They just wont understand, why?

[white knight]

We hear those words often. The trouble is, there is a word in that sentence that doesn’t
fit, it shouldn’t be there. It’s the word “wont”

“Wont” means they have a choice to understand your emotional struggles. It should, in many
cases, be replaced with “don’t” or "cant"

For these people are the people we love and they love us. Would they, make the choice of not understanding? Understanding…what does that entail? Do we expect our partners, children, friends and parents to understand what its like to have our minds as if it’s in a cloud? Or throbbing like a migraine? Or whysome of us sleep for what seems endless hours?  What about when our carer partner has been so long without
love making and their frustration explodes and we chant “you just don’t understand”!!!

I put it to you, that it is us also that doesn’t understand what its like to be a partner of a mentally ill person. In respect to this an article I wrote a long time ago now can be googled- “Topic: who cares for the carer- beyondblue” In that thread I mentioned that if you can walk to the toilet, answer the phone and get yourself something to eat during the day while your partner is at work….you can also greet him/her as they walk in the door, have a cuppa and a chat asking how their day went before you slip back into bed if you must.

Some cant, understandably. But some wont! A choice (note the word “wont”) is made. In
these cases they are hurting the ones they love.

I’m lucky, my wife has depression, it comes and goes. We never say “you wont understand”. We both do understand. However my last partner and before her, my first wife, never understood my struggles. Those days I believed that they chose to not understand. I was wrong. They had little hope of understanding. Why?

Simply  because the other person doesn’t “feel” the effects of the illness. And there might also be the blaming effect to, to blame others through our own expectations of what we are pleading for.

Whatever sooths you and comforts you from your partner – tell them what that is. Think about your needs whether is a daily hug, a hand on the shoulder or an ear with the occasional comment or question. For your partner or loved one likely has no concept of what they can do to help. And that in itself can be agonising.

We should never get the feeling or not being loved mixed up with a lack of ability to help us. It’s not
that they wont understand-its more likely they cant understand so they don’t.

Tony WK

[white knight]

Hi Mr Paul,

Thankyou for acknowledging my efforts with my original post.

When we acknowledge our limitations that can be confronting. It can also lead to guilt...especially if we aren't fair in ourselves.

Yes, you tried to help your ex...tried...thats enough.

In terms of "subtle narcissism" Google these 4 words- queen witch hermit waif. My mother has all 4 of those traits.

TonyWK

[Guest_1643]

hi all - there is also an idea of "covert narcissism" - which has helped me .
I encoutnered a narcissistic man who was always presenting as if he was a victim, he was mistreated by anyone. for example if you shared a story of something good that happened to you, he truly believed you were mistreating him. Why? Because 10 years ago he'd had something terrible happen to him and u had just reminded him of it and how dare you be happy when he was sad. Any work achievement I made seemed to mock him. He was also jealous of people who were sexually assaulted because he believed that no one would want to sexually assault him because he wasn't attractive. So if you can see, he could twist any pain or vulnerability to something about himself.
It is weird to associate someone like this as narcissistic because we think of narcissistic as bragging and overconfident - but it's interesting how there can be a sort of "backwards bragging" - like bragging about victimhood? I've watched some youtube videos on covert narcissism and found it so interesting.
Like you Mr Paul I didn't have the tools to recognise narcissistc behaviour but have benefited now from researching it and finding the red flags, (which are not always what you would think!!)

[ecomama]

Hey Mr Paul and Tony WK

I had similar issues in my last marriage.

Do you think we THOUGHT we could help our spouses when in reality there was no chance of them getting better, meaning mentally well? No matter what we did?

I didn't see ex demon as mentally unstable decades ago when I met him.
I actually BELIEVED that he'd had a rough trot and many other ppl were to blame - lol silly, naive little me.
I worked solely and ONLY for his benefit for so long, he was relentlessly demanding, it never ever stopped or even slowed.

I NEVER knew for one moment what he was doing but that goes back to the Covey saying "We judge other people's actions by our own intentions"... I have never intended harm.

Demon being a narcissistic psychopath ONLY intended harm.

Now, it's a HUGE read flag to me when someone will only EVER sit around and blame others for everything.
Also someone who NEVER says sorry.
And those who never feel guilt or remorse.
Also those who attempt to extract sympathy 24/7 - it's needed for these people like blood is to vampires lol.

I found these ppl think that EVERYONE is just like them or hiding the fact they are.
When this is not true at all.

Another (blue?) flag is when someone says sorry ALL the time. That signals to me they've been abused and are true victims. Sometimes they don't even know it.

I was so innocent really. Demon always called me so naive.

Studying NPD and sociopaths and psychopaths gave me the knowledge to "get into his mind", then KNOWING how demon thought, his modus operandii etc etc was the ONLY way I could beat him in Courts.

Talk about mind-effing.

I would HATE to be him.

Sorry lol I had a nightmare a couple of nights ago about the Court Consultant lol... hence it's been at the forefront of the exposure therapy yesterday.

I'm so lucky to be alive.

EM

That's pretty scary Sleepy.

It's incredible what we can learn about personality types online.

I understand there's no cure for Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

[Guest909]

G'day all

Like everyone here, I've learnt a lot after coming out of a relationship with a spouse with narcissistic traits. Throughout my marriage, I always knew mental health issues were in play, I just did not understand or recognise the issues. Up until recently, I no idea what NPD was. I had heard of the disorder; but that was the limit of my knowledge.

Depending on what research paper you reference; there can be up to six (6) different types of NPD. Each paper uses different names for the types, but the end result is always the same. Tony WK, often describes the types as Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch. There are many more.

Sleepy, it is interesting that you mentioned the covert narcissist. There is also another newer type called communal narcissism. As if six was not enough.

If my experience is any guide, it would seem that people with NPD traits can change stripes with relative ease. They can change from covert to a more toxic type when they feel threatened; just my amateur assessment.

Paul

[Guest909]

The sad thing is, those with NPD traits are also victims of the disorder.

[Guest_1643]

Hi Paul - thank you for the explanation - I read a bit about the communal narcissist and can pick people Ive met who tick those boxes. It seems quite common.
I agree with u how quickly someone narcissistic can shape-shift from eg covert to malignant.
To be honest, if you've ever witnessed that shapeshift - it is truly terrifying and disorienting. It's literally like seeing a mask come off. You wander how someone who seems one way can suddenly exhibit the exact opposite traits. I had absolutely no understanding of narcissism until recently when I saw a therapist and she identifed that I'd been in a relationship with one.
At the time I found it extremely confusing to be close to someone like that - I didn't understand how to placate them. Giving care seemed to make them angrier - and yet that seemed to be what they were asking for? I guess all they really wanted was affirmation, attention and control, which no one can give completely.

[Guest_1643]

hey EM

I like your identifying markers (Blue flags?) of narcissism -

never saying sorry is a huge one

A more malignant one i've seen is only saying sorry in public or as a show of sympathy care to others - eg i had someone who didn't apologise to me in person, tell a group of people when called out for something wrong he did to me, "Oh, yes when you make a mistake, you have to acknowledge it and move on. Yes I apologised for that mistake..." - wow - acting out apologies?

But people who don't ever say sorry is a huge red flag. Or if they do say sorry it's almost twisted to become and insult.

I think a lot of narcissists also claim to not remember things they did/said - as if it never happened.

I think we are all naive at one point until we meet one. They know how to conceal pretty well, and it's so hard to be overly skeptical initially - but after meeting a narcissist I guess you learn to be VERY skeptical.

[white knight]

Hi all,

Sleepy, "covert narcissism" very interesting. I've likely come across this and assessed it as just negativity.

EM, what I experience with my estranged mother is wild swings with attitudes towards others. When onside you'd be joined at the hip, then a spark of criticism would result in her turning on you viciously. It would matter not how good I've been to her.

Mr Paul, informative posts. Thankyou.

TonyWK

[Guest_1643]

Hi Tony - interesting how narcissism manifests in diff ways

I called Lifeline the other day and it came out that I'd been affected by a narcissist

"Narcissists are very easy to spot" the lady said to me.
So anyway we had an argument and I had to hang up but I said that's not true and also she was making it sound like it's easy to not be abused.
There are entire countries and nations that have been conned by narcissists... lol it is NOT always easy to spot particularly with more "covert" types

PS my father sounds very similar to your mother.

[white knight]

Hi Sleepy

That Lifeline person was out of order. The judgement was that we are all aware of who is a narcissist.

EG My ex wife throughout our 11 years of marriage used silence as a weapon often instigated for most minor reasons. It often went on for weeks- not one word. When visitors came they couldnt pick that she never addressed me at all. The marriage ended in 1996. It was only 2-3 years ago that I read that silence to that degree is a form of narcissism. So there you go!

The same with my mother. When alive my dad kept her in check but after his passing in 1992 I became her leaning post which I was happy to do, care for her, maintain her unit etc. I had a falling out with her 4 days before my first wedding in 1985. She ruined my wedding, made it all about her and our conflict. For blackmail she withheld tupperware orders paid for by my inlaws until I was escorted by police to retrieve them.

My mother never worked a day in her life yet she was expert on who I worked for, whether I should leave a job or not ad her expertise stretched to the almost perfect triangulation of her me and my sister. She played us like a fiddle. It all came to an end 9 years ago when she threatened to ruin my 2nd wedding and a court order was applied for to keep her away. Just the document to show relative how evil her son was. My sister and I lost half our family on the spot. The worse half lol.

And that is a prime example of those sorts that wont/dont understand mental illness or narcissism, cant acknowledge it. Some of those family members have returned to our lives simply because eventually they have become my mothers target and realised what we have endured. Often they have become a target due to her pressurizing them to put pressure on me to return to her life. My sister and I have done that on many occasions before but the harmony has lasted a few months then it all begins again.

I've read up some articles on extreme BPD and narcissism. With the book "walking on eggshells" by Dr Christine Lawson (who came up with the theory on Queen Witch Hermit Waif) often those people had a trauma between the ages of 6-8yo. In my mother case she had a older brother 2 years her senior and both lived on a dairy farm. Them days the son was favoured as he carried on the family name and took over the farm. The daughter married into another family and became one of that family. They lived in Tasmania where traditions were even more entrenched. I believe she felt discriminated.

TonyWK