The "Sadness" without the "Anxiety".

[Unbeliever]

I've spent the last few days reading through a lot of old threads on this site (and purposely not commenting on them) and I've noticed something curious that I recall previously noticing in numerous group therapy sessions many years ago.

So many people here are talking about feeling constantly anxious about everything and having seemingly regular uncontrollable panic attacks (especially in public places or unfamiliar circumstances). It seems ridiculously common among those that consider themselves depressed.

While I can rationally understand why people can get anxious about certain things... this is still something that I can't relate to. I've got all the "sad" feelings, they dominate my thoughts days and nights, most days I consider whether "seeing tomorrow" is really worth the effort at all. Without trying to sound pretentious... to date, after more than 20 years I have not met anyone who looks as deeply into the dark as I do... in physical group sessions my perspectives always freaked people out to the point that the suicidal people would ask me during breaks "how do you possibly survive"?

However, I have zero anxiety about anything. Nothing ever really makes me feel "nervous", I certainly don't have panic attacks... but this appears to be extremely rare for some reason. If fact, in all of the hundreds of comments I've read through over the last 2 days (many going back several years) I've yet to find a comment about this.

I've been trying to work out why this is, what makes me different. The only thing I've come up with so far is that the only opinions of people that I hold in high regard are from people who I respect... which is something that has to be earned with me. While the opinions of people that I don't have respect for (or have yet to earn that respect)... while sometimes interesting, don't really matter to me that much. Certainly not to the point that I obsess about it.

[Unbeliever]

I guess what I mean is... I don't worry about anyone "judging me" about anything, unless that person actually means something to me. If a person on the street, thinks little of me, or if they hate me on sight. Whether an employer yells at me, a stranger aggressively confronts me in the street, a police officer stops me to ask me some questions, or a "friend of a friend" thinks I'm some kind of "loser" or "failure"... It doesn't really bother me at all. Those peoples opinions of me are quite meaningless.

New and unfamiliar places don't bother me either and "breaking routine" is fine. I don't imagine anything interesting is "waiting to jump out at me from the shadows" (I kind of wish that there was honestly... I get bored quite easily). The "unknown" is at least interesting and less predictably boring.

Things like big tests or exams don't make me anxious either... if I happened to fail for some reason (which to date has never happened), I figure that I'll just have to take the test again and eventually one day I'll pass. I've never come across a test which is a "one chance only... fail and you're out forever" test. So I don't get this either... is it just a general fear of "failure"? Regardless of whether it is temporary setback at worst? I understand it could be frustrating... but scary? I don't get that.

I guess I've hit a wall in trying to grasp this concept. So I'm appealing to the collective wisdom of this forum to try and explain it to me. What exactly am I missing? And what is possibly the relation between "persistant depressed thoughts" and being scared of unfamiliar things? I genuinely want to understand.

To be honest, I'm getting a little tired of always being "different"... even among the "different".

So, anyone. Can you please explain this to me?

[romantic_thi3f]

Hi Unbeliever,

Thanks for your post and sharing what’s been going on with you. It sounds like it’s been difficult both dealing with your depressive thoughts and not really understanding what’s going on.

As someone who has both depression and anxiety disorders, I’m not sure how helpful I can be, but I’ll do my best.

It’s true that both depression and anxiety can overlap, but depression can stand alone just like anxiety can stand alone. I know people in all of these 3 categories.

I thought you had quite an interesting post about why some overlap and others don’t, but when I tried to find out more for myself I saw that there’s actually not a lot of research on it. We can see the way our brains change and the differences - like PET scans in those with and without depression, and with and without anxiety - but never one with both. Often there are symptoms that overlap too - i.e. the depressive thought of ‘I’ll forever be alone’ can link with the worry of ‘what if I’ll never find anyone and I’m destined to be alone?’. They can overlap ever so simply without going so far as panic attacks and avoiding situations.

Part of me wonders (and I’m only guessing without knowing you) that if you have been depressed for so long, perhaps you’ve developed a kind of apathy? In the same sense that someone (not necessarily you!) might take risks because they don’t seemingly care whether they live/die.


The other thing that I thought of is that you may not be finding these posts on the forums simply because people aren’t talking about it - just from my own experience I’ve noticed more people talking about anxiety over depression and I wonder if it’s because they feel like we can be useful - i.e. offering practical advice/empathy over their worries, etc. I’ve often found that in posts with depression (without anxiety) members can be hesitant to reach out - one of the reasons for that possibly being that they don’t feel like we can be helpful/they deserve to get help/something is wrong or the idea of telling their story is too daunting.

I hope this helps somewhat!

[Unbeliever]

I also researched online before posting but found little spoken about this.

I am now confident that I'm going to end up alone. By this point the chances of finding someone beyond a friendship are practically non-existent. While this thought is not a pleasant one and unfortunate, it is not a source of "stress" for me (at least not anymore). I genuinely made a powerful attempt to counter this a few years back and failed (took a large "last attempt/all in" gamble) and since then I haven't been within 100 metres of a woman I would be interested in having more than a friendship with. I do however miss the (non-virtual) hugs and kisses... but there isn't anyone left that I dream about non-virtually hugging and kissing anymore (fantasy impossibilities or otherwise).

Perhaps I am calmer about this because I am an only child with a small family (just my mum and my grandmother) so I've known since I was a kid that ending up alone was a strong possibility. My nana died a few years ago, 50% of my entire family gone in an instant... and when my mum goes. That's it. But I've had a long time to process that scenario.

Haha, "apathy" is certainly not my issue. I am "overly empathetic" if anything. This is one of the things that actually DOES stress me out... the overabundance of apathy I see in others. It enrages me if anything (which is a form of stress I guess).

Dying has never scared me. Losing the few people I truly care about in this world, or suffering in physical pain without being able to die, or being trapped in my body unable to move or communicate... those thoughts scare me. But death? Not at all, never really has. In fact I fantasise about it most days (mainly accidents like a car jumping the curb, or when I am crossing train tracks... stuff like that), however I'm not currently in a position where I can even consider pursuing such actions on purpose. Not for as long as my mum is alive.

Your post did make me realise a reason why anxiety posts are over-represented on these sites (even in the "depression" section). Depression by itself is a gradual "grinding away" of the soul and spirit over time before reaching any "critical point"... anxiety inherantly carries a sense of urgency and immediacy by it's very nature... and therefore it makes sense that the "push" many people need to post on a public forum would be driven by their anxiousness to resolve it ASAP. Hence the over-representation.

Understandable, but still not exactly helpful to me though.

[PamelaR]

Hello Unbeliever

I'm not sure I have the answer for you either Unbeliever. I too have both anxiety and depression. Thinking about it, I do know of one friend who had depression without anxiety. Her basic take on depression was - it was chemically induced, i.e. through low level of serotonin and has little to nothing to do with anxiety in her case. However, I note research is dispelling this hypothesis as a myth.

Maybe Romantic is on to something when she talks about - you're not finding any posts or threads in the forums because no one is talking about it. This doesn't mean it's not occuring.

So perhaps this thread of yours could be somewhere people could start discussing it? That is if you want this to happen. No pressure.

[quirkywords]

Unbeliever,

I have had depression with out anxiety, but I have bipolar so I had mania as well.

I know other people with bipolar who have anxiety as well.

I was diagnosed over 40 years and while people were starting to talk about depression ,anxiety seems to only have become more talked about and more prevalent say in last 20 years.

Not sure if that can be proved but is just an observation.

I have noticed there is a lot of discussion about anxiety.

If you can have depression without anxiety can you have anxiety without depression.

I think this is an interesting topic you have started here,

I just wanted to comment and maybe it is not that helpful but are just my thoughts.

Quirky

[Unbeliever]

I guess one of the other things I am curious about is what exactly are so many people being so "anxious" about?

From all I've read on these forums this week 99% is not worry about any kind of physical danger or pain... which at least I could relate somewhat to.

I could also understand something like... if something traumatic happened to you in a specific place (like for example at their workplace) then having to return to their workplace constantly could create a fear response because it is a constant reminder as a place where their past trauma could reoccur. That makes sense to me as well.

The only other thing I've come up with are things that feel like "time is running out" like feeling a clock winding down. If "whatever" isn't done soon then it wont ever happen and that thought making people anxious. That scenario too, I can't specifically relate to... but at least I can understand.

But he things above rarely appear to be the case in peoples posts.

From what I've read it appears to be mainly either simply "fear of the unknown or unfamiliar" or a fear of people judging them for not being perfect (either people they know or complete strangers) like simple potential embarrassment.

I assume that I am either simplifying it too much or that there must be something that I am completely missing. It seems that if all this "anxiety" is due to these last 2 things... that doesn't really make sense to me without the "physical danger" fear to rationalise it.

The "unknown" are the only things that make life interesting.

And again, I can kind of understand fear of judgement in regards to people that matter in your life. But with people who don't? Or complete strangers? How exactly does that work? Why?

The only other thing of interest that I have noticed is that as far as I can tell... by far the majority of people posting that are suffering from an additional condition on top of their depression (like anxiety or mania) appear to be taking some kind of medication recently. While the people that are just depressed with no additional conditions appear to be more variable... with some taking meds but many of them not.

I guess it makes some sense that people with multiple conditions would be more likely to be taking medication to compensate... but still it does seem to be too consistant to be just coincidence... which does suggest that the reason may be something else.

I find it all so curious. But I still don't get it yet.

[thegreatestgame]

I'm not sure if I'll be much help, since I don't really understand it that much myself.

From what I've read of your other posts I think romantic_thi3f might have meant your lack of anxiety could be caused by your apathy toward yourself, not toward others. Maybe you've been depressed for so long that you're simply unable to care about yourself so you focus on the feelings of others.

Would you feel any different if someone yelled at a person you cared about?

Anxiety is just as insidious as depression, sometimes it doesn't need a good reason. Asking why people are anxious is like asking what is there to be depressed about. Sometimes the tiniest, stupidest things can trigger a response, it doesn't have to involve danger or major discomfort.

For example the moment I really knew I had a problem was when I got to a shopping centre car park and I couldn't get myself to open the car door. I wasn't scared of anything, there were some people around but that didn't bother me. I desperately wanted to go home but I needed food. It was 55 minutes before I could get out of the car and that's mostly because it was almost closing time so I really pushed myself. For a lot of the time I was seriously considering sleeping in the car overnight and doing the shopping in the morning. There was no reason for it, it just happened. Up until then I thought I was just nervous about everything and everyone else was the same.

I've heard people get panic attacks because they see a cup too close to the edge of a table. If I need more than one or two attempts to do something simple like pick up a remote or turn on a light it feels like I've been punched in the chest, I just want to lay down and cry. Doing something more difficult like answering the phone or door feels even worse. Often I just won't answer even if I know who it is.

And even when things are ok it feels like there's a constant twisting lump sitting between my lungs so that every time I breath out I think I'm not going to be able to breath back in again.

It's an awful way to live so that might explain why anxiety and depression are such good bedfellows.

I hope that helps a little. I'm tired so it's probably a jumbled mess.

[quirkywords]

unbeliever,

I think people are curious about things they have not experienced.

Have you ever had someone say that they do not know why someone would be depressed when they have nothing to be depressed about.

I have had people say to me, years ago, that I was too young or overweight to be depressed as back then it was thought only old people and thin people were depressed, as lack of appetite was a sign of depression.

I feel your curiosity about anxiety is like how others view depression.

That is just a suggestion and you may reject it.

I am not sure there is a relation between medication and anxiety , I think it would have to be a study and not just anecdotal.

I am not afraid of flying but I can understand that some people are.

Also my partner is afraid of needles and blood but I am not but I can see it is very real for him.

Quirky

[Quercus]

Hi Unbeliever,

I find your thread confusing to speak plainly.

Why does it matter if the way you experience depression and anxiety is not the same as others?

I think the brain is more complex than we know. I can't explain why I worry about things that you may not except to say we are unique human beings.

You wrote about feeling tired of being different even among the different. That made me a bit sad actually. Do you feel unwelcome or unable to see your own symptoms in others and relate?

You described yourself as lacking in worry and fear of judgement except from those you value and respect. So how does that work forming any new relationships?

There is always that stage where a person is unknown to you. They don't automatically become someone who's opinion matters to you. I think to form and establish relationships you do have to worry and care what others think.

My husband is like you. He doesn't care what anyone thinks. It's not an act. He honestly does not care what anyone thinks. Unless you matter to him. Then your opinion counts.

We met on the internet. By the time we met in person we weren't strangers anymore. Put simply he cared what I thought. He has patience for my anxieties and fears. Sometimes I wonder if we hadn't had the time to get to know eachother would I have been scared of or intimidated by him? I suspect I would have.

My point. Relationships aren't hopeless even if you don't care what others think.

Nat