. Each ‘concert’ lasts approx. 15 to 20 mins or so (3 or 4 songs) and takes place, quite literally, at the desks of the station’s employees (hence the name). Each concert is available for viewing on YouTube. Just Google NPR Tiny Desk Concerts.

I am telling you this because I find music (live music especially) a wonderful distraction from life’s stressors. No concentration whatsoever required and it puts me into a completely different headspace (it’s sort of like my very own portal into another world!) Now obviously one can’t attend live music performances at the drop of a hat, so the next best thing for me is these Tiny Desk Concerts. I like to put my headphones on, select a concert and spend 15 mins or so at my very own live music event. Before long I can become totally engaged in the performance and let any stress I am experiencing just fade into the background, at least for a while. Maybe if you try doing this 15 mins or so before you go to bed at night, it might put you into a more relaxed state for sleep. Florence Welsh does a good acoustic set (a great version of Ship to Wreck). I can suggest Adele’s set, Hozier, Coldplay do an interesting one, the Cranberries (Vale Dolores O’Riordan ...) and there are a host of folk, Americana and even country artists who are worth a watch. Anyway, just a thought. Have a look and tell me what you think.

I have read and reread your last 3 posts and, just as I suspected, you are NOT the cold assed person you described yourself as. You are every bit as loving and warm a person as a I thought you were!! I always tell my son that ‘Love’, like ‘Sorry’, is an action word. In many ways, what you do is so much more important than what you say. I have to say that I don’t think your family background sounds stark at all. The love is indeed demonstrated in all the activities you described. Some people are just more reserved by nature, not as demonstrative. But they show their love in other ways. I can be like that sometimes too, I have to admit.

Nearly out of characters again already!! CHRIST! I’ll be back. Until then..I’m sending you a big hug, MASSIVE, HUGE!