Forgiveness

[ecomama]

"Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could be any different".  Oprah Winfrey

How many times have you heard someone say, "You need to forgive that person" ??

One billion and counting would be my answer lol. My question to the person saying that to me, was 
"Tell me HOW to forgive, like give me the STEPS to follow and I will do it!"... 

No one has been able to answer the HOW to do this. Maybe I have forgiven now, maybe I haven't, IDK. 

Is forgiveness a practice we work at every day? 
Is it visualising a little gift box wrapped with a bow and handed to that person? (Yep that was suggested to me lol). 
Does TIME help us forgive or is this just "letting go"? 

I've found it VERY hard to Pray loving Prayers for people I needed to forgive. Just sayin' lol. 

Although the Bible has Jesus' words "Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do." I'm not Jesus. 

Have you forgiven people who've wronged you? 

Could you be brave enough to share with us HOW you forgave that person or people? 

Thankyou for your contributions. 
Love EM

[white knight]

Hi Em, great post albeit with a need.

I've had the same issues and now can move on when I couldnt years ago. The major transformation I undertook was a change in views. It sounds so arrogant so forgive me (sic) but I came to the conclusion that many human beings are flawed. If we mention some flaws they include- addictions like gambling, drugs, affairs, manipulation, anger, abuse, cruelty and the list goes on. Now as a guess I believe such flaws would include a massive 30% and a further 20% could be added that have flaws with how they treat their partner but might not treat any other person the same way.

So this "arrogance" has served me well because I now pigeon hole some people, it ebb and flows, some go out and get readmitted, some are kept out.

When my youngest daughter reached 18yo, I had not only survived 11 years married to a narcissist 1st wife but I had endured 14 years of terrible communication from her mother as I had my kids every fortnight and school holidays. Such was the abuse over all that time I told her I never ever want to talk to her again. And I never have, havent seen her dont want to. Since then (2010) time has served me well to drift her out of my thoughts but yes, not easy. My now 2nd wife was married to my BIL so she knows the torment I endured. We do on occasion chat about that dysfunctional family but less and less. 

Can I forgive her? Not on your life I cant. She was solely responsible for 11 years of abuse that resulted in a suicide attempt followed by 14 years of abuse even though I didnt live with her.

Not forgiving is as much a right as forgiving- your choice. Isn't freedom grand?

TonyWK 

[Guest_1584]

Hi people and yeah , something l've thought a lot about through life.

But l agree with the arrogance edge if l understand it in the way it was meant correctly but if not then l have my own.

l've never been too concerned about forgiveness though mostly of those that have done or do this or that. lt's over rated and expecting too much imo most of the time. l've had my thoughts about who they are and l've usually seen that and known where all the lines in such personalities will end up being. l've been a pretty spot on judge of character most of my life so there's been very few surprises.

Unfortunately most people of this or that character usually do exactly what you saw that they would.

The true hearted and honest, the genuine and authentic, just never cease to amaze and forgiving and forgetting them of anything really is not even a question mostly we all mess up but the others, well, what can ya say. They don't get a pass from me but not to say l'm in anger or grudging, they've only done what l already knew they would.

Sadly by later teens l realized it's a waste of time expecting anything more from the wrong people, l'm pretty realistic about who is what and it's not even worth a head shake to me really.

rx

[ecomama]

Dear Tony WK, lol yes indeed freedom is GRAND! 

Also yes you are forgiven hahaha, always. Your message brought more questions so thanks for that lol. 

I guess what you COULD be saying is that by knowing the person we want to forgive or in your case "have freedom from"? 
We need to KNOW them?

Tbh I know that ALL people are flawed. We are merely human. 

I believe we have lessons to learn and if we don't learn them, they come back BIGGER and uglier lol in the case of my last 2 marriages. Ewwww much uglier. 

Perhaps by knowing the person and their limited capacity to give a duck about anyone and everything around them only focussing on themselves 100%, I've found I don't want them anywhere NEAR me. 

But is this forgiveness? 
Perhaps it's only the FIRST step to freedom. 

I want complete and TOTAL freedom which is apparently what forgiveness brings us. Do I HAVE that? IDK. 

I feel asleep last night listening to a clip on HOW to forgive, yeah it was very boring. Didn't make any difference to me lol. 
Does THIS mean I HAVE forgiven? 

I find it hard to measure. 
Tony, is our complete forgiveness measured by the level of FREEDOM we feel? 

To BREATHE freely is a beautiful freedom. 

Love EMxxxx

[ecomama]

Hey rx, THANK YOU and you brought up REALLY important factors which I make distinctions from. 

Forgiveness is not saying what they did or still do is OK. 
Aha no never. 

Perhaps it IS more of a FREEDOM from any attachment to them that is within forgiveness? 
And I mean freedom from even thinking about them, freedom of thoughts clear of these people. 

Then there's the distinction between forgiving them and forgetting about them. 
The difference there is that these people were part of our life's story. Forgetting probably requires a Men In Black zingy instrument lol. 
They have been in the fabric of our lives so there's no getting rid of that, in fact I try to USE that experience to create a HIGHER level of understanding. 

So funny rx, I searched forgiveness and found VENGEANCE lol! And REVENGE omg lol! 
WHAT? 
Perhaps, even that WAS my initial reaction for x long. As much as I was dragged through legal channels for YEARS, I tried to do so Praying the entire time. Armouring up 100% BUT Praying for God's Will to be Done. 
And it was, lol I think it was because I WON hahaha. 

Then I found the BEAUTIFUL saying "The best revenge is living your BEST life". 
I think it IS BUT I've rewritten that saying with my own ending.... "The best revenge is living my own best life and detaching from all that was then". 

Then I had the difficulty of this focussing on what was there. 

Learning to distinguish good people from bad people or their bad actions is a very difficult thing for those of us who were raised with extreme abuse and neglect. 
BECAUSE "these people" were behaving like the norm we always experienced. 

I relate to Oprah so much because she also had a poverty stricken abusive childhood with extreme dysfunction in her primary care giver relationships. She has made her own life's struggles very public so we can KNOW that we need to work on these things AND life can be AMAZING! 

And indeed it is. 

Thanks RX
Love EMxxxx

[smallwolf]

Desmond Tutu and his daughter wrote a book titled "The book of forgiveness" describing four steps to forgiveness - Admitting the wrong and acknowledging the harm; Telling one's story and witnessing the anguish; Asking for forgiveness and granting forgiveness; and renewing or releasing the relationship. 

It is not easy and individual steps may be repeated multiple times. Forgiveness is not really about letting the other off the hook for something they have done. Rather it is a process of moving forward when someone has wronged you or vice versa. 

Does it work?

In moving forward, whether a relationship is renewed or released, it is no longer the same as it was. And it does not you forget what happened. Perhaps accepting where things are and not getting stuck in a moment in time.

[ecomama]

Thankyou smallwolf. Lol a HOW TO guide! 

It's on my Book List to buy asap. 

Thankyou. 

Some of those steps appear to be in opposition to each other so I'm sure the book in it's entirety will explain this, bringing a greater understanding. I certainly respect the authors! 

I'm on a steep trajectory UPwards atm. It's freaking AWESOME lol. 

I was aware this week that with all the work I've done and conversations I've had with so many people, that perhaps I haven't completely forgiven some people... 
because the ex mother in law from her very special place of hell lol, came into my mind last night. 
I thought I needed to WRITE a letter of forgiveness to her (don't worry I'm NOT going to do that lol, the very LAST thing I want is her or any of them thinking that would be an open invitation for contact. We're ALL strict NC). 
I never want that back in my life in ANY form, not even thought form. 

It could be an obstacle from reaching higher potentials if I hold on to this in any way. 
Hence this thread was birthed. 

My thoughts of her were not past thoughts, they were PRESENT thoughts. I know WE are all on HER mind as she's a succubus and needs to drain all from anyone around, mostly money lol. Plus fabricated affection, respect and reverence, where none of us hold that or anything for her... mostly "meh". 

RELEASE is what I seek. 
Complete release. 
I know this book will help, thankyou again
Love EM

[Eagle Ray]

Dear EM,

This is an important topic and I can relate to what you describe as I was recently advised I needed to forgive by someone who didn’t know my exact situation, but assumed it was something I needed to do. Likewise, I was told last year I needed to forgive someone who had recently abused me following the death of a close family member when I was at my most vulnerable.

Years ago I read a book calling Women Who Run With the Wolves. There’s a chapter in there that deals with forgiveness and I remember the author saying it is up to you when and if you forgive, and whether you forgive a lot or a little. You are in control of it. Someone else cannot decide for you. Also you can forgive at a distance but still not have anything to do with the person.

I’m coming to terms with these things myself. I probably haven’t completely forgiven a recent abuser, but I’m ok with that now. This person is not safe for me so I think it’s humanly normal to remain non-trusting of this person. But a lot of the charge (anger) around this person’s behaviour has diminished, so it may be in time that I progressively, organically forgive them. But I’m not making a conscious effort to do so as I’m not feeling up for that and it feels like a kind of pressure. Therefore, I’ve decided not to put myself under any pressure and I think my body-mind (as it’s like a total nervous system thing) will know if and when it’s ready and just let go/forgive. In fact, maybe letting go is the first step (the person in question becomes inconsequential) and then forgiveness naturally follows?

So still figuring this stuff out myself. But somehow I think it happens when it’s ready, like something that has it’s own timescale. And if you don’t totally forgive that’s ok. Perhaps it’s even when we’re not trying to that it somehow happens gradually on it’s own as we fill our lives with more positive experiences and better people going forward?

[mmMekitty]

That's a huge question, EM. 

A quick google search & I am not satisfied with what I have found, because I think forgiving means more than Not being angry or resentment, or wishes for vengeance or karma to come & bite them, or to stop carrying all the 'negative' feelings.

I think forgiveness comes when we find reasons to feel more human compassion & understanding.

I think I have in some ways, forgiven some people. I understand far better now what was going on & that everyone is not perfect & makes mistakes, sometimes really big mistakes, & sometimes without a moment taken to consider the harm & hold off on taking actions that do harm. I understand how easily the severity of harm may not be understood at the time, too, from my perspective as well as theirs.

I understood next to nothing when I was a child. I expected adults & even my older brother to know a lot more than me, & a lot more than they actually did.

I thought, I could forgive, if I knew they understood what they did, & how much it harmed me. I didn’t know! 

I now know: I will never have that need/wish fulfilled & what's more, I don't feel I need to have answers from them anymore.

I think forgiveness can allow us to move from needing them to hear my grievance, or seeing them have to make any restitution or receive any punishment, or even to have any thoughts or feelings themselves - big mountain to ask of myself, ain't it?

Instead, I have a need to forgive myself. I want to understand how & why I could have, many times, put myself in the way of harm coming to me from these people. I have to learn about my mind & feelings to understand & then feel kindly towards myself, more able to accept my mistakes, my ignorance, my wanting my emotional needs met - in harmful ways, it would seem, & learn how I feel about them says a lot about how I feel about me. & learn to recognise & avoid, best as I can, those people.

Time does alter one's perspective. Growth does too. Careful examination of how we feel, think & act helps too.

So, you see, I don't quite agree with Oprah. (lol)

Maybe, consider for yourself, what would it mean for you to forgive?

There are certainly some cruel & vicious, thoughtless & wilfully violent people in the world, I could never feel forgiveness for, no matter how it is defined.

mmMekitty

[Eagle Ray]

So I just thought another way of looking at it EM is not that a lack of forgiveness is an obstacle to higher potentials. Rather, just keep reaching for the higher potentials, and that may in turn organically lead to forgiveness?

I’m no expert here, so just thinking aloud, but maybe as you manifest peaceful, positive things going forward, bits of you clinging to any resentment/non-forgiveness let go?

 I find if I hold resentment it’s a form of contraction in the body, including in the heart. If I focus on heart expansion and all the things that generate that (love in particular) it’s like the forces of contraction are released. I feel like there’s quite a physical component to it, so a physiological release and expansion in the body is the antidote for forces of contraction/resentment that may underlie a state of non-forgiveness.

Certain memories might push us back into a state of contraction, but as the body now also has the memory of release and expansion, we know we can let go again.

Perhaps we have to pendulate between these two states before we find a new equilibrium in which forgiveness completes?