Animal cruelty, climate change, monoculture...the list goes on.

[ChrissyStar]

I feel hopeless and have decided not to have children because of the state of the world (why would I wish to bring a child into this when I myself, do not like to live here?). Does anyone else feel the same?

[Unbeliever]

ChrissyStar (in response to your original post),

I was 8 years old when I realised that it would be a selfish act to have children in this world and that I wouldn't have any.... that was in 1985. Although my motivation was more based in that the world was already struggling to feed the people it already had on it (All those ads of starving children in Africa haunted me as a kid) and on top of that being seemingly incapable of preventing ourselves from sending other species to their extinction through basic stupidity.

In fact, before this I had always considered that "adults" despite making mistakes and obviously being imperfect... still overall were full of great wisdom, knowledge and had a grand plan that I simply didn't understand yet because I was still just a "stupid" kid. So this ended up being the point in my life that I realised that adults couldn't possibly know what the hell they were doing and their additional age and experience amounted to very little. My illusions about them had already been shattered.

Unsurprisingly, after this I became accused of not respecting "my elders" or not having "respect for authority" far too often in the proceeding 10 years of my life (by teachers, friends parents, general adults etc). But this made sense to me, age alone did not command respect, it was only the things a person did and the way they thought that earned "respect"... not just the "number of revolutions around our nearest star" (explaining this to adults of course did not exactly go down too well).

So by 8 years old it already seemed uttely obvious to me that if we as a species couldn't even manage to feed the children we already had, then anyone who ever felt desperate enough to want kids that adoption was obviously the only moral choice... anything else was pretty much too selfish for words (which as you can imagine has never exactly gone down very well with women I have had relationships with so far).

With regard to your comment about "the world". In early "teenagehood" I realised that my "hell" was not pits of fire and demons with pitchforks... it was being forced to be a member of a collectively apathetic (and quite stupid) species obliviously marching in its army of billions towards the destruction of not only itself, but almost everything else along with it.

So I have been embarrassed and ashamed to be human for almost as long as I can remember.

... basically, yes I can relate to your initial post.

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

All: thoughts and concerns about animal cruelty, climate change, monoculture, etc (as per the thread title) is most welcome 🙂

Chrissystar: I hope you, the thread creator, is doing okay. No pressure but if you feel like it, jump in any time 🙂

birdy: Thanks, I’ve been slowly getting through The Vegan’s Stategists posts 🙂 Yes, I completely agree that his deep and thoughtful (and very pragmatic) caring comes across loud and clear.

Yes, I liked the example you used. I’m with you that sometimes we have to take a step back from our initial reaction/emotional response, and research or think about the topic more before jumping to any one conclusion.

For all the flak they cop, and even if much of it is often justified, large corporations do have a lot of power to influence business trends and consumer demand. So, as you said, a small vegan cheese company being taken over by a large corporation isn’t always a bad thing.

In addition to their greater marketing and distribution power, it might also prompt other large corporations to also start introducing more vegan products too. So there’s a potential for a domino effect...

I found his comments about taking the vegan argument away from the “ethics” side and reframing it more along the lines of “plant based” might make more people open to it. He said meat eaters tend to be more open to the idea of upping their non-meat intake when it was framed differently. Really thought provoking stuff...

I’m all for a more collaborative approach too when it comes to climate change, animal cruelty, etc. I can only speak for myself but even before I read The Vegam Strategist, I feel extreme moral indignation or self righteous behaviour can be unhelpful in the long run.

Yes, there can be a place for it but I also feel it often makes people stop listening and emotionally shut down or even become extremely defensive. For example, certain methods used by well meaning animal rights activists makes me think “okay, I know you mean well but are you sure that’s the wisest approach?”

Your last paragraph really made me smile. Thank you for the beautiful words of support and encouragement. Your compassion and kindness are 2 of your strengths 🙂

Unbeliever: As always, I find it interesting and thought provoking to read your contributions. Hopefully Chrissystar is reading and maybe she’ll even reply 🙂

Pepper xoxo

[Unbeliever]

In regards to "Climate Change". I have become tired of all sides of this argument. It just makes me angry now.

This "debate" has already been lost because people on both sides (both anti and pro) exagerrated their facts over 10+ years and have completely sabotaged any chances of either side ever listening to "the other side" about anything (regardless of the quality of evidence) ever again.

This has resulted in people who could be standing on this planet while it is on fire and screaming "it's not climate change" because the environmentalist movement played it's hand too hard (making many mistakes) trying to get people to act "sooner rather than later"... and as a result got caught out exagerrating certain facts. This made a massive percentage of people worldwide think that... "if they needed to lie about X, therefore it ALL must be bullsh*t".

Now those people can literally never be swayed or convinced even to listen ever again. They have been made permenantly "anti".

This is the price of lying by exaggeration and certain organisations on both sides should be ashamed of themselves. Their lies have screwed us all, because now the percentage of the population needed to make the change cannot happen within the time left to do it.

So now the debate has to shift away from "climate change" to get those stubborn people to shift towards new methodologies and technologies... because if they try to stick to the same arguement, action will never be taken in time for things to not get worse than they are already going to be. Unfortunately, It is far too late already to "stop" it, but any action taken soon will reduce at least some of the damage. But, the "climate change" argument has to stop as soon as possible in order to get the numbers needed for change.

We need to refocus attention to promote new technologies and methodologies (that just happen to "Planet Friendly") as the latest and greatest modern "must own" tech and the obvious choice... and describe all other "Earth Damaging" technology and methodology as "archaic" and embarrassingly ancient for any so-called "advanced" civilisation.

This is our best chance to subvertly achieve the same required goals, and of converting the people needed to make change ASAP who will not be convinced by any "climate change" argument.

The climate debate has converted as many people as it is going to, it's already hit its potential limit.

The strategy needs to evolve otherwise any actions will come far too late.

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Unbeliever (a wave to Chrissystar),

Good to hear from you 🙂 I get what you mean by finding new and perhaps more practical strategies and agree that’s hugely important. I personally have little interest on pursuing things from a hardcore “moral”/“ethical” angle either... my the main belief is to do what works...

Yes, promote eco friendly new technology as “planet friendly” (as you suggested), call vegan dishes “plant based” if it means more people will be willing to try them at restaurants, continue marketing and “selling” being “green” as “trendy” and “cool” if it means people are more likely to do a bit more to help the environment, etc, etc.

I feel to make the most out of this that it’s helpful to understand what drives and motivates people in terms of their behaviour. Is it status that drives a particular purchasing pattern? Is a certain behaviour really about convenience? Is it about affordability?Is it about a deeply ingrained cultural practice? Is it a habit? Etc, etc...

Then use that understanding of people to inform innovation (e.g. little point creating a super eco friendly device if it’s completely unaffordable to most of your target group...back to the drawing board lol) as well as help influence purchasing (and other) behaviours...

Thanks Unbeliever 🙂 So yes to a pragmatic and innovative approach as far as I’m concerned. Feel free to let me know if I’ve misinterpreted or misunderstood anything in your post. I have to go now...talk later.

Pepper

[Unbeliever]

Yes, pretty much. Very close.

Except, I don't even think that selling new tech should even necessarily have the "eco-friendly" tag as its main selling point (inherantly most groundbreaking new tech currently is more environmentally friendly anyway... more efficient, using new fuel types, designed to be "future" upgraded rather than just replaced, self charging etc).

I think that simply pushing the idea of the newest, the latest, the most recent example of modern ingenuity and that old tech is outdated, primitive, archaic and even kind of pathetic and laughable by modern standards... is far more "sellable" to those who don't really care about the environment. As it is those people that it is the most important to get on board at this point.

Nowadays, there are people who will line up for days just to be "the first" to get the latest gadget (even though their "1 year old version" still works perfectly fine). For these people the concept of things like sustainability or reducing wastefulness just doesn't exist... and ironically it is these people that it is most important to make a large movement happen.

Even the less fanatical about "owning the latest" proudly love to show off that they own a brand spanking new technology to others. This vanity can be exploited to get support from people who otherwise never would join an environmental movement.

Basically, the climate change debate is dead. People will endlessly "bark" at each other over the internet for the next 10 years and nothing will change. The damage that will result from 10 years of additional time wasting will be devastating.

New tactics need to be employed now, today, yesterday. And if too large a percentage of people can't be convinced to do the right things for the right reasons, then those peoples weaknesses need to be manipulated to inadvertently do the right thing.

I don't see a better option anymore.

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

Unbeliever: Thanks 🙂 I just re-read what you wrote and realised I had misread. Sorry, it sometimes happens when I’m in a rush. Thanks so much for picking up on it and clarifying.

Absolutely yes, there is considerable resistance and I agree with you that some people will, no matter what research is presented, insist that climate change is a myth. Granted, that’s not the group that I am most interested in...

I feel there are people who do believe in climate change but they lack adequate motivation to make any personal changes in their behaviour/consumption patterns despite having concerns. This is the group that has enormous power....

A simple and very common example is people saying ” I should probably stop using takeaway cups and buy my own (reusable) cup” or “I keep forgetting to bring my (reusable) cup” as they line up to buy coffee.

What I’m trying to say is I feel it’s not that (some) people necessarily don’t believe or don’t care about certain environmental issues. But sometimes it’s not enough...good intentions don’t always result in action. I suppose this is where innovation plus changing the shopping environment to make the eco friendly choice the more convenient and easier option (convenience shouldn’t be underestimated) can help.

I feel it helps to remember that sometimes certain behavioural changes precede value changes. What starts off as a change for health/convenience/other reasons can sometimes evolve into a change in values.

To use a personal example. As a vegetarian myself, I see this happen...some people become vegetarians initially for spiritual, religious or health reasons but later remain vegetarians or even become vegan to help animals (i.e. values have changed).

Of course I know that example is not the same as tackling climate change at a broader societal level. But what I’m saying is beliefs/thoughts can shift over time...it won’t be easy or overnight of course.

I feel it’s helpful to make people feel empowered, and to mostly avoid using guilt tripping tactics or be really pushy when trying to encourage people to change. I think most people (understandably) don’t respond well to being made to feel “bad.” Also I think it helps to celebrate any small changes that people make, and to encourage them to continue making more small changes...

In short, I am all for an innovative, pragmatic, strategic and encouraging/understanding approach 🙂

I would be interested to hear what you/others think?

Pepper

[Birdy77]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

I am reading and nodding Unbeliever and Pepper. I am experiencing a bit of brain fog at the moment, but I really appreciate reading both your posts, both of you.

I was completely dismayed this morning to read of a pilot whale passing away after trying to be helped off the coast of Thailand, vomited 5 plastic bags before dying, and they found 80 more plastic bags in his stomach. Because humans enjoy the convenience of plastic bags ...

I will join in again when the fog lifts a little.

🌻birdy

[Peppermintbach]

Hi Chrissystar and all,

Chrissystar: Sending my warm thoughts your way. Hope our lovely thread creator is doing okay 🙂

birdy: are you okay? You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to but I’m just worried about the brain fog that you mentioned. You know that you can always talk to us if you want to...

That is very tragic. Poor whale...plastic is dangerous to so many animals. Heartbreaking....

Love and light,

Pepper xoxo

[Birdy77]

Thanks Pepper,

I have been down in the hole!!! .... thank you for your care and concern, I will be ok. Hope you are ok xo and everyone else here ... will return shortly I hope 😊

🌻birdy

[Peppermintbach]

Hi lovely Birdy (and a wave to Chrissy star and all),

I was relieved to hear from you as I was starting to get worried. That being said, take all the time you need to rest and look after yourself. No rush to reply...only when you’re good and ready. Take your time...

Many hugs,

Pepper xoxo