C-PTSD and fear of people

[Eagle Ray]

Warning: possibly trauma activating content.

I have made significant improvements in complex trauma symptoms in the past year. One of my biggest fears is that people are going to harm me which is ever-present but had lessened a lot. Then on Monday I got triggered by something that is probably not harmful but activated terror in me. It’s too much to explain the context here.

Do others have this extreme fear of people and if so is there something that you’ve found helps you?

To me it is experienced as life threatening terror. I can feel my body literally recoil from any contact with humans. Animals are safe to me but not humans. I have experienced a lot of trauma throughout my life.

Over the past week I’ve had unrelenting anxiety which yesterday also became depression which I know is a result of the anxiety not resolving. I want to run away from all people and go somewhere remote in nature. I’m also dealing with bouts of cognitive confusion linked to an autoimmune condition I have which isn’t helping.

I know self-isolation is not a good or healthy long term strategy. However, I want total isolation from people right now. It is the only way I can feel safe. It can feel like this is the only way I can be safe in life, to avoid people as much as possible, even though there is part of me that loves people and wants connection. But right now connection feels profoundly dangerous. I am back in the centre of my childhood terror.

Right now the Bruce Springsteen song Brothers Under the Bridge is speaking to me in which a Vietnam veteran tries to explain his need for isolation to his daughter. I think my grandfather was like this in how he isolated from others following traumatic war experiences. I think I’m trying to work my way out of this inherited intergenerational trauma as well.

[Eagle Ray]

Thanks Tony,

 I don’t need an ensuite so happy to save costs in that area. I only have a very old little car though but it may be able to tow a small, light caravan. The Avan Weekender looks so cute! And the Aliner is like a little, pointy house. It’s something for me to think about.

 I didn’t see Purple Rain until just after Prince died and they did a screening at the cinema. I found the scene you mentioned really moving and how Prince responded in the moment to that situation felt really real. I’d suggest to anyone though to take care with it if you have a trauma history as it can be triggering. I read somewhere that when Prince saw the script he felt it connected a lot with his own life, so he really seemed to be living the part in those intense scenes.

My boundary issues have been around friendships and relationships where I feel the other person’s neediness and projections are starting to engulf me. It’s just so hard to feel safe. I only want people in my life now where boundaries are really healthy and I know I need to keep doing good work around boundaries to make healthy relationships more likely. I’m thankful for several very stable non-stressful friendships that I keep reminding myself are the markers of healthy and normal.

I’m sorry you had that shock with your brother when 12. Yes, those things can affect us so much. I don’t think I have dysthymia, but then maybe I have in a transitory way for periods of time. I’ve been diagnosed with complex ptsd, anxiety and depression. But I know my core nature is actually someone who loves life and has a naturally happy side, so it’s taken me a long time to accept the part that actually does experience depression for periods of time. I’m definitely an HSP, without a doubt.

Part of the issue is my life has been so focussed on helping and supporting others that I’ve hardly recognised my own needs. That includes not fully recognising how much I’ve been struggling in particular areas emotionally. So a pattern of not just telling others I’m fine all the time but convincing myself of that as well. It’s taken me a long time to open up to people about my own vulnerabilities and to ask for help.

Anyway, I’ll go to bed now with the happy thought of the cute little Avan Weekender:)

[white knight]

We actually owned a ChevronRV GUPPY, it is the same as the weekender but has a sink and fridge. The weekender is a copy. 

Empaths think of others first and that can lead to paranoia levels. My father had it big time as I've mentioned earlier. People see them as ultra kind but they damage themselves. The remedy is no contact with humans. 

Dont know if you recall but 5 times I left the city and headed for the mountains in my 20's. I wasnt thinking rationally, I'd pack up my motorbike and off I'd go. On the way up there I'd think yo myself, if I run out of fuel I'd ditch the bike and walk... I didnt care, but for some survival reason I'd refuel. Once up there I'd cry, remain frozen on a clifftop and eventually realise I wont make it to where I wanted to go, which I didnt have a destination. Weird. On the 5th occasion I realised that half way, somewhere in the country might be the answer and it was. I had a house built in a hamlet.

I think you feelings and projections/fear of humans is part of that "unrealistic" thoughts (trying not to be a therapist here) because most people are actually kind and harmless. You dont feel safe yet I'm guessing there is no direct threat?

In the thread "anxiety, how I eliminated it" I admit my anxiety took 22 years to be eliminated. I felt free of it in 2012. Yet lately it has returned a bit. Admittedly my whole lifestyle now revolves around prevention rather than cure. This state of mind is easier to reach its goals than cure, is of course more real and achievable. But I was in danger of hermitizing many times to get to that protected castle.

Have you read this post first page? It might help with human contact.

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/relationship-and-family-issues/fortress-of-survival/td-p/216226

There's part 2 also.

Thankyou for opening up to us. I feel honoured. 

TonyWK

[Eagle Ray]

Dear Tony,

Thank you for being so kind. And thank you for the link. I remember reading it before now so I think you sent it to me before. Yes, I think those of us who are sensitive need to manage our contacts with people with care. It is very sensible and necessary for self-preservation. I’ll have a look for Part 2.

 I agree that actually most people are safe and my fears are most often unfounded. However, I’ve found when I get a particularly bad gut feeling it has turned out to be a situation of concern. Because of the pattern I learned from my mother growing up, depending on me as if I was her parent, I’ve had many instances of people clinging to me in the same way over many years. It’s like I have a sign on my head that says patient, kind, accommodating and nurturing person. This has led to certain types of people sticking to me like super glue very quickly and not letting go. It’s been draining and exhausting to deal with.

This morning I worked with my psychologist on shifting my body language. There is something about me that has a certain kind of open vulnerability that leads to these intense attachments from others. So I’m practising holding myself taller and holding my personal space in a stronger way so that people get I have a boundary, hopefully before even any verbal communication. My whole orientation to the world has been sensing others who are struggling and being responsive to that without stopping to properly see whether that is wise and without even reflecting whether it suits my needs or not. I never had a choice as a child, but I’m finally getting that as an adult I have a choice about what I do with whom and when and it is normal to take care of my own needs as a priority.

In complex ptsd this pattern is known as the fawn response. The way of thinking is, if I am kind to this person they may not hurt me. Also, if I can help this person be more ok then I will be more ok. What this translates from childhood is, if I can help my mother be less sad, stressed etc then I will be safer. It’s incredible how primal and ingrained these responses are and it can take years to fully see clearly what is happening. But I really feel I am making progress and it’s liberating to realise I am beholden to no one and I can live my life as I choose.

In some cases there have been direct threats from people I didn’t foresee, or had an inkling about but ignored, leading to me being harmed. So there have been some real dangers for me. But I do agree that in most cases people are fine.

 I’m glad you’ve worked out strategies for events that can be challenging such as Christmas. I spent the last two Christmases on my own for the first time and I was ok with it.

[Eagle Ray]

P.S. Hi again Tony. I just read Part 2 and it is a very helpful analogy for taking care to protect boundaries. Thank you 👍

[white knight]

Hi ER 

I'm gett8ng the feeling I'm benefiting from your posts more so than visa versa  lol.

I've been noting with interest your childhood obligations including parenting the parent. How we look up to parents like a Godly figure that can't be challenged is being left in a position of worship. I can draw one comparison with your mother and mine- insecurity. My mother could talk the legs off a table ( all the chair legs she talked if already 🙂 . Her methods were simple, praise those that listened for hours and condemn those that had no patience. She'd forget she'd told someone 4 times the same story. But it was her need to be comforted by anyone that was also left to us 3 kids. Sometimes she'd work herself up and start crying, we'd all be there hand on her shoulders, then the heater needed adjusting or a door needed closing and instantly she'd stop, do the tasks then go back to crying again. I learned before 12yo it was all a hoax, but it was indeed insecurity as well. 

Security for her came from- manipulation to gain care at another's expense, emotional blackmail,  choosing golden children often our cousins over us, playing victim and unnecessary discipline. 

Can any of that relate to your childhood (optional question ER 🙂

TonyWK 

[Eagle Ray]

Dear Tony,

 I am benefiting from your input and you are giving me an opportunity to talk about these things. It is only very recently that I’ve been so open about childhood challenges and I wouldn’t have disclosed much of it in the past. But I’m recognising the need to be real about what actually went on in my family.

Like with your mother, mine expected me to listen to her for hours. This started when I was 5 years old. I remember the actual first day of it which was her crying and telling me her problems. This would continue for my whole childhood. I remember sitting at the kitchen table with her while she intensely complained about everything. I learned to listen, be empathetic and try to help her feel better. If after 45 minutes or so I tried to communicate something of my own feelings or experience she didn’t respond at all. It was like my life and world didn’t exist. She would just go back to relentlessly talking about herself. I learned early on I couldn’t go to her with any worries I had as this would lead to a volatile attack and being told everything that was wrong with me. That is why I learned self-reliance early and not to ask others for advice or help.

My Mum made my brother the golden child just as your Mum did with your cousins. I was the scapegoat. Mum also scapegoated Dad. My Dad had a generalised volatile rage that he directed at my brother and I. The good thing about my Dad was he mellowed in my 20s and became much more approachable.

When I was 20 my mother’s mother took her own life. This really further messed up my mother. Her mother had been highly emotionally and physically abusive to my Mum as a child. My nanna deliberately only left something small to me in her will, something she knew was of value to my Mum. My Mum deeply resented that and seemed to hate me for it. I couldn’t understand why my nanna left something to me as she had no special relationship with me. About 20 years later it dawned on me it may have been to further hurt my mother from beyond the grave and try to damage her relationship with me. My manna was pretty sick and disturbed.

So, yes, some of what you describe about your Mum fits. But underneath the messed up stuff my Mum was actually a gentle soul, basically a traumatised child in an adult body. She would end up in fights with shop assistants and cafe workers over incredibly trivial matters. I would have to smooth the situation over and be the adult who calmed everything down. It was exhausting.

But I could always see the good in her. Our relationship improved a lot over about the last decade of her life. Then about a year before she died my brother had a go at her. Having her golden child attack her made her completely unravel again. Of course she attacked me even though angry at my brother. I watched her disintegrate in that last year while I was also caring for her through multiple health issues. Then she suddenly died from heart failure. It seemed literally a broken heart. It ripped me to pieces seeing the hope that had built within her and our relationship. Then it was all destroyed again. But I am now starting to heal a bit. Sorry, long story!

[white knight]

ER

I dont mind the long stories. 

There is many similarities so forgive me mentioning more of them of both out mothers and their history, it might help.

I recall my Auntie showing me her knee and saying "look at how swollen my knee is" I said "thats like my knee look".. to which she replied "dont be like your mother, I'm talking about my knee not yours". It was a reflection of decades of my auntie tolerating my mother talking about her medical issues.

I've always said to myself and others "My mother was a great nurturer, its everything else I found impossible to live with".  Being a nurturer made it harder for me to separate from her, in the end I came up with that saying. It's like having a lovely car without a steering wheel.

At 31yo I was incorrectly diagnosed with a heart attack. It was a panic attack and an incorrect ECG. I visited my parents for lunch that day and told them of this life changing diagnosis that would be overturned 3 months later. My mother sat and stared at me, me thinking she was rocked, then said "well I have to go to the doctor tomorrow about my eyes, I might have cataracts" Whenever she had a common cold it was always the flu- "bordering on pneumonia". She had a tupperware container of tablets and in front of people would put one in her mouth but not swallow for minutes as she spoke with it on her tongue so others noted she was taking it to encourage "what is that tablet for"?. Once my other auntie stayed over and upon seeing this got her box of tablets out and said "do you want a competition.?

But clearly the worst things said was to my dad. My brother a diabetic since 2yo had suicided 3 months earlier. Obviously my mother was demanding and ongoing grief was too much to bare for all of us. My father, a quiet, humble and beautiful man snapped "I've had enough I want you to see a doctor" and her reply "well, I'm the mother and mother grieve more than fathers, more than anyone". He walked out and had I not stopped him he would have kept going. They were married 42 years and I have no idea how he survived. My only complaint is he we ultra obedient to her and she used that loyalty for her objectives.

Your Nana leaving you that item instead of to your mother speaks volumes. The logic of your mother blaming you for your Nana's action typifies odd human behaviour really, I mean it wasnt your will!  Such might have been the jealousy involved. My mother would say "I'll cut you out of the will" when we were in our 20's and she in her 40's. She is now 92yo and her 2nd husband spent all her money which wasnt much. So in my 30'd I said- "take me out of your will so you can no longer use it as leverage to force me to comply." and "if I live as long as dad (64) and you your mother (95) you'll outlive me" her reply "I dont think so I'm not a well person".

So I've been estranged for 12 years with zero desire to re-unite. So 12 years with my sister and I creating a strong bond only to have her act exactly like her last xmas was a shock but the signs were there all my life she'd end up the same. That gut feeling I ignored.

TonyWK

[white knight]

See post above. I forgot something.

How to move on from childhood scars? I dont suggest you will be able to and you have your psych but there is this thread-

https://forums.beyondblue.org.au/t5/staying-well/who-cries-over-spilt-milk/td-p/43088

The post does include - when we are children we tend to over exaggerate incidences. Please dont take that personally as I know your account of things is accurate.

I'm suggesting some parts of your past can be overcome and others not possible. Eg when I said my mother was a good nurturer that allowed me to be real about her good side when very young and therefore honest with myself, but that didnt take away the flip side of not being able to live with her in my life. 

Are there fragments of your scars that you think you can conquer? And can you identify what cannot be overcome?

Curious.  TonyWK

[Eagle Ray]

Dear Tony,

Your Mum sounds a bit like my nanna. Apparently if my grandpa (my Mum’s father) ever got sick, my nanna would then always fall sick as well. So much so that one day my grandpa said to her, “Am I ever allowed to have a sickness on my own?” My mother was a little different. She did tell me all her emotional problems and also had health anxiety, but her ailments were real and she also suffered more than one incident of severe medical negligence while in hospital. It was very distressing for me to witness and obviously for her to go through. However, she would hold me responsible for her healing. She directly told me that I was responsible for making the osteoarthritis in her knees better. This was in the same tirade in which she told me I am the cause of all her problems in life. That was the irrationality I was dealing with.

It’s complicated because my mother had moments of rationality too, even wisdom at times. She described her own mother as a Jekyll and Hyde character, but in a way she was the same. I had no idea what innocent thing I’d do next that would trigger irrational explosive rage.

With regard to healing, I have actually done a lot already. From what I’ve written above it might sound like I haven’t forgiven my parents, but I actually have. I’ve realised both of them were displaying symptoms of mental illness. Their behaviour was harmful and not ok. There’s no excuse for it but I’ve been able to make sense of it.

Shortly after leaving home I remember returning to look for my childhood teddy bears that I’d left in a cupboard. They weren’t there. I asked Mum about them. She said, “I put them in the shed and they got moth eaten so I threw them all out”. I’m quite sure they hadn’t got moth eaten in that short time. She’d thrown things out of mine before, always things that might have been some comfort to me or had emotional significance. She actively wanted to cause hurt.

How do you come to terms with your mother wanting to hurt you? I was thinking about how you said your Mum tried to ruin your wedding. What has helped me is simply seeing that she was mentally ill. Her aggression was like that of a rescue dog who’s been severely mistreated and as a result snarls at others and potentially attacks them. I was eventually able to do some real healing work with my Mum through understanding her this way, but also had to accept there might be limits to that. As mentioned it all fell apart again and she died in a state of utter brokenness. Yet I felt her spirit was then finally free and that her presence was with me in a caring way after death. Too hard to explain quickly here.

The healing I still have to do now is actually the fear and trauma responses in my autonomic nervous system. That process is underway and a work in progress. It’s why I sought out a psychologist to do somatic work as I knew that was the only way I could get to those primal parts of myself. I may always have elements of fear but I’ve come along way from where I was as a young adult.

 I actually have gratitude for the efforts my parents did make to parent as best they knew how given both had traumatic childhoods. In later years if I was visiting then returning to my home at night, Mum would actually ask me to call her when I got hone (on the other side of the city) to make sure I was ok. She did actually care and love me without being able to express it in a lot of ways, but it was those things that gave me a sign she actually cared.

 I feel like I’m losing my brother now too who actually has some of Mum’s patterns, so maybe similar to you and your sister. My brother can cut cold to me emotionally like my mother did, go into a kind of void. So that’s another grief I’m processing.

[Eagle Ray]

P.S. I’m not sure if I answered your question very well, but I once read the expression that scar tissue is stronger than skin. So I think the scars can in fact build resilience (if you can get through the hurt, grief etc). I feel I am coming through now. I’m hugely grateful to my psychologist and also a guy I did a course with a few months ago that looks at how complex trauma stuff impacts the body and spirit. These people have been like beacons of light and also provided the stability missing from my childhood environment. They have co-regulated with me which is what healthy functioning parents do. So I think I’d say at this point I can’t put any limits on what my future healing will be. I’m optimistic by nature. I think too the fear responses I’m still working on can kind of transform into sensitive insight and wisdom. It’s like the sensitivity of the fear becomes like an acute awareness or insight that turns into compassion both towards myself and others. I don’t know if that makes sense?

 I think the key is to grow from whatever happens to you, not become bitter and stuck. I have struggled with forgiveness with some others who have been abusive and unkind to me more recently. I could feel really intense anger towards them but I knew that is really bad for my health and well being. But even that is now starting to heal, and that has involved me knowing I will permanently remain no contact with certain people, not to punish them but to protect myself while not being engulfed by rage towards them for what they’ve done.

So I’ve forgiven my parents and I think I’m coming to terms with others who I just know to keep a distance from now. I think the key thing has been becoming a good parent to myself which I’m gradually learning to do with kind and wise people giving me some guidance along the way. So I don’t want to say I can’t overcome certain things, because I may or may not. But the best I can do is live in the moment and continue to nurture myself.