Questioning some things

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Those of you who know me know I have been bouncing from one rough life event to another for years, without really any time to take a breath in between. I can state well enough the things that have happened to me, but haven't had much energy to delve deeply into what those things have done to me. In the time off work since my partner had major surgery (yup, another fun crisis), I had time to start pulling at threads, to get a Mental Health Care Plan, see a psych and talk to a counsellor. As much as I always knew my life has been a steaming pile of crap, the threads I am pulling are connecting dots and giving rise to possible clarifications of events and what has arisen in their wake.

My childhood was severely neglectful. Mostly emotionally, but also in some physical ways. We kids didn't sleep in the (perfectly good) house, we slept in a caravan nearby - Mum cleaned up her and Dad's bedroom and the kitchen after the mouse plagues, but apparently our rooms weren't worth the effort. He carries on about her "unfit" parenting, but it's not like Dad did anything about it either. We were fed and clothed well enough. Never a lot of attention from either of them. I don't remember a single hug from either one during my childhood. Mum would immediately disinfect her hands if by some chance she came to touch one of us. Some years later, post parental divorce, Mum's settlement money ran out and we endured a brief stint without a home, a much longer (years) stint of inadequate food and no hot water.

I actually became pretty functional after moving out. Worked, studied, maintained a place on my own. Went through a couple of less than healthy relationships and endured with surprising resilience. Then came the last relationship. First two years, no major problems. Then bam, he's unfaithful. Enter ol' Blue's depression, that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. Damn fool remained in contact with him and we tried again at the relationship. To be fair, he didn't repeat that particular mistake. He tried hard to redeem himself and be a better partner. Until the ring was on the finger. Engagement in place, all effort fell away little by little. Dear gods did the neglect become overwhelmingly severe. I kind of got that there was a theme, but it's literally only now, years after breaking up with him, that I see why it was that straw that began my depression - just how closely what he did mirrored my parents' behaviour.

[ecomama]

Hey Blue!

This thread has sprouted off into all sorts of veins of thought.

I think we ALL think the same way! hahaha. Makes for a very mixed bag of responses darling girl. Hope you can cope with it!
Seems you very well can while I'm getting a bit dizzy lol.

OH YEAH I'M fine with using the word "adultery". Let's go the whole shebang.
More on that later but I can see this had major impact on you. Massive hugs, it stinks!

It had major impact on me too "for a while". I was able to shut them down, shut them out, basically axe them from my life and 99% from my mind and use this power and space to RISE. Just like a Phoenix.
Pity one was my 'father' lol! But whatevs.
He seemed to be somewhat similar to a mix of your dads but with a God complex. He thought he was God I think.
NOT violent to me.
Mountains of FV between parents.
Zero unavailability to talk about emotions with me.
Pretty hard on me with education & financial advice (with zero help in either).
NO support whatsoever since about 5yo.
ALWAYS disappointed in me but yeah who cares lol. He could hardly say anything to me about the adulterous Hs I'd had the misfortune to encounter could he? so yeah. He's dead now.

OH the thing I wanted to peg on was Schemas. Just Google 'Schemas in Psychology' and all else but woah SO MUCH to read there!
Makes SO MUCH sense! Hope it does to you too!

This information could be quite confrontational, so may need a ***Trigger Warning*** esp if one doesn't have MH support to bounce off of, ways to diffuse, ways of being detached.
Maybe if you're just beginning to explore childhood trauma.
HUGS and hope it's FREEING rather than re-traumatising.

It was for me!
I could see the jigsaw puzzle of my life looking back and the patterns that occurred.

Be back later, bit of a headache this arv... need to get onto my thread then have a rest.
Love EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Thanks. The value in kids books is the information is distilled down into something easy to digest, and a bit less overloaded with "marketing" strategies, i.e. rhetoric to appeal to X or Y type of audience. Sure it's made to appeal to kids, but the scope is a bit different. On the subject of father's roles, I have known a few men who chose to be stay-at-home dads. It's a small percentage but change begins slowly with a brave few who openly embrace something other than what everyone else is doing.

I'll have a goosie at your thread some time, when I'm a bit less wiped out by work. Your dad sounds like a piece of work, J*. Not that I'm saying mine is a great guy, but at least he's consistent. Cold, I would say doesn't know himself at all, from a lack of willingness to introspect, only understands superficial details about others. I'm sorry you got such a dismissive response when you confronted your father about his abuse. Unfortunately abusers aren't renowned for taking responsibility.

That's a prime example of how our environments growing up shape us. I'm sure there are resources on addressing repressed anger and how to express it in healthy ways. Not something I've had to look up. Maybe start with journalling about it? When my ex and I were trying to rebuild our relationship post-infidelity, he was genuinely afraid of me at times - I did nothing more than raise my voice, but the fury at what he did was clear. He was reacting partly to that and the justification I had, partly to childhood memories. I wound up holding the anger in, to (try to) communicate with him, which festered and turned inward; it became a large part of my depression. I need my anger, it is a lifeline to me.

No, I wasn't afraid of my parents' anger. It was rarely directed my way, mostly at circumstances, sometimes at each other. A bit of yelling. Occasionally after an argument with Dad, Mum would fling some glass jars at the concrete out the back to let it out. It didn't crop up that often, mostly we lived in an emotional vacuum.

I know a lot of people get carried away with thoughts during meditation. I get the sense it's usually instead of the exercise not as well as it, though. That's what I was referring to.

Sound advice, observing thoughts and sensations during triggered moments. Not judging, that's tough. But worth a try.

Blue.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

The more the merrier. Mixed responses - no problemo.

It's an ugly word, but appropriate for an ugly thing. Yeah, unfortunately. That is a point of shame in itself, having let it get to me so much. Ugh. The perpetrator of it is well and truly gone from my life. The trauma symptoms, less so. Watered down, but still there.

Another lousy dad. Awesome. Shame it's so common. I hope you're not struggling with lack of closure with him gone.

Ah good, a specific search term. If I'm expecting triggers and pick my moments to look at such things I should do okay. With research - even on things like that - I tend to step into a more intellectual space than an emotional one. Even talking with you on this thread, I'm covering the events but not really feeling the stuff that goes with them - academic brain takes the driver's seat. It's the sort of exploration I need. Even what we've covered on here so far has lightened the load a tad (in the "feeling" moments, when I'm not typing). Like you, I am using my research to identify patterns, among other things.

Re your last post on "personality based" vs "character based" people, and unrepentant (perfectly good word) adulterers... I certainly wouldn't count my ex as unrepentant. He did take responsibility, he didn't make excuses or blame me, and he lived the consequences of his actions every day - his regret led him into depression. He believed he had principles and ethics, found out when it came down to it, he didn't. Not a nice thing to learn about oneself. To be fair, he didn't repeat that particular error. The problem with him is he didn't learn the fundamental lessons about what led him down that path to begin with - he never learnt to communicate. Despite my efforts to teach him. Damn fool.

I am entirely aware his actions had nothing to do with me. I know I dodged a bullet. Intellectually, it all makes sense. The emotions, though. They're still the kid getting beaten over the head with the sign that says "You don't matter". But imagine an impartial and impatient adult telling a crying child any of that - that's the relationship my mind and emotions have with each other. I actually think on two separate tracks a lot of the time, my mind and emotions just do their own things entirely separately, but simultaneously.

Hope having a rest helps with that headache, EM. Headaches suck.

Blue.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Interesting little note. I've been keeping a journal that my counsellor also sees (admittedly written with that in mind). I cut and pasted my introductory posts from here into it, with the question "Am I experiencing PTSD?" at the end of it. Today came her response. Beginning simply, "Yes you are", followed by some links and articles on the topic. I'll still be bringing the same question to my psych, but there is something to be said for having some validation.

[ecomama]

Dear Blue

PLEASE don't think I wasn't negatively affected by the series of adultery actioned by my father and hs. OMG they completely shaped EVERY part of my life!

Homelessness, extreme poverty, starvation etc as a child bec of it.
Repeat in adulthood so many times.

Sweet thing, the effects were tremendous, beyond belief for me, my brother AND my children.
Alexa brought up alot last night, even, the root cause was adultery & other addictions her father (want to say sperm donor) had. Still has.
Then her "step-father" aka demon.

I sincerely hope I didn't project the air of "whatevs" too much!
I would never ever intend to diminish the impact. NO WAY!

I won't go back to my worst stuff & spill it out for you.

Just know I hear you & have your back about this at all times.

It stinks like a cesspool! I used tell demon to slither back to the cesspool from whence it came.

I can see how my talk about it appeared dismissive.
I'm so sorry.

Thankyou for being candid, you can ALWAYS be candid with me.
I appreciate it!!!

I appreciate YOU.

That leads to how we feel about ourselves!
You are so freaking awesome.

I see those adulterers as mammals who cared more about their little member ie themselves than anyone else.
They USED others for their own satisfaction.

BUT all that was not about me.
It wasn't a reflection on me nor you nor any betrayed spouse.
Their behaviour & actions is ALL on them.

Anyway my perspective about it all is far more extreme than I could share here lol!

You were right to feel betrayed bec you were betrayed.

I'm sorry that the Counsellor said you have PTSD but it's more about how YOU feel about that than anything I could say about it.

How do you feel about it?

If you are okay with it then ofcourse I am okay with it.

Oh and about the word "lofty" I used, I meant it's really hard for me to put the imagery, reactions, emotions, experiences, into words when describing 'episodes' (for want of a better word lol).
I use 'lofty' words, don't want to.

I went from having NO diagnoses over the years to the Psych this year diagnosing me with STACKS! I had the headsup from my Counsellor's Head Psych that I had PTSD but we kept it under the radar for 5y the duration of Courts. I have added PTSD FROM the Courts' processes, so throw that on the pile too.
And too much more.
They didn't occur all of a sudden.

Hugs. Hope you feel okay, even hopeful you feel good about the diagnosis. Do I dare hope that much dear Blue?

EMxxxx

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Morning EM,

Oh dear, I certainly wouldn't suggest what you've been through wasn't hard on you. Nor did I think for a second you were being dismissive or diminishing my experience. I think I know you better than that at this point, it just isn't your style. You said "I can see this had major impact on you", and that was a simple statement of honest observation. When I referred to shame about that, it was about my judgement of myself in relation to the truth of that statement, not about anyone else's. You've probably picked up that I am a proud person and I value my strength - I can be quite hard on myself for vulnerability and to be honest, feel somewhat betrayed by my own reactions as giving unworthy people more power than they deserve. Clearly healing from here is more about being open and allowing space for feeling that stuff and anger won't serve my cause well, so I'm somewhat out of my area of expertise. Grr!

I'm sorry you experienced homelessness, extreme poverty and starvation in relation to your father's adultery (I certainly don't expect you to "go back to your worst stuff & spill it out" - heck no!). I've been through similar things, albeit with separate root causes. Having an unfaithful partner was just the icing on the cake, later.

Funny you made the "sperm donor" comment about Alexa's father, Mum says exactly the same of mine. I'll give her points for open and frank conversations, she gets that right (though more so with me than the other two, which irks me), as you are doing with your kids.

I appreciate you too, EM, and indeed the candor of our conversations. It's quite refreshing.

Agreed - the adulterers in our lives gave no consideration to us, it was entirely about them. No blinkers on about that. There actions = betrayal, selfishness, disregard, plain and simple. Got a few expletive-laden thoughts about all that, myself.

Thanks, I understand your meaning of "lofty". I think of it more as "dramatic". I really do hate drama.

I feel fine about my diagnosis. Obviously I'd rather not have PTSD or all the crap it sprang from, but it is what it is - have asked my counsellor further questions about CPTSD (which I didn't know was a thing before last week), as I think there's more to it. I'll let you know what she has to say on that. For me, having answers - a starting point to work from in improving things - is hugely important. Never let it be said I won't look an ugly truth in the face. Now ol' Blue's gonna crash tackle it!

Blue.

[ecomama]

Hey Blue

I hope I didn't diminish YOUR experience. I really didn't intend to. I'm sorry if anything I said had that impact on you. Hugs.

I don't want to be a source of further trauma! 😮

Okay, I had to read to the end to find out how you felt about the PTSD label for you.
Good on you!

C-PTSD is what I have.
It just means "Complex" and apparently it refers to both childhood and adulthood trauma.
That sounds very convenient and streamlined.

I think the reality of C-PTSD IS COMPLEX. Funny that!

So for me it's like an overlapping Venn diagram! LOL! Welcome to my mind my precioussss.

So let's say the left hand side has childhood trauma... the "traumas" in difft coloured circles would be events like; moving to Australia - losing "my" culture, FV, deaths, house burning down, poverty experiences etc.
Then on the RHS adulthood traumas; shock of infidelities - separately, separation, divorce, all the abuses, parenting alone, loss of family, DV, FV, COURTS, Police involvement, secondary trauma from children's traumas, all else.

Now what to do with it all. Moreso HOW to process it. Where do you PUT it all?

These were my Goals with the Trauma Psych this year... (sic)
* to be able to "file" these memories away as faint memories
* not to have them be intrusive thoughts.
* not to have ANY triggers create the full on PTSD reactions.

It worked because I worked so hard on it this year.

The MAJOR thing I did NOT want to do or even recognise as helpful was self-care lol!!!
Then I had it repeated and repeated and REPEATED over and over again by my Counsellor, my psych, ALL the helpline psychs, ALL the online research on PTSD and here!

So there was no escaping the absolute fact that self-care aides recovery.

I kinda had to give in lol, suck it up and begin to accept self-care as more than a daily thang... but many multiple things throughout the day.

Like you, I'm stubborn.
But we're pretty smart cookies! LOL!

So once we GET IT, we get it.

I could go through ALL the exposure therapy, full on rolling PTSD, massive amounts of homework the psych gave me, ANYTHING at all lol!
Then hearing I had to do self-care omg it was like TWO four letter words in ONE.
UGH!
I argued, resisted blah blah blah...

No just do it lol. Happy you're joining me!

Love EM

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

You didn't, we're all good. Just breathe, friend!

CPTSD is a simple title for a thing that isn't simple, certainly. Complex, just as it says. I would say I definitely fit the description of having multiple traumas. That makes it so much harder to quantify what's going on with my reactions to everything, so much is overlapping.

I heartily approve of the Venn diagram (and the Gollum-style introduction to it, haha).

Far out, your house burnt down, as well? Plus I guess culture shock atop all the other stuff I already knew about. There really isn't anything you haven't been through, is there? Heck, even a cold fish like me is willing to offer a hug for that. In these conversations, I have often thought you've copped everything I have, amped up tenfold, and still here you are. There's hope for ol' Blue, yet.

You said: "HOW to process it. Where do you PUT it all?" That's the stage I'm at. Two out of three of your goals are among mine, also. I thankfully don't have any real episodes of PTSD at this point, but memories and intrusive thoughts, still pretty full on sometimes. I guess looking at it that way, I've done a decent job of healing on my own, even not knowing what it was or the "official" strategies for coping. Still, not saying no to a shortcut to finishing the job now I know what I'm playing with.

Whatever made you so resistant to self-care? It's something I was working on even in the dark of my experience without having heard anyone use the term at the time. I did things for myself, to try and lift my state of mind out of the mire I was in. I'm glad the message eventually got in there for you, it's a powerful and useful tool.

I chuckled at you pegging me as stubborn. Not in resisting self-care, but I'm definitely that. Wouldn't be alive now without it, I'm sure. Exposure therapy, now that's the four letter words for me! Maybe self-care didn't seem like "work", so you couldn't get your head around it as a healing strategy? A bit like me trying to get my head around having to just feel the PTSD things, and "allowing" for that experience. In my world strength has been defined as hardness, emotionlessness, going on regardless (yup, grew up in a very traditional/conservative environment) - and I pride myself on having those traits - flipping that on its head to heal is profoundly unpleasant to me and does not come naturally.

I agree, glad to share the self-care journey with you, EM. Maybe there I can be the one teaching you some things. 😛

Blue.

[ecomama]

Hey Blue

Yep house burnt down. Awful.
But there's so much horrific stuff I haven't revealed on BB.
It's really impossible to believe.
There it is lol.
+ If someone worked hard enough, they'd know who I was if I revealed. So much has been in the news.

What made me so resistant to self-care?
Missionary Parents!
"Service" x your whole life.
Live for others.
Give NOTHING to yourself.
Give EVERYTHING you have to others.
I had to donate all my presents from Santa.

1 example. When I went to buy a piece of underwear with my aunty that many girls want / need in teenage years (mother refused to take me), I was called all sorts of derogatory names for wearing it by her - was called names before I knew what they meant!
I was ALWAYS very modest, chose modest underwear. NO LACE. Never satin etc.
I had to wash them at friend's houses.

That was then.

About 7y ago was some of the WORST acts.
Looking back, I was clearly (re)traumatised to the nth degree. I shook for a solid 18 months.
When children held my hand, they asked why I was shaking.
demon wouldn't leave, hell on wheels.

Before that for 25y, since police took mother away after being held hostage by her, I kind of 'held it together'. I had "episodes" of PTSD from mother and demon simultaneously - overlapping. Sought help, no one mentioned PTSD.

In Courts, ending recently, I endured years of incompetencies by authorities and we were on the bones of our behinds. When the last cases came I PUSHED forward with all the Study of Law I could muster and DROVE it all the way.
I didn't rely on ANY one else but myself (and God's guidance).
I TOLD MY LAWYER'S AND BARRISTERS WHAT TO DO.
And won.

My Counsellor told me I had PTSD.

By the time things "calmed" somewhat this year, Covid hit putting BF in the front line in the U.S.
My kids & I are ALL front line / essential workers so worked far more during shut downs.
3 more Police events in a short span, that was it.
I needed to see a Trauma Psych. I hoped whatever she could give me would help.
3 sessions of good help. 2 crap sessions. I got out lol.

I studied HEAPS.

So my point is that I "managed" for decades until I absolutely couldn't.
The PTSD expanded in it's diversity is all I can describe it as in a nutshell.

Maybe I might have got help had I been diagnosed earlier by one of he psychs I'd seen but it all came out in (God's) time. There are legal reasons why it was perfect timing.
Not to mention being on BB.

Hope this makes sense!
Love EM

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

Funny how some people cop so much and others just sail peacefully through life, isn't it? One part of the problem is when we start life in dysfunction it is normalised and we tend to find ourselves in similar situations (often worse) because they are familiar. Even when we're consciously working against it, I guess the subconscious sees something that isn't obvious and leads us there anyway. Cute joke, universe. I don't blame you for not revealing details, keep your identity safe, friend.

Ah, okay. How'd your mum manage to hoard so much crap, then? Just wondering. There's that hypocrisy that comes so often in dysfunctional people. Sorry you got treated so poorly just for getting some underwear. Absurd.

I'm sure you know it by now, but I'll take this moment to remind you that self-care is as essential to being there for others as it is for ourselves on an individual level. Taking care of ourselves rebuilds our energy and our strength, along with our openness and willingness to give. That is to say, we have a lot more and a lot better to give others when we care for ourselves, and we won't be so strung out and depleted that we resent the act of giving or are hurt by it. Everyone wins when we take care of ourselves.

I think re-traumatising is the thing that pushes us over the edge. Whilst I didn't have the extremities you did, I have some knowledge of holding it together after parental failure, only to lose the plot from a relationship following suit. You think you're past it, you're seeking better, then BAM, you suddenly find yourself in exactly the same crap, except worse. It's wholly understandable you have struggled with it.

Incompetent professionals are a feature of my life, too. It sucks we have had to deal with that, and fight so hard just to live with some degree of peace. No-one mentioned PTSD for me either, but that's on me, I'm still figuring out how to talk about those things.

I hear you about covid, I'm a front liner too, ol' Blue in her crappy supermarket job is an essential worker. Hardy har. I was working more too, among people who do NOT social distance, with my very vulnerable and unwell partner at home. We were apart for two months, I was too much of a danger to him during the worst of it.

Sorry your trauma psych wasn't madly useful. I hear you about managing until you just can't, that's been me too. I guess we get to a point where just about everything is a trigger, it sucks.

It makes sense, EM.

Blue.