Depression and negative affirmations

[passingthrough]

Hi all,

I'm not sure how to use this forum to get help, and feel that I have nothing to offer fellow participants, but I need to try something at this time. 

I'm 34M, probably somewhat autistic (but undiagnosed) and been struggling with what I roughly call depression. I'm currently taking SNRI antidepressants and attending therapy. Other than that it's hard to say what's going on with any clarity.

I regularly tell myself these things, usually in threes and always including the last two:

“I can’t do anything right”
“I can’t do it”

"I can't do anything"
“I hate myself”
“I’m a loser”
“I deserve to die”

I believe that this is causing me to feel worse, and creates negative feedback loops. I just want to know if anyone has any suggestions for how to either stop or ignore this behaviour. I've tried contradicting it ("I'm doing my best, and I deserve to be happy") and tried logically dismantling it ("Loser? I didn't realise this was a competition", "Deserve to die? Everyone dies!") but so far nothing has really worked. It's mainly triggered by rejection or criticism, either by my partner or me, for example criticism of my work performance or behaviour.  I've talked to my therapist about it, but we haven't really discussed any strategies. 

I'm happy to read other threads, just don't know where to start. Thanks.

[therising]

Hi passingthrough

I feel for you so much as you struggle with one of the worst aspects of depression, inner dialogue. Inner dialogue can definitely feel soul destroying, stressful and/or depressing at times, that's for sure. 

While what works for everyone is different, I've found what tends to make the most difference to me is analysing the hell out of everything. This way, there's a little more heaven (aka 'sense of peace') that can be found through certain revelations. Analysing the hell out of everything is a way of getting to the truth. The questions can become 'Why can't I do anything right?', 'Why can't I do it?', all the way through to 'Why do I deserve to no longer be on this earth?'. Btw, with one single question it can take a heck of a lot of analysis and further questioning to reach the right conclusion. While a psychologist may be an expert in doing this, picking something apart, we can also do it on our own. So, 'Why can't I do anything right? Who or what led me to this conclusion? Who showed me how to meet the challenges I face? Who guided me in the way of better understanding them and mastering them? Who encouraged me to try, try and try again, with courage, until I could master these challenges? On the other hand, who fills me with self doubt? Do I have the right kind of focus in order to complete these tasks? Do I have an issue with focus, more than anything? Who inspired or inspires me? Are some of these tasks just not me? Is it not in my nature to be a master at them? Are they other people's thing/field of expertise? What am I naturally good at?' and on and on it goes. So, all this relating to just one statement, 'I can't do anything right'. I imagine there are a number of things you can do right, a number of challenges you do rise to and master. While my 19yo son manages being at the high functioning end of the autism spectrum, there are some things he definitely struggles with (focus included) but at the same time he has some truly mind blowing capabilities that not everyone has.

Something to consider is that 'computer' or 'processor' up there in our head, our brain. How does it tick? Like any computer, it relies on hardware and software. How our brain is built physically, relates to the hardware. The software more so relates to the mental programs. Some programs involve belief systems. Others involve downloads such as math, language and all that other stuff we learned at school. Others can involve natural capabilities we came to life with. Btw, it pays to identify the 'viruses' (terrible destructive belief systems others have put into our head) and get rid of those viruses. Being organic creatures, we also rely heavily on chemistry (dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, B12, iron, estrogen, testosterone and all that kind of stuff).

There is just so much to come to know and understand about our self, so much. As a gal who's fascinated by how I work on a physical level, mental level and natural or soulful level, I've learned to say over the years 'I am fascinated and amazed when it comes to who I am and how I work'. This has come to replace the statement 'I hate myself'.

[Eagle Ray]

Hi passingthrough (and wave to the rising),

Those statements you say to yourself are  things I’ve said to myself in one version or another over many years. For me, they were often more feelings of low worth that didn’t necessarily have language, but I felt those things if that makes sense. I can try to explain approaches that have helped me, but just take it on board only if it resonates for you.

In very recent years I’ve come to understand that these thoughts/feelings come from a part of me, not the whole of me. I’ve learned about an approach called Internal Family Systems that’s sometimes used in psychology to understand parts of self. If a certain part became dissociated at some point (often due to a life stress, childhood experiences etc) it can take on a life of its own and feels very involuntary. It becomes kind of autonomous and we can start to believe this part is the whole of us when it’s only a part. The goal in Internal Family Systems is to understand why that part became split off and started acting as it did. Then it’s a case of being really kind to that part and integrating it back into the whole. As the integration progressively happens, the now cared for part is far less prone to attack the core self. I’m certainly experiencing this shift in myself now. My inner critic still emerges at times but I notice it quickly now and become kinder to myself instead. Like you, I found just trying to replace negative affirmations with positive affirmations didn’t work. I had to develop an inner system of self care and as that grows I am far less hard on myself. This process has involved feeling that care emotionally in my body, not just replacing negative thoughts with positive thoughts, if that makes sense?

Working with a good psychologist has helped in this regard as she has been a compassionate witness for things I’ve been through. I had complex trauma in childhood which was the major contributing factor to my feelings of shame, inadequacy and self-criticism. It’s very powerful when someone else witnesses us in a kind and really present way. It is often what then kicks our own self-care capacity into action.

I’ve suspected for a long time that I’m also on the autism spectrum and also very likely have adhd at the milder end. I think having such traits can also leave us feeling inadequate at times as we may process things differently from others and feel like we don’t fit into society in certain ways. I’m learning to value the particular ways my brain works and realise there are some real advantages as well as challenges with what is often termed as being neurodiverse. I think if we encounter others like ourselves too that can really help as we feel less alone in who we are and that we can have a sense of belonging with similar others.

Those are just some thoughts and my own experiences. I’m not sure if they’re helpful but I really wish you the best and hope you can have some further discussions with your therapist that help you to process things. A friend who has complex ptsd like myself, often says we are completely ok as we are in this moment now. It’s only our conditioning that did something along the way that contorted our sense of self. He has really helped me towards full self-acceptance, something he is finding himself now after years of struggle. So it is possible to change how we feel about ourselves. I still have vulnerabilities but I can tend to them with kindness and support myself now. I’m happy to chat anytime.

Kind regards,

Eagle Ray

[passingthrough]

Hi therising, 

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post and sharing the questioning technique that has helped you. It's certainly helpful to also read so many examples.

My hopes aren't very high this kind of analysis would be particularly effective, but I'll try to keep it in mind. In some cases the things I'm saying don't have any recent basis, they're things I've been saying since 2016. I can't remember if there was a break in the middle somewhere or where they came from at that time. They're also kind of beliefs, in that I fit whatever is happening to me at the time into the framework of these statements.

More relevant maybe is that I don't know the answers to most of the questions you wrote or there are no answers. I know they're only meant to be examples, but these are the kind of things I've talked about with therapists and probably learned a fair amount but not been able to change anything so far.

I'm particularly interested in your comments about focus, I didn't mention that in my post at all but it is something that I feel I'm struggling with currently and it's making work very difficult. I don't think it's an inherent weakness though. In the before times I was able to focus a lot better, for example when I was studying at University. For example I used to really enjoy taking exams, which I don't think would be true of someone with problems focusing. Was that something you picked up, or just another example?

Thanks again for your reply, I'm very grateful.

[passingthrough]

Hi Eagle Ray,

Thanks for your reply, you've touched on a lot of things that are familiar to me.  

In my last session I did start to identify things that came from my "thinking self" and from what I called my "unthinking self". I don't know if this a "feeling self", "impulsive self", or a combination of other things (sexual self maybe) and It's clear that these specific phrases are coming from an unthinking place.

The IFS framework sounds interesting. I don't really identify as a trauma survivor, I think I had a normal and safe (privileged?) upbringing and don't remember anything bad happening. That said I does seem possible that I developed multiple modes of behaviour in childhood, both as a result of autistic masking and maybe from hiding part of my sexuality, so this could explain the presence of a dissociated part like you describe.  

I'm trying to engage with community around mental health, autism and sexuality, similarly to how you describe, and while I think it's helpful it's also been terrifying. I feel as though my afflictions are so much milder than many people in these communities, but yet as small as they are I have no way of coping with them and they've caused me problems for so long. At other times I see people who have similar circumstances to me and have been able to cope, and I feel awful for not being able to make more of my life. 

I've gone all over the place sorry, but I really want to thank you for taking the time to write that reply.

[therising]

Hi passingthrough (and a wave back at you Eagle Ray🖐🙂)

With a lack of focus being an example and one of the challenges my son faces, it's more a side effect of being too full of wonder, too full of curiosity and being able to tap into his imagination way too easily. He is one of the most wonderful, most curious and most imaginative people I know. While some folk may take 10 minutes or so of deep breathing and relaxation techniques before entering into a highly imaginative guided meditation, my son can relax within a split second and be in that imagined place. He's an expert daydreamer. This is an incredible ability that posed a lot of problems at school in year 12. On the other hand, outside of school, someone could be facing a major challenge in life and through his imagination he will see not only see the underlying issues they're facing but also the way forward for them. So, you could say he's a natural born seer. He was like this even as a little kid.

Being able to tap into a certain part of our self in the blink of an eye is an ability or a strength until it starts to create a sense of imbalance, a sense of suffering or other challenges. Then it's an ability that creates problems. With you mentioning the thinking self, the unthinking self, the feeling self and impulsive self, there can also be a wonderful aspect of self which can lead us to wonder, a curious aspect of who we care which can lead us to answers through a sense of curiosity and the highly imaginative aspect of who we are which can lead us to imagine both good and bad. We can consciously tap into any part of our self at any given time or some aspect can be triggered to come to life, whether we like it or not. This is what I've found for myself, personally. Seeing practice makes perfect, as they say, if I'm in the habit of practicing tapping into some problematic part of myself, I'm going to have problems. And the more often I'm in the practice of channeling this part of myself the stronger it gets with practice. In some cases the challenge becomes about practicing bringing a new part of myself to life or resurrecting a familiar and more reliable part of me. Yep, easier said than done at times.

Another way of looking at this is...if you can imagine an old style wagon wheel, with the hub being your core sense of self, all the spokes stem from your core sense of self. Each spoke is an aspect of you, an aspect you can tap into at any given time. The whole of who you are is the entire wheel. It's not just the hub and not just the spokes, it's everything. It's important to have a core sense of self that is in charge of how and when we consciously tap into the many facets or spokes. If we want to bring the adventurer in us to life, we have to know how to do it, how to trigger or channel it. If we want to constructively bring the feeler in us to life, we have to know what tends to conjure it. If we want to bring the sage in us to life, we may have to know how to go into our imagination and find the sage and have a chat with it. And if we want to bring the non thinking intuitive aspect in us to life, we'll have to know how to not think (for a start). If there are dozens of different facets or aspects to us, one of life's challenges may be to discover and better understand them all.

[passingthrough]

Hi therising,

Thanks again for your reply and providing me with your perspective - there are certainly some new ideas there although I feel a bit overwhelmed so I'll have to re read it a few times in the coming weeks.

I hope your son is doing ok, they sounds like a wonderful person. It's great that you're able to appreciate their strengths, I don't think anyone has ever been able to tell me what mine are in quite that way. 

[Eagle Ray]

Hi passingthrough and therising,

Passingthrough, it is possible that what you understand as your “non-thinking self” is something that has kind of been dissociated, especially if you have been masking autistic traits and parts of your sexuality. I think if we cannot freely express parts of ourselves, and particularly if we feel any shame when growing up in association with those parts, they can kind of split off somewhat and exist in a shadow space. Our more consciously “thinking self” may be getting on with life while blocking them, but then they can have other ways of surfacing and can feel autonomous because they’re not fully integrated parts.

I think feeling you have to mask any part of yourself because it feels necessary to feel safe at the time, can produce some trauma-like effects such as dissociation, even if there hasn’t been what sometimes get called Big T trauma events. One thing my mother did was try to ignore the fact I was a girl. She only gave me boys clothes to wear for a long time and anything feminine given to me by relatives was put in a bag in her cupboard and I wasn’t allowed access to them, except on very rare (like 3 or 4 times) occasions such as going to a cousin’s wedding. People would mistake me for a boy in public and she’d never correct them. I wanted to be seen as a girl as that was who I understood I was, but for reasons I still don’t fully understand my mother made me feel shame for being female. To this day I struggle still somewhat with that part of my identity because I can feel incredibly awkward with my femininity even though I wish it was easy for me to express. I know this can have a source of depression embedded in it.

So I do wonder whether if you feel you have had to mask parts of yourself if it is tied up with feelings of shame and also the depression symptoms you’ve had? I think not being able to freely be yourself can cause the parts that are uncomfortable to freeze and dissociate. My experience has been that depression connects with freezing in the nervous system, when it feels like we can’t go forwards or backwards with something and just have to lock it down inside of us instead. But it can also get to a stage where the part wants expression, setting up a bit of an internal conflict. I often find the greatest emotional turmoil happens just before a breakthrough. This could be what the rising describes as a part coming to life. 

Although I’m familiar with IFS my psychologist and myself have not so much been actively using it, but more it has manifested in the course of therapy. The most useful work I’ve done with her has been somatic work, specifically the approach called Somatic Experiencing, where we’ve processed past traumatic events. But what has facilitated an IFS-type process along the way has been having someone witness and be with me through the feelings that were both generated and suppressed in the past. She has really helped me to sense and feel into my own body. This has given me the tools to sit and be with my own feelings with kindness instead of blocking them. This is then how dissociated parts in me have begun to integrate. So for me I’ve found somatic work has been how I have begun to heal the alienated and traumatised parts. I think any kind of work with a therapist that involves them being a compassionate witness can help facilitate this kind of healing. It’s a tender process but rewarding. As integration of parts starts to happen the psyche and body (feeling self) start to organically feel more whole again.

I can relate to what you say about trying to connect with communities. I went to two autism Meetup groups in 2015/2016. I struggled to feel like I deserved to be there. I did meet people who were similar to me though and also some who were very different. Interestingly one of my closest friends told me recently she thinks she’s on the spectrum and it made sense as we get on so easily and understand how each other works to a large degree. I think as you start to feel more integrated within yourself it will probably feel less scary connecting with others like you. I’m also learning not to feel bad about the parts of myself with autistic and adhd traits and embrace them instead. But it takes time and I understand it can feel quite difficult at first. Be kind to yourself and also try not minimise your struggles relative to others. I did that for a long time and my psychologist has said to me there’s no comparison with others, it’s our own unique journey.

Sorry for such a long post! Take care,

ER

[yggdrasil]

Hi passingthrough,

Welcome to these forums! Your experiences sound very, very similar to my own. 

The things that worked for me were

1. Trying to create a maximally stable home life, routine etc.
2. A therapy approach called "schema therapy". Schema is like a supercharged version of CBT; it addresses the connections between challenging thoughts, feelings and behaviours. Schema involves thinking deeply about what need or survival benefit these dysfunctional patterns may have once served, reflecting on whether they're still well-calibrated, and if not gradually changing them. It becomes about catching the "early warning signs", e.g. the "I can't do anything right" statement above, before things spiral.
3. Challenging physical activity. For me this was skateboarding. The danger element forces you out of negative spirals... You have to concentrate on just skating or you get hurt! I think martial arts, acrobatics, footy etc also good for this.
4. Exploring spiritual connections with others. This can be through religion, charity work etc.
5. Taking things in very tiny steps, otherwise it's all too hard. E.g. if getting out of bed is too hard, just sitting up for a while, etc.

Hope you're going ok this weekend, and best of luck with your recovery!

yggdrasil 

[passingthrough]

Hi ER, 

Thank you for sharing so much of that with me, absolutely no need to apologise. I feel like giving you a hug when I read the part about your mother dressing you like that  (I'm not much of a hugger in reality, but it's easy to be all talk online). Despite what you wrote about not comparing situations I can't help but think that was so much more damaging than anything that could have happened to me. 

I think a challenge for me is that I don't have much of a memory of that early part of my life, in general my memory doesn't seem to work exactly the same way as other people, which I think might be another ND thing possibly. It means that I don't remember what contributed to any supposed small T trauma and so everything ends up being based on speculation or filling in gaps. It seems like talking about things does seem to help me remember things sometimes though.

I realise that I hadn't mentioned shame at all in my first post, I guess it must have been pretty obvious, but you're right to bring it up as it's likely the source of the self-criticisms, and something that I'm aware that I still struggle with. Your comparison between feeling depressed and being unable to go forwards backwards is very much how I feel. I'm forever talking to therapists about being "stuck". Overall I'm so thankful that you wrote that message to me, I think that I am feeling more understood.