Here We Go Again

[Cucuboth]

So, here we go again. In to yet another year. Another year that starts like the last one ended. And the one before that. And before that. And continue that another 25+ times. Had another Christmas alone. And another New Year's Eve. My therapist said to try and get my family involved in some form of physical contact ... a hug for instance. But no. They don't want to. So that's that door shut. Again. And they are the only people in my life. I've been writing to another online forum as well as this one, but, it's not doing much good. A lot of same old cliched 'advice' that I have tried to death already. A few that say "message me if you want to talk", so I do, and never hear from them again. Not that any are in Australia anyway. The feeling of isolation is just .... it's like I am being choked. Slowly. I called Lifeline yet again, and yet again got the same disinterest. Yay Lifeline ... way to make someone feel even more worthless. It's going to be another year of the same thing. There's no more hope to hold on to. Just like there's nobody who will hold me. Maybe there is some kind of symmetry in that, I don't know. I can't do this on my own, and yet there is nobody who wants to help. There's only so many times you can 'put yourself out there' again. And again. And again. Only so many hobbies you can have. Only so many times you can ignore it, focus on something else and hope that it will happen 'someday when you least expect it'. Because it never does. I'm just expected to shut up and be happy alone. To be happy, lonely. And I just can't do that.

[White_Rose]

It seems we are mutually apologising and I think I am not explaining myself properly. Never mind, we are still talking and that is the point.

When I was reading your last post it struck me that I have done exactly what you describe. I run away from people because I believe they are fed up with me, can't be bothered, they are angry because I cannot relate to them plus a whole host of other reasons. Gradually I am learning that I have people in my life that do care. I know this is not the same as your situation, I am gobsmacked that I didn't realise the similarity of our lives.

I too have worked with therapists who I felt have become fed up with me and/or angry. One person actually swore at me using the f... word. Did my self esteem a great deal of good, not. With the benefit of hindsight I can see why, to some extent. Doesn't excuse the therapist though. He was supposed to be in control of himself and keeping out of the picture so that I could learn about myself.

So what did I do? I'm not entirely certain. I know I made great resolutions to keep to myself, which I promptly forgot at the first indication that someone cared about me. I suppose it goes like this. I feel hurt because no one likes or wants me, I will stay away from people so I don't get hurt, I am lonely because no one wants me. I suppose I am also stubborn and refused to give up my activities. I think sometimes you just have to go for it.

I agree about the role playing, it does seem artificial. But the whole point of this role playing is that you learn, theoretically, how to continue a conversation once it has started. Of course every situation is different. You were practising with someone who wanted to encourage you so it was an ideal situation. It can still have benefits though. What do you say after the initial opening? It's always different and needs you to be flexible with your responses.

May I ask a personal question? You have frequently remarked that you are ugly, or that others have said you are ugly. What is it that you or others find you ugly? Please ignore the question if it is too intrusive.

I know that my attitude is crucial. Others pick up signs of uneasiness very quickly and want to move away. I need to be as positive as I can, without the singing and dancing, and work on putting the other at ease.

Somehow I feel I am not helping much. Perhaps I need to go back to sleep and start again.

Mary

[Croix]

Dear Cucuboth~

Starwolf mentioned: "there will be others to connect and chat with" - true

While not exactly what you want - I'm as virtual to you as you are to me, I've been reading SF since the 50's and watched more than a few - though not over-keen on that many modern films.

I'm based in:

Forums/ BB Social Zone/ Croix Parler (That thread, among other things, is for me to forget the serious)

Why not pop a post in there to give your take on Blade Runner (whichever version you choose)? A view other than mine could be interesting...

Regards

Croix

[Starwolf]

Hi again, Cucuboth.

If nothing else, I do hope you are finding some measure of solace in interacting with us. Personally, I find conversing in depth with those who are/have been experiencing mental illness very rewarding. The way similar conditions affect us all differently stimulate my interest. I guess I'm generally interested in people and their complexity.

Let's put aside the fact that you have tried everything and it didn't work. Because I was once trapped in a bottomless pit, with feelings of being ostracized similar to yours (and similar feelings of worthlessness too), I would like to share with you how I found out I wasn't trapped at all.

It gradually dawned on me that it was precisely this "aura" of neediness and poor self-image which scared people off. I found it reassuring that they didn't respond in this way consciously. It was mostly an unconscious reaction. Finding this out helped take it less personally. Now I had at last something I could understand and apply myself to.

I won't lie to you...it took years of hard mind work to gain self-esteem and confidence...and so to shed neediness. Lo and behold, gradually, people's reluctance gave way to willingness to connect. The cause of their "aloofness" was no longer perceptible to their subconscious mind. They no longer felt the need to run for the hills.

My wish for you is that you will soon find the root cause of your isolation.

Always good chatting with you.

[Cucuboth]

Hi Shelley,

Your suggestion about hugging family. I've tried that, although not in that situation. A few years ago, my cat died. I've always had pets, and always had cats. My parents had cats even before I was born, so, literally the last 4 years is the only time in my life I haven't had a cat around. So, anyway, when he died I was obviously upset, and I went to hug my mother, and pretty much got pushed away. My father ... well, he comes from the men aren't supposed to hug each other era, so no go there. But that is how it's always been in my family. They'll hug my sister. They'll hug her kids (even my father, so grandsons are OK to hug apparently). Even when I was a kid, I would see other parents hug their children, my parents hug my sister, but then not me. I think it's probably why I used to sometimes wonder if I was adopted or something (no offence intended to those who were adopted). My nephews won't hug me either. That's what I've grown up with, and you can't make people change how they are just because it doesn't suit you (no matter how much it might hurt). Maybe that's why physical contact is so important to me, because I've never really had any. But I still can't find it. Unless I pay for it. Which even the thought of just adds to that feeling of being unwanted and untouchable again.

I like looking up at the stars as well. Just laying back, and thinking, and wondering. It's amazing how much we miss, if we live in the cities and/or suburban areas. Go out somewhere where there is no light pollution from houses and street lights, and it is almost mind numbing to see so much. It's one of my 'dreams', so to speak, to be able to share doing that with someone. I did have a couple of apps on my old ipad, that you could hold up to the sky and they would align themselves in the right direction and show you where the constellations and planets were. It was pretty cool.

[Guest_1055]

Ah Good evening to you,

That sounds like a bit of a mystery happening there in your family. Like why wouldn't they hug you? But I am assuming when you were a baby or a very young child your parents must have held you, because how can one take care of a baby without some sort of physical contact?? Have you got any photos of that time at all? It is all very interesting if you don't mind me saying that. I don't want to offend you or anything....

Also that would have been very sad for you to see your sister get hugged and not you. I can imagine a precious little boy just standing there desperately yearning for a hug, but none is given. You probably felt rejected or something. Oh... like you said you didn't feel wanted. I am very sorry, the thought of a little boy feeling not loved breaks my heart. And yeah to pay for a hug well it just feels a bit empty like, because there is no affection, friendliness, or love that goes with it. And yeah you could be right about desiring hugs so much because you didn't get any whilst growing up... From what you have said, I am almost convinced you love language is "physical touch". If you want to learn more about that, because it does help to understand ones self better, well there is info online. There is even a free test you can take to see what category you best fit in. Just Google the "five love languages".

I am sorry about the loss of your cat too. I had a kitty cat once, she was my only friend at one time. Her name was Taomi, she was black with white little paws , so..so cute and very little.

And that does sound pretty good that app you had on you iPad. So once you find out where the planet's are, one could get out a telescope and have a closer look. Such greatness up above.

I do hope you are feeling somewhat better.

Oh I also can vouch for what someone else mentioned, maybe it was Starwolf??. It was about things sort of radiating off oneself. I did learn that too in this group I go to. The main one being "rejection", if one is feeling this deep inside them, well it can send out this sort of hidden vibe, and sometimes others pick up on that. And some can then reject that particular person. I haven't figured this all out myself as yet. But it does help if we can actually accept and like ourselves. That has been my experience anyway. Hope you don't mind me saying that.

Well I need to go now, as someone is waiting for me to go to the gym with them.

Bye now...and I hope you have a good day tomorrow.

Shelley

[Cucuboth]

Hi Shelley

You were right. My 'love language' is physical touch, AND quality time. The test I did gave you a score out of 12, and I got 10 for both of those, then a 7 for words of affirmation, a 3 for acts of service, and a 0 for receiving gifts, which I guess is about right, since I see physical touch and quality time as a gift.

There are photos of me as a baby being held by my mother. But not many. And from primary school age there's none. From age 5 or so, there's not many of me at all, and the photos there are are either school photos or in a family group, while there are several albums full of my sister. My parents never hid the fact that they had a favorite, and that I was, very obviously, the disappointment.

Today wasn't a good day. Again. Had a meeting with my mental health case manager, and I tried to bring up the subject of how the lack of physical touch was important for me to resolve, but as soon as I did she suddenly had to run off to another meeting, and a usual hour appointment ended after 15 minutes. As usual it just gets brushed aside in the hopes I will shut up and forget about it. Or that's how it feels anyway.

[Cucuboth]

Hi Mary,

I've had therapists use the 'f' word too. Most when they get angry at me because they think that I haven't tried their suggestions hard enough, or because I refuse to just accept how things are and just settle with feeling like this for the rest of my life. It's not particularly great when a therapist pretty much tells you that how you feel right now is probably the best it's going to get for you, unless you just accept that nobody likes you or wants you. But I've been told that quite a few times.

I don't know why I've always been considered ugly. I just have. As a kid, and through my teenage years, I was skinny. Fit, I did quite a lot of hiking and cycling back then (strange to think of that now), but skinny. I was considered underweight at 17/18, and the doctor telling me I had to put on weight. Of course, as soon as I did, I suddenly became too fat for everyone. I had blond hair, with a cowlick, and pale skin. I don't tan at all, but burn, badly. I got so fed up with the blond hair and cowlick that I now shave my head. In my teenage years I also had bad acne, but I wasn't the worst case in school. There were guys that had acne worse than I did, but they always had friends and girlfriends, while for me it was always constantly a source of bullying and often given as a reason why nobody wanted to be friends with me and why girls didn't like me (my teenage years talking to girls can probably be literally counted as well under 10 minutes). I've always been called ugly. Even therapists have described me as 'unusual looking'.

As for me, I think I am fairly normal looking. Average, at best. I admit that I am no George Clooney or Chris Hemsworth. But when I look in the mirror, I see someone that everyone else seems to think is ugly. I see someone that nobody has even tried to touch, and I wonder why, and it makes me feel like I must be a monster.

[pipsy]

Hi Cucuboth. I would never resort to name-calling as I don't appreciate it nor do I believe it's necessary. Mary made a suggestion referring to Angli-care which she volunteers with. I realize the last thing you probably want to hear about is another volunteer job, but, here goes. Do you have a license. I'm unsure where you live, but in 2015, just before I left my ex, he left his job after 25 years. I'll cut to the point quickly. Because he chose to leave his job before the actual retiring age (65), we had to both find volunteer work as a work-for-the -dole scheme. I had not worked at all in Australia, so I was petrified, putting it mildly. I applied to Able Australia for work and after being interviewed, having my license photocopied for police check etc, I was accepted. Like you, I was absolutely out of my depth, no conversation skills, no self esteem. Our firm has strict guidelines about interacting and working as a team. We transport people of all ages and disabilities, including the mentally handicapped. We take them on shopping trips, tours, we have various w/shops where everyone is made to feel part of the team. I initially began with helping people (clients) with their shopping, loading the shopping onto a van, helping some of the clients with seatbelts etc. I now drive for this firm, I've been there over 12 months and the camaraderie has been unbelievable. Bullying is totally unacceptable and if it does occur, the bully is dealt with immediately. Some of our workers also suffer various mental health issues, this is accepted and we will work closely with the person till they feel comfortable.

Lynda

[JessF]

Cucuboth said:

Today wasn't a good day. Again. Had a meeting with my mental health case manager, and I tried to bring up the subject of how the lack of physical touch was important for me to resolve, but as soon as I did she suddenly had to run off to another meeting, and a usual hour appointment ended after 15 minutes. As usual it just gets brushed aside in the hopes I will shut up and forget about it. Or that's how it feels anyway.

Hello Cucuboth, sorry to barge in but I've been reading through this thread and had to comment on this incident... I'm not sure exactly how this subject came up in your appointment, or how often you bring this up with your mental health case manager, but it may be that she feels intimidated or threatened by having a man say to her that "lack of physical touch was important for me to resolve". I would suggest that this is a topic more appropriate for you to discuss with your psychologist, as it may be coming across in a way that you're not intending.

[White_Rose]

Hello Cucuboth

Nice to hear from you again. I have just read JessF post and I have to agree with her. I think if someone wanted to talk with me about their need for physical contact, I would be nervous. I expect you were being factual about your needs but as Jess has commented, it's more appropriate to discuss this with your psych.

I wonder if this is part of the problem about people not wanting to talk to you. I can, and do, discuss fairly personal parts of my life with a couple of selected friends, but not with those I have just met. I wonder if it would be useful if you wrote down what you talked about in your conversations. This is all off the top of my head but it would be similar to a man I know who is a client of the pastoral care team where I volunteer. He has a one track conversation mode which can be upsetting for others. The subject he talks about is not in any way bad, just same old, same old. Others get restless and impatient because they want to move on with the conversation.

Despite my best endeavours I find myself getting irritated at times and tuning out of his comments. Not very nice of me I agree, but when all attempts to change the subject either fail or he leads the conversation back, I get frustrated. Do you think this may be a contributing factor to your interactions? Can I suggest you note what you say on various occasions. Keep a list of topics. You are most welcome to write them here but only if you think it will help and you want to do this.

On the subject of talking, have you heard of Toastmasters? There are clubs across the world and I belonged to two clubs for a number of years. I do not have my Toastmasters gear, or perhaps I just cannot find it, but you can search the net for Toastmasters. I just did a search and came up with mostly clubs local to Brisbane where I live. If you search you may find clubs in your area. They advertise themselves as teaching public speaking skills, but in reality most people are happy to learn about general speaking skills. I enjoyed myself immensely in both the clubs I belonged to at different times. Lots of fun.

I think this could be helpful as part of the Toastmasters activities is evaluating speeches, short and long ones, and the comments have to address this properly, not shying away if the comments may be difficult. I don't mean speakers are verbally beaten, but feedback to them is honest, as objective as possible, but usually only one aspect at a time. Check it out.

Mary