They just wont understand, why?

[white knight]

We hear those words often. The trouble is, there is a word in that sentence that doesn’t
fit, it shouldn’t be there. It’s the word “wont”

“Wont” means they have a choice to understand your emotional struggles. It should, in many
cases, be replaced with “don’t” or "cant"

For these people are the people we love and they love us. Would they, make the choice of not understanding? Understanding…what does that entail? Do we expect our partners, children, friends and parents to understand what its like to have our minds as if it’s in a cloud? Or throbbing like a migraine? Or whysome of us sleep for what seems endless hours?  What about when our carer partner has been so long without
love making and their frustration explodes and we chant “you just don’t understand”!!!

I put it to you, that it is us also that doesn’t understand what its like to be a partner of a mentally ill person. In respect to this an article I wrote a long time ago now can be googled- “Topic: who cares for the carer- beyondblue” In that thread I mentioned that if you can walk to the toilet, answer the phone and get yourself something to eat during the day while your partner is at work….you can also greet him/her as they walk in the door, have a cuppa and a chat asking how their day went before you slip back into bed if you must.

Some cant, understandably. But some wont! A choice (note the word “wont”) is made. In
these cases they are hurting the ones they love.

I’m lucky, my wife has depression, it comes and goes. We never say “you wont understand”. We both do understand. However my last partner and before her, my first wife, never understood my struggles. Those days I believed that they chose to not understand. I was wrong. They had little hope of understanding. Why?

Simply  because the other person doesn’t “feel” the effects of the illness. And there might also be the blaming effect to, to blame others through our own expectations of what we are pleading for.

Whatever sooths you and comforts you from your partner – tell them what that is. Think about your needs whether is a daily hug, a hand on the shoulder or an ear with the occasional comment or question. For your partner or loved one likely has no concept of what they can do to help. And that in itself can be agonising.

We should never get the feeling or not being loved mixed up with a lack of ability to help us. It’s not
that they wont understand-its more likely they cant understand so they don’t.

Tony WK

[AlwaysForgotten]

Hi Tony,

I thought that was exactly what we are doing, that my post was specifically about wondering why people do what they do and that this would be helpful for other people to understand an alternative to what you have described.

I apologize if you did not feel that was helpful or that it added to the conversation (strange considering you started by saying it did), but I respect if you dont want to deal with an alternate view point that may be helpful to other people

Sorry for upsetting you

[Guest_1643]

I do have a fear of abandonment but have attached in the past I think to people who weren't able to be stable for me. I accepted excuses as well

After my recent suicide attempt I have such a low tolerance now for excuses.
I think I always felt bad about myself and like I was in the wrong, so it was easy for people to justify their bad behaviour and I accepted it.

It wasn't so so hard to break now that I've got some support around this - I started researching patterns of abuse, ideas of supply, and also I try and check in with how I'm feeling. Sometimes it still isn't instantly obvious who's safe but I can spot it after a little while.

I imagine you learnt so much from that marriage etc and were able to move on to someone who was better for you. This is kind of my goal I guess. I don't want to let people in who will take me for granted.

I'm a good enough friend and have had some beautiful lifelong friendships that feel real. The other stuff, the fake friendships which have abandonment would have that rush of them being close to me than dumping me. I never knew where I stood. When they were very close to me I felt that I didn't deserve it, and when they dumped me I felt sort of confirmed that I wasn't good enough. But really they just weren't capable of being a good friend.

[white knight]

Hi Sleepy,

A very interesting discussion.

In 1996 one week before separation I had my attempt. Post that event a few friends slowly drifted away. They were the ones that were out of their comfort zone having to deal with an unstable person.

I also grew more easily tired of small talk, fake welcomings and any sign of manipulation. Paranoid?almost.

use search bar

the best praise you’ll ever get

the labyrinth of friendships

The first one is immediately post my first marriage, 40yo, lost my full time fatherhood, recovering from a narcissistic wife. I dug deep to recall the difficulties.

Sometimes we have to guess what is in our friends mind. I had s school friend I’d known for 50 years. He began to act distant then my sister suggested he was jealous. It turned out he was. I had children in my early 30’s, he mid 40’s. At 50yo he didn’t have the enthusiasm to play with his kids, yet my daughters were adults- off our hands, free to go travelling etc.

How has your recovery progressed?

TonyWK

[Guest_1643]

hi Tony

Sounds like you dug deep after your marriage ended and were able to achieve so much

It's nice that you were able to have kids in your early 30s and then be able to watch them grow. I'm 35 now and hoping to have a family someday but things aren't looking so bright...
My recovery is a painful struggle with wins and losses

I don't really have any support from family or friends

I have to keep reaching out and getting support either professionally or asking the one or two friends I have for a chance to spend time

My brother is very awkward and came to see me last week. I was very very vulnerable when he came (just coinceidently, he announced he'd be coming on that very day, and I had been in the midst of a low and desperate few days) - when he arrived I asked if he'd hang out for a bit and go for a walk with me, he said no. Seemed he only allocated a few minutes to spend with me.
The pscyhologist said he is just very awkward. Sometimes these little things feel very personal.
Sometimes they are.

The friend I had mentioned earlier in the post, i have stopped making effort with. After the first two weeks, I feel I mentally moved on from her, which has helped me. The first step is always the hardest

[white knight]

Hi Sleepy

I discovered early on that between psych/therapist visits was a huge vacant space where I felt I had to fill with my own ideas and what worked for me.

Im not religious but envied those that are as they had spiritual fulfilment. So I searched for a spiritual guide and found Maharaji Prem Rawat a wise man that did more for me watching his YouTube videos than and psych could.

Google

youtube maharaji sunset

youtube Maharaji the perfect instrument

youtube Maharaji appreciate

Then there is the self help ideas like muscle tensioning exercises- again, helped me to sleep better than any sleeping tablet.

As for your brother his awkwardness is a shame and I feel sorry for him. However I’m happier you have moved on from your “friend”. Friendships are fluid they come and go. Protecting ourselves is priority, even if ones child is toxic and destructive like my youngest.

This prioritiving sounds selfish, it flies in the face of unwritten rules of standing by family. But we with mental illness cannot cope with such upheaval- we have little flex in this.

When I reflect I realise my greatest ability was to draw on my inner positivity.

Google

beyondblue 30 minutes can change your life

The change from negative thinker to positive one occurred in 1982 but that didn’t stop an attempt on my life in 1996. I learned that a motivated mind helps in recovery but not in prevention of heavily depressive episodes.

My wife of 8 years never had her own children. She like me live animals. Also I’d known her 25 years prior to dating her. Her previous husband had ill health so children was out of the question. She is “mum” to my eldest.

Fact is time is not in your side but, what is your priority? The best mental health you can get is a good goal. Relaxation with topics like if you have children or not. Letting it be on your mind isn’t always a good thing....like voluntary torture.

topic: worry worry worry

TonyWK

[Guest_1643]

Hi Tony, I feel like I relate and understand a lot of what you're writing.
I also struggle with the unwritten laws society places about "sticking by family." it seems to ignore that sometimes the way we help is by distance.

I saw my brother this week and he was really awkward again, he was on his phone the whole time and made me feel like he didn't want to be there. I asked him if he was expecting a call, and he said no, he's just being an addict. He has no interest in my mental health journey and didn't ask any questions about it. We talked mostly about shows and news... it is what it is, i guess. The sad thing is he wants to work in mental health.. but okay....

Do you think that your recovery helped you to meet a more supportive partner? Ie when you felt better you attracted someone better for you?
I hope that will happen in my life to be honest.
Thank you for being happy for me about me walking away from toxic friends. I worry I sound selfish, but I want to recover so badly, and I need safe people around to do so. I will look into the spiritual side... I think having a sense of something above us does help. I'm quite spiritual in my way.

[white knight]

Hi Sleepy

thankyou for replying

re: “Do you think that your recovery helped you to meet a more supportive partner? Ie when you felt better you attracted someone better for you?
I hope that will happen in my life to be honest”

In my case recovery of any illness or medications improving stability didn’t assist me in selecting a new partner. In fact in 2008 following the end of my 3rd long term relationship, I’d retreated to the hills in a hamlet with a small new home - never to live life with another human being.

But loneliness is hard to cope with. A lady that I’d matched with my previous brother in law way back in 1987 had been single too and she had been my daughters favourite auntie by marriage. Our compatibility was extraordinary- she has depression, adores animals and appreciated me. We married in 2011.

I can’t emphasise strong enough that I didn’t previously have a good filtering system in place. That’s why I wrote

Fortress of survival

fortress of survival part 2

fortress of survival (workplace)

use search bar. All of those relate to countering ones vulnerability by introducing screening into our decision making. Using our head instead of our heart to make emotional decisions.

They say there is a person for all of us- that’s true - but we have to proactively search and be more cautious... take more time.

TonyWK

[Guest_1643]

thanks, i feel encouraged to understand that you were able to learn and grow in terms of filtering people better

living on a hamlet alone is something i can understand, the natural world can seem safer than humans

its amazing that you and your wife had so much in common and found each other at the right time - i love stories like that. it sounds like you were really suited and connected

i also had a terrible filter and used to let people in mostly out of pity sometimes

i didn't think highly of myself and if anyone wanted to connect i assumed i should be grateful and reciproactd. never really thought much about my own needs or even rights to have happy and healthy friendships

It is more complex when the people are in your own family, as you tend to give them more chances, wantig to have a relationship

I'm a softie like that, I'd love to have a warm and happy family
instead i have a cold and clumsy, selfish family, who constantly forget i exist. yet because of that childlike need for family, i've overlooked at times their abusive ways just to have peace

I will try out those threads, thanks for including!

[ecomama]

Dear Sleepy21

I've read back quite a bit and see the struggles you've had in the past. (I always try to put things in the past tense so as to free minds up a bit for the endless possibilities in the future).

You know a lot of my family background.

My brother and I had a very difficult 20y. Sometimes I wouldn't see or hear from him for almost all year and he lives a few streets away.

He is only now seemingly "coming around" to want a more caring relationship. As in the past few weeks.

Something I realized about a month ago was that I wasn't doing the "seek first to understand and then to be understood". So I tried it. This is from Stephen Covey's work.

When we're feeling REALLY overwhelmed by our own MH issues, we can't often see past ourselves to want to know more about those who are "close" to us and what they're going through. When I find out they feel pressure from this or that, I sometimes THINK omg I would give my right arm to have those as my worst issues! lol.
I seldom say that though.
But it is what it is to them.
I'm sure plenty of people have thought the same about my situations but have never said.

I just wanted to share a strategy that has helped heal my relationship with my brother.

Lots of love EM

[Guest_1643]

Hi Em

I appreciate this so much. I feel very understood from this....
I do struggle with that for sure. I also feel like a lot of people have it better than me (they don't... but when i was suicidal... well, didn't think too straight....)

Small things felt like they were saying "you're a failure" - i remember i ordered something online for my apartment spent a lot of money on it, not returnable, it was way way too big. I sat there with my oversized furniture and cried for four days. I was like - you mess up everything (it was just my parents voice...) I thought everyone else was capable and functioning well

I can't actually believe once I opened up my eyes to see the pain and struggle others are going through... I had to get down off my own painful perch and see it.

I try to help others now and it makes me feel a bit better. I haven't really taken that appraoch to my brother, but I should... I know he has struggles but haven't a clear picture of what they are.
They aren't the same as mine, but I imagine he has some.
I'm sorry it's been so up and down with ur brother too - I do remember a lot fo what you described about the divisions in your family and how you fought to make your way to a peaceful place. It's endless, isn't it. And here you are raising your children with love and able to connect to your brother now.