Questioning some things

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Those of you who know me know I have been bouncing from one rough life event to another for years, without really any time to take a breath in between. I can state well enough the things that have happened to me, but haven't had much energy to delve deeply into what those things have done to me. In the time off work since my partner had major surgery (yup, another fun crisis), I had time to start pulling at threads, to get a Mental Health Care Plan, see a psych and talk to a counsellor. As much as I always knew my life has been a steaming pile of crap, the threads I am pulling are connecting dots and giving rise to possible clarifications of events and what has arisen in their wake.

My childhood was severely neglectful. Mostly emotionally, but also in some physical ways. We kids didn't sleep in the (perfectly good) house, we slept in a caravan nearby - Mum cleaned up her and Dad's bedroom and the kitchen after the mouse plagues, but apparently our rooms weren't worth the effort. He carries on about her "unfit" parenting, but it's not like Dad did anything about it either. We were fed and clothed well enough. Never a lot of attention from either of them. I don't remember a single hug from either one during my childhood. Mum would immediately disinfect her hands if by some chance she came to touch one of us. Some years later, post parental divorce, Mum's settlement money ran out and we endured a brief stint without a home, a much longer (years) stint of inadequate food and no hot water.

I actually became pretty functional after moving out. Worked, studied, maintained a place on my own. Went through a couple of less than healthy relationships and endured with surprising resilience. Then came the last relationship. First two years, no major problems. Then bam, he's unfaithful. Enter ol' Blue's depression, that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. Damn fool remained in contact with him and we tried again at the relationship. To be fair, he didn't repeat that particular mistake. He tried hard to redeem himself and be a better partner. Until the ring was on the finger. Engagement in place, all effort fell away little by little. Dear gods did the neglect become overwhelmingly severe. I kind of got that there was a theme, but it's literally only now, years after breaking up with him, that I see why it was that straw that began my depression - just how closely what he did mirrored my parents' behaviour.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Thanks for dropping in. 🙂 I smiled at your enthusiasm, there. Yes, it's an accepted fact for me, for various reasons. One is that I have a quite logical and pragmatic personality - I observed that cause and effect never added up. I didn't do anything to warrant abuse, ergo not my fault, and neglect rather sidestepped reactions of any kind regardless of any behaviour on my part, I was simply not prioritised - i.e. my fault or otherwise isn't even part of the equation. The other main reason is my strong belief in personal responsibility. I am the only person responsible for my actions and my reactions, irrespective of what is thrown at me. Whether they want to acknowledge it or not, the same is true for everyone else as well. Even if I had provoked them in some way, the abusers had the option to walk away, and the neglectful people had the option to not bear children (or adopt us out if they weren't willing to raise us), or in the case of various exes, they could have, you know, not entered into a damn relationship if they weren't willing to be part of one.

It sounds to me like your mother worked to condition you early on to take the blame for others. When you have a force actively working against you, I imagine it is harder to make sense of where blame lies in any given situation, if indeed it lies anywhere at all. Fortunately for me, by the time psycho ex came along and tried that crap on me I had well and truly established my sense of personal responsibility and his appalling behaviour wasn't going to shift it. In that respect, the neglect of my formative years was the better of my troubles.

Perhaps when looking at things for which you have been blamed, you could step into the shoes of the other person in the situation. If they were in your place in that moment, how would you have treated them? What could they have done differently? You will inevitably find that abusing you was never a necessary option and always avoidable.

Thanks, J*, glad my perspective is helpful to you. No major troubles with PTSD at the moment, it comes and goes. Nowhere near as bad as it used to be, thankfully. How are you doing?

Blue.

[ecomama]

Hey Blue

Yes as I was reading the past few posts, I felt a strong urge to point out that it appears to be that YOU and J* and me too (probably SO many others here) are very responsible people.

Then my mind was taken into a path by the rest of the convo between you and J*, knowing only parts of your stories....

could it be that you're both survivors (aka victims) of narcissistic abuse?
Possibly by parents, partners, family.... more?

I read SO much about narcissists in my shock era about 7y ago.
I'll call it shock but it was really post severely abusive events. Horrific.

There are many catch phrases that describe relationships with a narc...
eg the narc has all the RIGHTS and the victim has all the RESPONSIBILITIES.

Besides the fact that I know you both well enough to know just HOW responsible you are with creatures, environmental waste, pets, our gardens etc etc - it's a theory of mine that ppl like us are like this bec of our responsible natures and can often be like this because we were abused / victims of narc abuse. So this is ONE path.
The other is repeating abuse patterns of families generation after generation... ppl like US try to eliminate this from happening as much as absolutely possible esp WHEN we recognise it!

The first path is living with awareness and it seems ALOT of research lol. It may take a LIGHTBULB moment.
The latter is more likely to be living in "automatic pilot".

So reading about the effects of long term narc abuse and HOW narcs "are" to their victims may see you reading text book responses.
As I most certainly saw.

There's SO much about how narcs "are" that changes us. Coercive control can be used etc etc etc.

We have to be extra responsible to BE in a r/ship with a narc.

Maybe a hint at finding more answers to your feelings atm IDK.

Love EM

[Jstar49]

Hi em, and blue, and all,- wave!

Em I looked up narcissicists, and honestly couldn't see much which related specifically to any one person in my life. So IDK. Open, but ...leaving it open. Pretty keen to not go down any rabbit holes atm.

Having some nice experiences with mindfulness/meditation. Not saying they are the same thing but noticing how they overlap, and my recent re- immersing into meditation has sparked a wonderful aha moment today, to do with some angry thoughts which sent me walking with the dog, and mindfulness which returned me in a totally changed state. ( More on the mindfulness thread) So that was lovely! Lovely to step out of it, just totally, in those moments, allow those thoughts to be there, recognise them, and also be totally detached from them.

I think this is the way i want to live my life from now on, if I can. To step away from the whys and hows and just get on with living. I couldn't see how to do it before, but today has given me a new perspective.

Ha ha Blue...enthusiasm!! I can't help it really, I get so excited about stuff! I'm actually hoping i mite be able to tuck it away a bit more in future. Yknow, not reveal everything on the first date type thingy....!! I really want to get a measure of ppl before opening up too much. I'd also like to keep some of my ideas for later, instead of blurting it all out as soon as I think of it. PPl say I wear my heart on my sleeve, and for my 'kin' thats all good. But in the real world it's a bit of a handicap Ive found.

So yes, I'm fascinated by you Blue! I sense in you an emotional reserve I long to cultivate! (ah LOL, I bet I will find it challenging to say the least! But at least I can learn to apply it in certain situations.)

I am noticing how PTSD mite be affecting my partner tho. He can't really see it, but there's a type of reaction he has, and when he talks about it, the convo usually returns to the DV he witnessed for most of his youth. His anger at his dad caused it to stop, perhaps permanently ( it's his perception that it did) and so it's become this safe reaction for him. I'm attempting to introduce other ideas and ways of coping/responding but he's not really getting the connection to how he's reacting now, and what he experienced as a child. I'm finding it hard going as he doesn't do any D&M type anything, really. (polar opposites, me and him, really!)

And yes thats all about me! Sorry! Please don't feel obliged to respond to my ramble!

Cheers,

J*

[Jstar49]

Thanks Blue,

I shall try that a bit more with people. I think I may have trouble with taking appropriate responsibility also, so it's a good exercise all round. it's true that we are all responsible for our behaviour, ultimately, however I have often been in the position of being blindsided by others with a vested interest in maintaining some kind of status quo, and control, and in some way, I have acted as the emotional release valve in the whole scenario. It has indeed made it difficult to work out where my responsibility begins and ends. So much of my family interactions are guided by shoulds, and guilt trips, and being told that I haven't, and don't and aren't. It is taking me time to work it out. Maybe the whole mindfulness thing will help in this regard too- along with long hard walks to blow off steam!

I long to be detached from it all, and also, I yearn for deep connection! It seems a conundrum!

cheers

J*

[ecomama]

Hey peeps,

J* I read about your lovely experiences with mindfulness, I think it's really important to do lol.
I do it through experiential and sometimes "situational" events... do some guided meditations from time to time.

I'm so glad you can free yourself for times and feel that lift!

For me, unless I can work out WHO that other person is, I can't "move on" freely.

I was able to move on from the police event that had me NC with the abuser. At first the trauma was too deep, I thought of that person a thousand times a second.

Over time it could be weeks and weeks before thinking of her and that was usually only bec someone else had brought her up to me ie my children or my brother.

Unless I know there is NOTHING to be done for that relationship in any way of healing I think of them. My research has enabled closure to occur. Finding out about their mental make up being the sealant of all sealants lol!

Then there's the therapy where I've had to talk about them. The Courts was a yuck thing running parallel with therapy.

The time I most bring up the abusers is when I'm on the forums, making connections with ppl who've been in same but are still in shock at it all.

It's time for me also to free myself from that more. Establish a more detached attitude here.

I'm drawn more and more to the Wellbeing sections here and my real life.

I never quite know when a trauma response will occur. They occurred quite heavily last week. So I did some very effective Exposure Therapy my trauma psych taught me (she individualised it to work for me) and even though it was rough, it was VERY worth it.

Those negative triggers are literally gone now. Incredible.

Feeling the INDEPENDENCE and freedom from the trauma is where I wanted to be.
I may never get "totally" there but I'm more able to manage real life now I know how to deal with them.

Love EM

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey EM,

I think you're right, we are a responsible bunch. Perhaps a lot of how things affect us boils down to how incomprehensible the actions of others are to those of us who take responsibility for ourselves. Just a thought.

The answer to your question for me is yes, and no. I'd say there is a good chance psycho ex was narcissistic - huge sense of entitlement, big on blame shifting, never taking responsibility, that sort of thing. The rest of them... unlikely. My parents, the neglectful ex, I think they were simply so damaged they were failing miserably even at looking after themselves, there just wasn't room for the needs of anyone else. Not that I mean to excuse their actions, but on some distant level I can understand them.

There is merit to your thoughts on our responsible natures. For my part, I would like to think I have both learnt what not to do from my parents/exes and also turned away from perpetuating that sort of crap. There is a third element. Where others failed to value me, I value myself and believe I deserve better than to debase myself by behaving the way these people did. They don't get to take my self-respect, no way.

Path No. 3 is the innate awareness that doesn't need research - but always benefits from being backed up by it. I think there are so many things as well as narcissism that cause people to become abusive or neglectful, and they all result in responsibility being passed to someone else - i.e. us. We learn to be the parent, be the partner, be the friend - basically fill the gaps between what we got and what we need/deserve. I think that's where the responsibility comes from.

Your research suggestion is, however, definitely on my radar.

Blue.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

Hey J*,

Great work with the mindfulness and meditation. I'm by no means a master of it, but have had similar experiences. Somehow even if you can slow the overthinking just a little it can unblock barriers that have kept you going around and around on the same circle. I have had a few times where I've thought I was doing a rubbish job at the meditation, my mind kept wandering off, but at the end suddenly a solution or a totally new line of research to follow popped into my head. It's so worthwhile. I imagine even more so if you're someone who leads with feelings more so than thoughts - I can detach easy enough but can't always find a way around a blockage to solutions.

Nothing wrong with enthusiasm. What you've said does remind me a lot of my sister, actually. Not just about enthusiasm but about feeling like you're too open, and about blaming yourself for things that aren't your fault. It's actually been a good example of nature vs nurture seeing different people respond to basically the same upbringing - my brother and I are "thinking" types in the Myers Briggs scale, my sister is a "feeling" type, and where my brother and I have come away guarded with people and asking "What's wrong with you?" of those who have wronged us, my sister remains open and empathetic, and asks "What's wrong with me?" regarding those abuses. Experience will shape what we do with our personality traits, but I think the basis of our natures stays with us. Sorry, bit of a tangent.

I won't lie, my ego is piqued by you saying you're fascinated with me. Thank you. I don't know if I can teach emotional reserve, only relate my experience and how I process the information that comes with it. As I touched on above, I found the personality type indicator really interesting and useful - it isn't an exact science but rang true enough that it gave me some good insight into my nature and how I relate to others. Might do the same for you? Different types process thoughts and emotions differently, expect different things from various relationships and learn differently.

Are you still in contact with your family? If so, maybe some distance from them will help you get perspective on what is and isn't your responsibility in your interactions with them. When it is still present it can be very hard to separate yourself from it. Aim for your partner (if you can get him talking meaningfully) and friends for deep connection, but preferably not the people who hurt you in the first place.

Blue.

[Clues_Of_Blue]

EM, the one point that really caught me in the last bit you wrote was "closure". I'm so very aware of the who, the how, the why in so much of my stuff - the reactions aren't mysteries to me. But getting closure on it all... that's a whole different ball game. The one possible narcissist in my bunch I could fairly easily dismiss as just plain beyond redemption, case closed there. But some of the other stuff... my sense of closure is a bit muddier.

Independence and freedom from trauma - the worthiest goals. The best revenge is living well, and all that, and living well entails putting the past in the past and the people who are out of our lives out of the living space in our heads. You're doing great with that, considering the hard slog it's been for you. I've come about as far as I can with current understanding of trauma responses, which I think is a fair way with so little help, so now I'm working toward it with my search for knowledge. Knowledge is power, after all.

[ecomama]

Hey Blue

You must have been writing that 1st post to me today as I was thinking similar things.... I had to chuckle though because I was beginning to wonder just WHEN this thread and it's occupants would go into an (another lol) area ...

I read about the 3% Rule ages ago, Lord knows where lol.

I think it's quite an arrogant concept tbh.

But still I use it to teach my children about life. (Wish p.son HAD checked with me over registering his car! but he's great about most other things and only Learning so...)

It's kind of like only 3% of ppl are truly responsible and competent.
So when I see some one do something really really dumb, like on the roads... I say "Ahhh one of the 97%!"

Or when the kids DO do something really responsible I say, "Thank goodness you're one of the 3% lol the world depends on you!"

I'm awful Muriel.

SO there J* a bit more disclosure about who I actually am lol YOUR TURN! hahaha

Blue... closure can be a difficult thing to get! But a wonderful thing to gain ofcourse.

Anyway getting back to the abusive types of personalities (plural)... I learnt in that DV Course that the first instinct a victim gets is a gut instinct that something's "not right".
Then confusion.

There are so many other "reactions" we may have including twisting ourselves into veritable KNOTS trying to work out what's going on, do our best blah blah blah.

I LITERALLY walk away from ppl when that happens now, at work, anywhere.
Ended a very long friendship 18 months ago.
I just thought wow what the....

Done.

I actually told a few of our common friends that I was going to do that and to watch for the endless vilification about me and the attempts at triangulation.... true to TYPE yep it came on thick...

They went NC too.
That's okay she piggy backed those friends from me.

Weird. Took me a while! hahaha.

Blue I think you're going SO well but if you feel you need more individualised help then perhaps just perhaps a trauma psych specialist could help.
Mine was only good for 3 sessions then she "turned" and was bad for the next 2 so I ended then.
Gave her one more chance after some crappy statements.
Passed them by my C and yeah.... yuck.
Done.

Love EM

[Jstar49]

Hi all,

aww Blue! I am fascinated by you! Who is this girl! I say to myself. I literally have no idea! You seem to think and ponder deeply AND empathise and encourage! You have your head screwed on right and yet have still suffered deeply. you have so much wisdom to offer and yet I just want to give you a big hug and tell you it’s ok, you are loved, you are worthy. Even whilst you are assuring me that you know this. Like really KNOW this!

Em, I have received ‘the 7 habits of highly effective people’ in the mail, and after one nite on my shelf I began reading it. Wow! Thankyou so much! You are amazing with your insight and intuition becos this is Exactly! What I need right now! I shall let you know how I go. Or probably I shall attempt to pass it on, on my thread, as per the books suggestion.
closure is hard. I think I get closure and am ok with things the way they are, and then.... curve ball!

I am in sporadic contact with my family members individually blue. Except for Christmas. And recently mums birthday! It depends on them. I have been making excuses, which seem to be gratefully received. Haha lol!

so interesting about your sister! So different! Is she younger?

hugs

J*