My estranged daughter turns 21 today

[Jstar49]

Hi everyone, I'm completely new here so Hello and thanks for being here.

It's my eldest daughter's 21st birthday today and I'm feeling pretty emotional about it. She hasn't spoken to me in 4 years, and refuses to have any contact with me, my husband or our 10 yr old daughter. I was a single mum with her, stayed around her dad's town in order for her to have a relationship with him but finally left when she was 8, to return up north and be closer to family. That's a whole other story.

She was impacted by my PND, for sure, and things have always been intense between us. Chaotic too. Interesting, but not exactly stable. My marriage when she was 10 was the start of some kind of normal, and now I've never been so content or mentally/emotionally stable, even tho I still need to take care of myself, not get overwhelmed, and watch myself re: taking on others opinions/judgements.

I worry about her but I tell myself maybe it's for the best, maybe she just needs time and space to discover who she is, and learn to forgive the mistakes of the past and accept herself and myself for who we are.

It's hard tho. Today I just would love to see her, see her smile at me, hug her and tell her how proud of her I am. And hear whatever she has to say.

Anyhow, thanks for listening. I know there's others out there with similar stories. It seems like the world just needs a course in family harmony! It's so sad for the kids that get caught up in it.

Cheers,

Jstar

[ecomama]

Hey Sleepy and J*

Sleepy I was thinking of you as I wrote all that too, I knew that YOU knew exactly what I was talking about. EXACTLY.

Oh that catchphrase isn't mine lol, I read that years ago after my D Day ("Discovery Day") which was horrific in itself but the fall out was monstrous - just the depths of the narcissistic psychopath demon is.

J* I also wanted to address your comment about your friend "liking" H..... omg YES!
Narcs have a "Charm" they can turn on and off when required.

Even the NSW Police recognised this back in my Court days!
I think the pamphlet they gave me was titled something like "Charming but dangerous".

EV-ERY-ONE in my life was fooled by demon. Quickly after D Day (in reflection) the more arrogant a "friend" or associate was, the more they quickly sided with demon).
Thankfully there were only a few of these ppl.

Everyone else remained shocked for a LONG while but believed me.
My oldest friends had my back.

Anyway the charming aspect is part of the M.O. that's all I'm saying.
They use this charm to socially isolate their victim(s) and do a BRILLIANT job of it too.

They also use it to "triangulate" ie use others to get to the victim, so that they can get what they want. Or get the victim to DO as they want.
We often call these ppl they use "minions" or "flying monkeys".

Expert manipulators.

It could be TMI to take in but another thing I learnt in the "Breaking Free" Course I attended through the Women's Health Centre here (I was referred to this by Headspace Head Psych after the kids all spoke with Counsellors there)... was that a male narc in a partner relationship often won't show all the narc tendencies at the beginning of the relationship.

If they did, we'd RUN!

So I call it similar to the "How to boil a frog" analogy.
They do slow reveals.

Usually alot more comes out:
~ after marriage,
~ after we've had a baby with them
~ after joint purchasing of property...

that's usually when we'll see more.

J* you also keep mentioning the feeling of "confusion". That Course said 2 things about this...
1. To TRUST our gut instincts and
2. Feeling confused is a RED FLAG for abuse.

Love Always
EMxxxx

[Jstar49]

Such a lot to take in.

I think I need to see a counsellor again.

what you described Em, re vulnerability, not feeling safe and hence lack of connection- spot on!

Sleepy, I didn’t know much about your situation. I’m so sorry to hear that. Big hugs sweet sister.

love you guys,

J*

[Jstar49]

Hi all,

so I did some research, and whilst I can def see some narcissist tendencies in my H, I wouldn’t say he’s a full blown narcissist. Some of the stuff I read I have often just thought is just a guy thing! Like the needing to be centre of attention, ego driven and selfish.
But... the person that kept coming to mind is my mum! And I have often thought that my H shares a certain similarity with my mum, so that’s interesting!

I have often thought that, if I was a different sort of person then H would have been able to shame me and cower me more.
And the lack of empathy is a big one to identify- as it’s what’s underlying heaps of my complaints, I just didn’t realise it.
I’ve begun to put out inquiries for a psych, so we’ll see how it goes. I think I need someone different to last time, someone with a bit more knowledge behind her listening.

In one way tho, identifying that many of our issues may be caused by narc tendencies, mainly lack of empathy, gives me a starting point for my approach now, in this marriage. It’s easier to deal with if you know what the problem is!

Of course, what would be awesome is if he went to counselling......!!

I feel pretty clear today, despite him being in a mood still. I can see that he gets moody if I seem to criticise him in any way. Even just to ask him to please pick up the floor mat after his shower!! What I want to figure out is, is it healthy for me to adjust to his triggers, ie be very careful to not be critical? Or is this unhealthy for me. He seems very sensitive.

the other trigger is disagreeing with him. He doesn’t like that. It’s like that old program is still running- “I’m the man of the house, and what I say goes!”

patriarchal BS!

One of the things I read said that’s they need constant validation etc. I can agree with that for H! It’s tiring to have to constantly praise him for little things. And it’s not mutual. He almost never gives me praise- unless someone else is around.
I’m actually not that good. I refuse to congratulate him every time he does the dishes. That’s just ridiculous, IMO.
It does explain his attitude when I don’t tho.

Life is learning!

J*

[ecomama]

Hey J*

Yeah wow hey? Omg life IS learning! So right there sister, well it's true for some. For others it's merely a long series of complaining about how the world won't fall into THEIR "order".

What you described in your last post reminds me of what Alexa terms "toxic masculinity".
I'm not sure of it all (never researched it) but demon had the LOT she says.
He was a Psychopathic Narc and more. So extremely extreme lol.

I know your H isn't this.

It's not "all men" just most of whom we've met I think so far, sadly.
The ones who complain of being "emasculated" by their partner which is garbage in my opinion.
Just another term they can use to criticise US with!
Pure bs.

I think it would be beneficial to have a serious discussion with H about what IS criticism and what's just common sense.

It's freaking COMMON SENSE to pick up the darned bath mat J*.
In fact I deem it to be a POLITE and respectful way of leaving a room as close to as you found it... or better as an adult we'd hope.

I think some of Hs fears are based in his fear of feeling vulnerable.

BF and I have worked through this for him. He had very strong male role models. Bordering on toxic or maybe so. BF's trying to get comfortable with his emotional side. One that's not shown by his role models whatsoever!

I LOVE and APPRECIATE this side of him. It's absolutely beautiful and I wouldn't want him to shun it at all.

I can see he's still afraid of it though. Each time he reveals, I can tell he's scared. I think it triggers his schemas!

Oh I wanted to tell you that Alexa's psych has decided to do Schema Therapy which is AWESOME!
Because you mentioned the similarities between H and your mother, it could be very beneficial to you too.

I think that work is some of the most valuable work I've done thus far. I did it about 7y ago.
It was only part of the jigsaw but extremely good in KNOWING THYSELF lol.

Once our schemas are set in childhood, they're set for life. But we can calm and soothe them.

Another catchphrase I thought of about the bath mat was "A King and his servants".
Apparently narcs can't have truly intimate r/ships, as this is part of their personality disorder.

Methinks the little boy inside H is in need of MOUNTAINS of attention.

It's not your job though J*. Not Qualified. Not ethically possible anyways.

Sometimes I think narcs are just angry individuals. Carrying around anger and blurting it out when they see fit. yuck.

Love EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Are you sure you want to encourage me to be on my soapbox? I'm possibly too good at it!

Unfortunately what you're describing re your good day gone bad and how you felt trying to relax in the bath reminds me too much of my abusive ex. You could be going along just fine, then he'd lose it over some random thing. Like you said, you'd lower expectations, then still get blown out of the water. Abusive people thrive on keeping you off balance, to feel in control. It's not a good pattern. I'm a bit allergic to that phrase you used, "It is what it is" - I mostly see that used in context of accepting of the unacceptable, and it kinda fits here. Can I ask you to stop yourself when you feel like saying that, and ask yourself if it really has to be that?

I recognise too what EM said about "kibbles". The bad outweighs the good, and the good is carefully metered out when you withdraw, to fill you with doubt. Been there, too. Of course you feel awful and unsafe and confused. It seems like low level stuff, but it's constant and it erodes your confidence and harms you, weather that's his intent or not. I don't think my last ex was intentional in his cruelty but he did so many of the things you describe, all "I love you" one minute, but in his actions he rejected me in little ways on so many levels, showed such disregard and disrespect. Honestly, the one that got physical didn't do half the damage that one did.

As for your friend liking H, no-one knows what goes on in a relationship but the people in it. He might be charismatic and seem good on the surface to your friend, but that doesn't say anything about your experience behind closed doors, that's not what your friend sees. Please don't doubt your own experience, I imagine your gut knows if you're in this or need to get out - it's not about anyone else.

The thing about vulnerability, not feeling safe and not connecting - been there too, more than once. I know exactly how you're feeling.

I'm glad the info about narcissism is helping you define some of the underlying stuff you're struggling with. Have you had any luck finding a new psych to discuss all this stuff with? I think EM might be onto something with the Schema Therapy too, with the commonalities between you mother and H. Still learning about Schemas, but it looks promising as a framework for working through things.

Boy, this discussion has brought up a lot of memories. I assure you, what you're feeling is valid, and you are heard and understood.

Blue.

[Jstar49]

Oh my beautiful friends!

I have missed you!

Things have been up and down, as per usual. A recent visit with an awesome friend stirred up H’s insecurities, and made ugliness which tbh I am still recovering from.
I hate that it’s this way, and I don’t know if there is any point me investing anything into it changing. H has admitted to acting like an idiot, and is making more of an effort around the house- the honeymoon stage- again. I still haven’t applied for counselling help, and it never seems to right time to talk about it.
Em, you’re so right, H isn’t like your ex, but neither is he working on being more emotionally open and vulnerable. That realisation alone leaves me wanting more.
Blue Thankyou. I shall examine myself a little bit more when I think that terribly resigned phrase ‘ it is what it is’. You’re right, it’s pretty lacklustre. I’m beginning to reimagine my life, and what I’m imagining is a lot more sparkly and shiny than mere acceptance of an impossible reality.
Perhaps this is part of my process of really loving and valuing myself...?

Work is pretty demanding atm, and the holidays were also socially demanding- although more because of my d’s social life than mine LOl. She had a great time!

I am approaching the finale of my hand knitted cardi tho, so that is actually quite good! I have learnt to do button holes!

My eldest d’s wedding is in November. Random ppl on the street knew about it before me. Sucks huh!
Kinda putting that one in the too hard basket atm. Never did get around to sending her the card. In some far off place I have acceptance about it. One of those things that’s not in my control. It’s a bit sad really, cos I do know how our mothers haunt us. Even when she cuts me out of her life, she will still be reminded of me. Inevitable! A little bit of LOL.

talk soon,

J*

[ecomama]

Hey J* & waves to Blue and all

WELL DONE YOU! Knitting button holes is quite an achievement!! GO YOU.

I'm too busy watching pimple popping & garden workers on YouTube to zone out to sleep, after working hard during Lock Down to do much else.

Hmmmm. I read your posts early this morning & thought about you both alot today (whilst doing endless online Courses for work no less! hahaha).

What you wrote about H... making an adjustment, at times, after you withdraw or react in some way to his anti-relationship stuff is what Alexa & I say is being on the mousewheel... it just goes back to the beginning...

In that Course I did, they referred to the "Cycle of Violence" alot.
It's not only violence in a physical way.

It's probably better described as the Cycle of an Abusive personality.

H doing those little things 'for you' which IMHO is just adulting.... is part of the "buy back" phase... anyway you know this stuff - it's all online for your endless mire into misery thinking....

On a POSITIVE note, you CAN visualise a peaceful, calm life without this garbage.
I know I said this to you early in the peace, about getting your ducks in a row.

BF thought I was nuts suggesting you stay until T is 18yo. But no one knows what being a single parent is like unless they've done it. Also, Family Law is a wretched experience to go through nowadays (it wasn't nice BEFORE, now it's exponentially WORSE).

So I would avoid it like the plague too.

But in saying that, it would be wonderful for you to have a loving and truly intimate relationship with a kind man.
I feel more loved by BF even though he's 1000s of klms away than I EVER did from demon.
Intimacy is not only a physical thing... in fact I think for women, it's MUCH deeper than that.

Trust being at the core.

I have to tell you some Secret Squirrel stuff you might get a laugh out of.... Alexa is still FB friends with ONE of demon's siblings. I think the sister has forgotten Alexa is on her list or something, IDK. Alexa just keeps it that way to "keep tabs" she said.
Anyway she showed me a photo of the whole family and told me demon was there.... I literally could NOT see it... I zoomed in and tried hard but to no avail.
OMG talk about the inner ugliness coming through a person's features!
WOW... it's array of addictions has absolute possession.

BF and I joked about putting up the photo of my Engagement ring lol.
We decided not.

Keep safe and warm, hoping you find some happiness in each day.

Love EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Sorry to hear about another episode of jealousy. I can understand insecurity, but if he can't work on mastering this unfounded jealousy, what business does he have being in a relationship at all? Forgive my bluntness, but I wonder how he'd like it if you were constantly suspicious and trying to isolate him when he'd done nothing wrong. It's no way to live.

You commented too that he's not working on being more open and vulnerable. This crap has been going on a long time, and is making you obviously unhappy. Like you I tried with various exes to discuss what needed work, to try and get them to work with me; it was never consistent if at all. It was always "get out of trouble until she's mad again, then feed her more BS promises". This is not good enough, and it's why I left, you can't be the only person making an effort in the relationship. Again, not telling you to leave, but telling you what I wouldn't put up with in your place, relative to what I know of the situation (here I reinforce that it is your needs and your experience you have to refer to and trust, the bits both known and unknown to others).

I'm glad to hear you are reimagining your life, without the resignation to impossible realities. I think this is a great step toward valuing yourself.

I hope work is demanding in a good way. Glad your daughter has had a good time over the holidays with her friends. I hope you've made time for you around attending to her social stuff. The knitting is probably a good sign of that, nice work.

I don't know what to say about your eldest D. As you say, it's out of your control and it isn't great to keep beating yourself up over it. If she becomes a mother herself she just may come to realise how it's been for you and why nothing is black and white as she thinks it is now. Just maybe.

On one hand I agree with EM about the difficulties of single parenting and the horrors of family law. On the other, I've lived with miserable parents and I've lived in miserable relationships. Despite what followed, I was thankful when my parents divorced. Believe me when I say the misery of the parent is visited upon the children, it does them no service to stay when it's ruining you, they just get hurt and learn from the example (i.e. your self-love is better for them too). Again despite what followed I was thankful to be out of each bad relationship. Few things are harder to survive than trying to have a life with someone who just doesn't care.

Kind thoughts.

Blue.

[Jstar49]

Hi beautiful supportive people!
I feel like I’m doing that classic backflip. H and I had a really nice, no pressure talk today, and he’s open to following up on counselling, and he wants to stop reacting to things I do and say, and ideas I have for the house. ( I want to build a treehouse!)

He hates it that he sees himself reacting like his dad. We talked about our marriage, and how each of us sees it, what we want to get out of it, I guess. And the real cost to us deciding that it’s not working. Looking at it not just from our own short sighted self centred perspective. Acknowledging how many people would be impacted by us if we decided we couldn’t make it work anymore. Friends, family, celebrations, T.
He spoke about letting the pressure of work etc get to him. Age old excuse, but I guess one he’s learned from his father.
It was nice, after an evening celebrating a friends birthday, to kinda reset.
I know he’s not the most amazing supportive empathic guy, but he’s my kids dad, and he’s not too bad, most of the time.
it’s not so much the thing of being a single parent, even tho that sux. It’s the way our lives are so entwined, and it creates a stability for all of us. For H and his work, for me and mine, and for T. We work together to keep things running smoothly. That’s why it’s so hard when one of us drops the ball.
Anyway. Thankyou both for encouraging me to seek better for myself.
Today, that means asking for more from my relationship with him.

Tomorrow, we wait and see if small improvements continue to be made!

Em, I’m not sure if I follow you really Demon- du mean that the ravages of time and addiction had changed him beyond recognition?
I imagine that you, on the other hand, have only grown more beautiful #

Cheers,

J*

[Jstar49]

Dearest Blue,

I agree with your last statement, that few things are more damaging than attempting to be in relationship with someone who doesn’t care. I feel like I have come a long way in that department, of being able to step back and allow others to choose whether they want to be in relationship with me, and if so they will choose to invest in it. (Effin families, for eg lol)

so tonite H chooses to be in relationship, and shows he cares. We live to fight another day!

My d on the other hand, well she also has a choice. You’re right, it’s not always black and white. Rarely perhaps.
it’s funny. I was talking to a young woman last night, 13 yrs old, and after the bbq was over and I was thinking about that connection I made with this girl, I realised that it was my experience of my own d’s difficult years combined with my remorse and desire to do better, that led me to try and break thru her teenage shell of indifference. I wished that I could have shared that with my d, the things I learnt by being her mum. How that continues to be important in my life.
life’s funny hey. What seems to be the most devastating event becomes merely bittersweet, with a gift for another wrapped up in it.
love you heaps,

J *