Female in a hetero marriage, asexual and in love with same sex friend

[SH-2600]

I need to talk and get this all out of my head. I have been in a hetero relationship for 29 years and have known nothing else. I loved my husband but have never been in love. I have always thought of myself as being close to asexual, but strongly felt that this was something I needed to fix, that “normal” people want to have sex. I require a close intimate emotional connection to even consider physical/sexual intimacy. My husband and I have always managed this quite well, and although our relationship is not as conventional as some, we definitely had a good close partnership up until the last 2-3 years. We have 2 children in their late teens. This year, things seem to have shifted a lot. We have drifted from each other a bit and our friendship that underpinned our relationship has started to erode. He is struggling with work, life, sense of purpose and says he is unhappy and lonely. Adding to this, I am now questioning my sexual identity again. There is a woman who is the only woman I have ever had romantic thoughts about. She has been in and out of my life over the years, for a range of reasons to do with both of us, mental health issues, distance, readiness for emotional intimacy etc. this year however, after the death of a very close friend of mine, she has come back into my life and we have grown incredibly close. We saw each other recently for the first time in 6 years. We are both now ready for an emotionally intimate friendship and we spent 3 days together talking and getting closer. I am in love with her. She loves me very deeply but it is entirely platonic from her perspective. She is married to a man who has taken a significant amount of her mental health from her and from her kids, but she loves him and will never leave him. She seems to have flicked a switch in me and I know for sure that I want to be with her, but that is not something that will ever happen. I also have my primary relationship with my husband that is falling apart. I am feeling overwhelmed since coming home from the time with my friend, everything is so pale in comparison to being with her. Rightly though, she has switched her focus back to her life, and I am finding that incredibly difficult. I am also wondering if this year is a year for any big decisions because it has been a shocker on all levels. I am afraid to run from the life that my husband and I have built and I am afraid of continuing to deny myself and who I am. I am struggling. SH

[smallwolf]

Have you looked into sleep hygiene?

My psychiatrist does not like the name itself but the concept works - at least for me it has. I will let you google the topic but I had to do the following ... no coffee after 4pm, empty my mind before sleep, do something relaxing before sleep (that helps to empty my mind). I am not a big phone user, unlike my kids, so I did not have the worry about the effects of blue light. There is also a good book (I think) titled "Why we sleep" by Matthew Walker if you are interested in that sort of thing.

Real healing takes time also.

*Not sure what to do with the Queen ... exit stage door left before I am seen*

[Timshel]

Tim, I just wanted to hop on here before the day’s end and wish you a very Happy Father’s Day. I hope your day has been relaxing and you have been well cared for.

You have nothing to fear from the Queen. I have banished her to a Queendom far, far away - to the farthest corner of my vacuous brain!

Besides, S ‘Che Guevara’ H over there would have kept her well in check. Dodgy knees or no dodgy knees, I wouldn’t back myself in a revolutionary war against that control freak!! Should have had HER beheaded! (Only joking S...your head looks perfectly fine just where it is...love you heaps.)

I have no doubt that sleep hygiene does, indeed, improve overall sleep patterns. Whenever I have been camping and have had nothing whatsoever to distract me at night - no screens, no jobs to do, no plans to make etc. - I have always found it easier to follow a regular pattern of going to bed earlier, falling asleep easier and managing to remain in a state of ‘deep sleep’ until morning. Just mirroring the normal patterns of the natural world I guess. When the sun goes down the body prepares for rest, when the sun comes up the body prepares for action. Unless of course you are a possum, or a bat, or an owl, or even a bloody thirsty Count from Transylvania! Hmm! Okay, so perhaps not the ENTIRE natural world follows that pattern, but you get my drift! S, have you ever tried pitching a tent in your garden and sleeping outside? Nothing lovelier on a freezing Canberra night...

To another matter...loving more than one person at a time. If we are talking about non-romantic love, I think we manage to do this very well as a species. As S said, we can love many people at once but in very different ways.

As for whether it is possible to be ‘in love’ with more than one person at a time...perhaps. There would be those in the polyamorous community who would say, yes, absolutely! It is possible to both love AND experience passion, longing, desire for more than one person at a time. In other words to both love AND be attracted to one or more partners at the same time. I would imagine however that, in order for polyamorous relationships to work well and in such a way that ensures the needs of all parties are adequately met, a substantial amount of negotiation and even renegotiation would need to take place. Humans are complex creatures with complex emotional needs that far outweigh the physical.

ATTRACTED to more than one person at once, sure! IN LOVE, maybe! Depending on who you meet when..

[Timshel]

Hey you,

I am glad to be back too. Could not get that damn tiara to sit straight on my head. And the weight of it.......

By the way, how do you know THAT is not what I meant? O God, I wish I hadn’t just said that 🤢🤢🤢🤮 .......there goes my dinner!

You know what S? You can say what you like, but you are absolutely a badass! ‘Badassery’ is a state-of-mind, an ideology even. Not accepting the status quo, subverting the dominant paradigm, standing up for what and whom you believe in. Authenticity! I wish you could see in you what I see in you. I really do.

I also carry you with me throughout my day. You make me smile, a lot! Thank you.

I am so glad you are giving yourself some space and time to work things out. I know what you are going through is hard and I also know how much harder it is when kids are involved. The stakes are so much higher and the weight on your shoulders to either fix things or end things well for all concerned is so much heavier. I get it! No matter what the outcome, you will always be a family, even if the dynamics are different. The love between you and your husband is obvious as is the respect you have for each other and the life you have built together. I am hopeful that, no matter what decision you both arrive at, that bond will always be there and your lives will always be intertwined. Even if you were to seperate, would it be absolutely necessary for you to live apart? Could you consider the possibility of still sharing the same home that you both obviously love so much? I know this could get tricky if ever either of you were to meet someone else but, in the meantime, could that be an option? By the way, did you mention the topic of your sexuality with your husband yet or your feelings for N or did you just talk about how you have changed in general since meeting her and E?

I want you to be happy S. Even if you are a troll. Even trolls deserve to be happy.

Timshel

[SH-2600]

Hi Tim
Happy Father’s Day for yesterday! I hope it was a good day for you.

I learned about sleep hygiene with my last psych, and I have ramped it up to ridiculous levels over the last 3 weeks. My routine currently involves reading quietly, dimmed lighting, warm showers, quiet music and guided mindfulness (even though I am still useless at them - Timshel, hurry up and come find me so you can teach me how not to be useless at meditation!!). This is all in the hour leading up to actually getting into bed. Then breathing techniques. I do read on my iPad or phone for a bit before getting into bed, but have the light setting on the device set to the warmest possible to limit blue light. I don’t really get distracted by my phone. I am on FB and other social media, but I don’t really post or read the feeds or anything. I just can’t be bothered with it.

I find camping good for sleep too, Timshel. There is something about living outside and cooking over fire that just slows everything down, my mind, my breathing, my pulse. Even without the campfire it is good. And if you combine the sound of water, perfect! Not sure about the backyard overnight in Canberra. I do generally prefer the overnight temp to not drop below 5 when I am sleeping outside!

Last night was a little better again, so I am getting there at least. An upward trajectory. I am functioning a little better too.

With regard to love and just responding to what Timshel said, a polyamorous relationship would take a lot of negotiation for sure. I recently watched Trigonometry, a series on SBS all about that. It was a good series actually. For me, the state of being newly “in love” gets a bit consuming and I become preoccupied, although maybe that is only when it is one sided, like my last venture into this realm! I personally would find it hard being in that state with more than one person.

S

[SH-2600]

Hey you too,

Maybe I am a badass, at the very least I am not compliant. I read a book recently called Difficult Women- a history of feminism in 11 fights ( I do love a light read!). One of the things it attempts to do is reframe and claim the term “difficult woman”. At the end of the book there is an epilogue that is a manifesto for being a difficult woman, because we all should be difficult! I can tick off some of those things, and I aspire to the others! So if badass means being a difficult woman then I embrace it! I actually think that you have quite a bit of badass in you too. I feel that from you, in your words, in your beliefs, in your presence.

I am so grateful that you do get it, dealing with marriage problems and kids is bloody hard as you well know. I wish you weren’t having to deal with it and that things were easier for you. I hope that the boulder is turning into a pebble and you no longer have to push it uphill. I truly hope that M is considering your needs and is engaging with you in discussions about your marriage moving forward.

I have been thinking a lot about whether I can find more in me for my husband. I can change the way I am with him to some degree, maybe get some counselling to figure out what the blocks are when it comes to him, why I am old me. I know those blockages are not just about sexuality. But honestly, I can’t feel what I don’t feel and I can’t be what I can’t be (does that even make sense?). sharing a house would work for us, I think, at least in the short term. I think he and I will always maintain a friendship, although it may look different if we separate. The more I think about it, the more likely that is.

I didn’t talk about sexuality, I am trying to work my way gently there. I did talk about being drawn to some women, that I feel an affinity with other women and that I feel that there is something special about the intimate platonic relationships between women. He needs to know about my attraction to women, but it is hard because it will most likely seal the fate of the marriage. Not sure yet if I will tell him about N. She is no longer a factor in many ways as I know what I need to do there and am working towards that. I am finding that my rational self is more in control of that situation now. I suspect he will ask about her though. He knows I love her deeply, he even described her as my kryptonite once.

We both deserve happiness love.

You know my name already...

Badassery at work!

[Timshel]

I hear you, S. When it comes to being newly ‘in love’, I too find it all consuming. I can’t imagine being capable of feeling the same level of intense emotion for more than one person at a time. Even the practice of ‘dating’ more than one person at a time is something I have always struggled with and have never managed to master successfully. I always found myself still enjoying being with one person more than another, so just couldn’t see the point in the end. It always felt like I was wasting someone’s time. I know it is common in American culture to ‘date around’ before ‘dating exclusively’ but it really isn’t something I was exposed to growing up in Ireland. In France, a little more so but, as I said, it just never sat well with me. The scenarios I was more familiar with were either casual ‘hookups’ or ‘exclusive dating’. Though I have to cast my mind a long way back to even remember those days now...

I, too, watched Trigonometry. What really struck me in that dynamic was: a) the sexual fluidity of both women b) the fact that the original couple both found themselves, not only attracted to, but falling in love with the same person third person at the same time and c) they did so without experiencing any ‘dropoff’ in their feelings for each other. That’s a pretty ‘perfect storm’! What are the odds?

I am pretty sure that just about every heterosexual man I have ever known has harboured a secret fantasy of being physically intimate with more than one woman at a time. I’m not sure whether the idea of being emotionally intimate with several women at the same time has quite the same appeal?! But, speaking for myself at least, I could never just ‘be’ with someone else of any gender just for the sake of fulfilling anyone’s fantasy, even my own. I would need to feel my OWN strong connection and attraction to that person, independently. For me it would be essentially like trying to maintain 2 relationships at the same time which brings me all the way back to the question of whether I would be capable of bringing the same level of intensity to both relationships?? As I said in my previous post, maybe it just depends on who you meet when...I think I would just get myself into an awful mess though...I’d probably end up in a nunnery looking for solace...Sister Timshel? Nah!

[SH-2600]

I can't quite imagine you in a convent (yet I could imagine you as the queen???). Although I have to say the peace and quiet of life in a nunnery would be appealing.

The odds were pretty slim for the three people in Trigonometry, but it must happen that way for some people. Maybe for some it is more of slower negotiation to get to that point where everyone is comfortably and securely in love. I think the odds are slim no matter what. When you think about all of the things that have to align in two lives for them to be at the right place at the right time. It's why there must be more than one person out there for each of us, sometimes we only meet one of them, sometimes we meet more, sometimes none. Sometimes we are not ready for them when we do come across them, and so miss them, or get in a mess! Sometimes great loves end up in our lives in other ways. Life is complicated, but I guess you work with what you get. That is enough of my philosophy on love. Don't listen to me because I don't know what the hell I am talking about!!
I do know that I need to feel deep connection before I can feel attraction. I don't think I could actually even "be" with a random or semi-random woman to "test" my sexuality or satisfy my curiosity. I just want and need more I guess.

On that note, I am out.

Talk soon.

S

[Timshel]

Don’t you think I am devout enough to be in a convent? You’re probably right. I’d never get through the interview process anyway. I’d just keep stumbling over all those questions about religion ‘n’ beliefs ‘n’ stuff!! Still, the peace and tranquility is appealing! Although, on the down side, it is a very regimented lifestyle. I am a convent educated girl. Got my ‘knuckles bruised by the ladies in black’ as the song says (Death Cab for Cutie - I Will Follow You Into The Dark). To be honest, with many years of hindsight behind me now, I can look back at those ‘ladies in black’ with a lot more respect and, dare I say, even affection now than I used to be able to. At the time I was too afraid to even look at some of them at all for fear of being sucked in and blown out in bubbles! Sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it! But, as I have matured over the years (well, okay, grown older..), I have come to realise and appreciate what those women did for the us ‘spirited’ young girls. They educated us well and pushed us to believe in our own capabilities as young women going out into the world. I can see now how much they genuinely cared about their role as educators and how important it was for them to see each and every one of us reach our full potential (even if it meant scaring the living daylights out of us to do it sometimes!). I think it is important not to always throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak!

You know, when it comes to matters of the heart, I thought by this age I would, more likely than not, have it all worked out! How naive was I? Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose - the more things change, the more they stay the same! I agree with you about the amount of things that have to align at the same time in order for couples, throuples or any other such arrangements to come together and actually work. M and I ‘bumped into each other’ 3 times across 2 continents and 3 countries over the space of 6 years before we got together!!

Things there are going okay for the most part. There is no longer the same tension between us or in the house in general. We do things together again, enjoy each other’s company, have fun. We do talk, but there is still something missing for me in that regard. That ability to connect/reconnect on a deeper level. M wasn’t raised in a family where in depth conversations were really a ‘thing’. He has always tried harder with me and my family though. And yet still.......Hoping Relationships Aus will help.

[SH-2600]

Hey Timshel

I am really glad that things are easier at home for you. It makes a difference when the tension is reduced. It is also perhaps a good sign that M has been willing to try harder with deeper conversations for you in the past. I have my fingers crossed that you will get those needs met through counselling. You love each other, and it sounds like you actually really like each other too. That is a good basis for moving forward. You have worked really hard to get your relationship to this point, Timshel.

I agree that affairs of the heart don’t get any easier. In fact, I am of the opinion that my heart is an idiot! Full stop.

I have always found nuns interesting. I like the idea of a kind of sisterhood that would develop. I would not like regimentation, oh and there is the small technicality of requiring faith in God! I have come into contact with a few nuns in different places over the years. The couple I have known have been quite staunch feminists, and definitely passionate about education (although some of their practices are a little scary, your experience is a prime example). My grandmother (Dad’s Mum), had a few good friends who were nuns and I think if she were catholic she would have maybe chosen the convent. I think she envied them a little. One of them Sr. Cassie would come to visit her every now and then. On one occasion she took me into my grandparent’s lounge room (where no one ever went in daylight hours, and in fact it was closed off from the rest of house, so we couldn’t even look in there as kids). I would have been maybe 4, and she asked me a bunch of questions. We came out of the lounge room, and my parents and grandparents were sitting there silently waiting, which was also odd. Sister Cassie announced that I was smart and they had cups of tea. It was very weird to me at the time, so weird that it is now probably one of my earliest memories. Anyway, that is my nun story!! A bit different from yours. It is good you can look back and see what they were able to do for you, but it was a bloody harsh environment to be educated in!

I am doing my usual Tuesday afternoon procrastinating. I am really struggling getting myself to work at the moment. I am right when I get there, but I am having trouble getting my head around it. I am not as sharp as I usually am. It is probably good to be at work as a distraction but I kind of wish I could take a chunk of time off to get myself together.

S

[Timshel]

I guess in some ways my boulder is getting smaller, but it is still far from a pebble!

I think you know as much about love and relationships as any of us. I still feel like a novice (just can’t get that convent imagery out of my head!). And I really do understand what you say about not being able to be with some random person in order to ‘test’ your sexual orientation. Connection is hugely important for me too. As I’m sure it is for many people. Any one is not necessarily the right one! Especially if you want to nurture a relationship. And, as you said, great love and even great relationships come in many forms.

I do worry sometimes if maybe I expect too much of M. I just don’t know any more. I think I’ve lost all perspective. I guess counselling will help with that. But it is hard to feel complete when something so meaningful to you is missing in a relationship. Just as you can’t feel what you don’t feel and you can’t be what you’re not, you can’t not feel what you do feel and you can’t not be what you are, or even not need what you need ...confused? Me too! I worry that my son sometimes comes to ME for advice on relationships (well maybe that’s not ENTIRELY true, a lot of the time I just give it without actually being asked...). I mean what the hell do I know? I’m not exactly hitting home runs! Relationship talk hurts my head AND MY JAW!

Do your kids have any idea what is going on or even picked up on any tension at home? It has simply been impossible to hide everything from my son over the years. I did try. But it got to the stage where M and I did nothing together, barely even spoke to each other. We even took him away on separate trips. I just couldn’t even pretend to like M. His parents sort of expected us to brush everything under the carpet and put on a show for their sakes but even that became too hard. I tried to keep the arguing just between us as much as I could. But over the last year especially, even that got increasingly difficult. You would have to know my husband and myself well IRL to understand. He is volatile by nature and also infuriatingly pig headed. I am stubborn and very reactive. Not a great combination. I hated who I became around him and I hated the part of myself that my son came to witness at times. I carry that guilt with me every day as a reminder of how to do better.

So you suspect I might have some ‘badassery’ in me? Maybe a little. 

Timshel from 🇮🇪☘️ and 🇦🇺🦘 signing out (I’m obviously bored...)