topic Does Success has to involve Struggle? in Multicultural experiences

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 04:55:06 GMT

Hi All,

I often contemplate how usually stories of success involve struggle, to such a degree that it could be easy to assume from the outside that overcoming struggle was the only way. In my cultural background for example, (Greek), Odysseus had to endure decades of severe hardship prior to returning to Ithaca. Ancient Greek mythology as well as modern Greek culture and religion is full of myths, fables, stories, proverbs and colloquial sayings that perpetuate this notion. What's your view on this? What are the notions in your cultural background, faith, tradition but also in your family and what do you personally believe about it? On one hand, is mental illness a result of hardship, trauma and the inability of certain people to deal effectively and rise above these? And, on the other hand, in order to achieve a successful outcome in one's recovery is struggle necessary? How do you respond to that challenge if its presented to you by family, friends etc?
What if there was another way? Is there?

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

quirkywords — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 05:50:35 GMT

Donte

In my culture you work hard and you reap the success of your work, if you are not succeeding you are not working hard enough. I think hard work involves a struggle and hardships but you never give up.

My family saw my bipolar as immaturity and they wanted to know when I would grow out of it.

I think people who struggle and then overcome have learnt a lot and are often more compassionate than people who have not struggled.

Thanks for the questions.

Quirky

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:55:49 GMT

Hi Quirkywords,

It's the same in my culture, like in so many others. There is fundamentally nothing wrong of course, with working hard to meet your goals and reach your dreams (if that's what you really want to do). If struggle is involved in order to achieve the outcome you desire, then it's your call. Nothing will stop you from your dream. I think it becomes more of an issue when it turns to expectation. I guess everybody struggles with something at some point. Some struggles may be necessary and inevitable part of life whereas others could be avoided.

I like to remind myself that I am a human being, not a human doing. Many people worked hard and struggled in order to secure a better life, a home, and some security in this country upon their migration and often they paid it with their health and a loss of significant relationships.

Some indeed have become more empathetic and compassionate as a result.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Summer Rose — Thu, 25 Jan 2018 22:59:40 GMT

Hi Donte. I read your post a few days ago and I've been considering it ever since because it goes to the heart of a troublesome question that I have been mulling over for some time.

I have come to believe that struggle is part of the natural order of things and that nothing meaningful will ever be achieved in life without some measure of struggle, frustration and hard work. Any photo of a mother holding her new born in a birthing suite will explain this thinking better than I ever could with words.

I do not accept that mental illness is "inability of certain people to deal effectively and rise above" hardships. It is illness. Plain and simple. Just like cancer, diabetes and heart disease are illnesses. And all illnesses require struggle to heal.

It helps me to remember that there are 7 billion people on our planet and any one of them, at any time, could be experiencing a mental health condition. We are all the same. Remembering that there are others suffering, helps one to feel connected with humanity and less alone with their pain. Considering that other people may be suffering worse than you, helps one to develop compassion for others--and this compassion is valuable. It can be channelled to give purpose and meaning to our lives. I am part of the beyond blue community for this very reason.

The real question for me, the one I can never come to terms with is, does mental illness take more than it gives?

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

White_Rose — Thu, 25 Jan 2018 23:47:05 GMT

Hello Everyone

It seems to me that you need to define success first. Is it achieving a particular goal, having lots of possessions, having power to do what you want, being content with what and who you are, trying to copy someone else in the hope you will be as happy or wealthy as them?

Success is such an individual word. We teach our children to work hard to get good marks at school, to go to university, get a good job, marry, have children etc. This is socially acceptable. What about those who do not have the resources to accomplish one or more of these success markers? What if the measure of success for some has nothing to do with the above suggestions.

Mental health is a tricky beast which seems to come and go at will. So are we successful in patches? Success because we have a respite from our MI. Back to a relapse, being unsuccessful and rejoining the rest of society. Are we successful because we are happy? A bit of a chicken and egg story there.

I most heartily agree that experiencing hardship and struggle can make us more compassionate towards others. I also believe it can make us more compassionate towards ourselves. That is the big success story I believe. Once we have stopped trying to get to the top, even if the top for you seems mediocre, we leave ourselves free to help others, to live together in peace, treat each other with respect. Donte, I love your comment, I like to remind myself that I am a human being, not a human doing. I think that just about sums up my feelings on this.

I think success/happiness are small bites which we need to treasure every day and not walk past because they are small successes and therefore not valid. Mindfulness is a new word these days, though not a new practice, and that is exactly what it is about, being present in every moment of our lives. Counting our successes, if you want to do this, in the minutiae of daily living is the best way because we really only have control over what we do individually. Working hard to be the best we can be is a very different goal to material success and it does include our emotional stability.

Mary

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Fri, 26 Jan 2018 03:51:27 GMT

Hello Summer Rose,

Thank you for your contemplation upon this. Thank you for taking time to respond. I also believe, as you said, that any mental illness is just that - an illness. I often wonder though what may contribute to this illness or what circumstantial, environmental, physical, relational, financial, spiritual, social, sexual etc factors may increase the risk of developing a mental illness. If there are risk factors as such, then would removing or minimizing these risks also eradicate the mental illness or minimize the impact on one's life? If this is true, then is it hard to achieve it? How hard does one have to work to overcome the illness (if that's ever possible). I guess it's the same if one tries to beat cancer, or MS or diabetes etc.

I agree with you that being involved in community and mindful of others' suffering could give perspective and help someone manage their condition in a different way. Of course everyone's pain is the greatest they feel for themselves and comparing it with worse cases won't minimize the pain per se, but it could help develop mindfulness and thankfulness for things could be worse.

As for the last question you pose, mental illness, like any other illness, probably takes more than what it gives, even if we could use it to see things from a different perspective and grow, cultivate kindness and empathy and forgiveness, endurance, patience etc. The reality is I guess, given the chance, most would prefer to develop these gifts without the pain.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Fri, 26 Jan 2018 03:59:04 GMT

Lovely comment White Rose.

Some days success can be to get out of bed. Others, bake a cake, take a bath, smell a rose, hold a child's hand or pet a dog. It is a very individual thing. Being mindful of our self, others, the environment we are all part of and the interconnectedness of everything and how we all affect/impact on each other and how it all comes back to us in the end, help us understand and see things from a different perspective - that's success for sure! 🙂

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Summer Rose — Sat, 27 Jan 2018 06:25:13 GMT

Hi Donte. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and continuing the conversation. Thank you.

Thinking about your first question, I believe there are many risk factors that contribute to the development of mental health conditions, such as the ones you listed. Removing or minimising these risk factors would surely have some impact, yet with so much riding on pre-disposition/genetics and an endless list of risk factors to consider, I don't know that one can ever successfully protect oneself.

Five hardened police officers may attend a horror smash and only one may go on to develop PTSD. Three teens may regularly smoke pot and only one may go on to develop anxiety. Ten women may live in poverty and only one may develop depression. Who falls ill and why? There are so many possible combination of factors that we might never really know.

I don't believe that anyone should ever stop fighting their mental illness. If one is lucky enough to reach remission that is a good thing. If one can manage the pain and function that is a good thing. And if one must endure a life-long struggle but is able to achieve some good days then that, too, is a good thing.

Some things can't be fixed, they must be carried. And I am not just talking about serious mental health conditions but also many different types of life altering/terminal illness, loss, traumatic life experience, etc. I choose to believe that there is meaning, the gifts you refer to, in the "carrying". Like you, I am confident that most people would choose to develop these gifts without the pain. But do they? Perhaps struggle is a necessary ingredient of life.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Sun, 28 Jan 2018 05:44:57 GMT

Thanks Summer Rose,

Yes. As someone told me once 'we are all made of the same dust'. But someone else added, 'Yet, not all are of the same material...different fabrics, different strengths, different care required....'

As you very well said, a number of people go through the same experience and yet they all respond and are affected/impacted differently. Personality, character, idiosyncrasy, life experiences, upbringing etc all contribute to the way we are. DNA and hereditary factors are also into play as well as whatever we learnt and copied from our parents while children. I guess, we don't need to know the 'why' to do something about it right now. I believe we can just work with what we have in our hands right now.

And, perhaps, struggle is necessary ingredient of life, but maybe pain isn't.

Resilience levels vary and even though it may be good to understand the contributing factors and minimize the risks to one's illness, the reality is unless we develop the strength to do something about it, to initiate change, to say 'enough is enough' and start doing something differently, no matter how much awareness and knowledge we have around the why we developed the illness, is not going to make any difference to the present day to day living.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Summer Rose — Mon, 29 Jan 2018 08:51:53 GMT

Really good messaging, Donte. Thanks for the chat.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Hayfa — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 03:58:31 GMT

Hi Summer Rose,

I agree with you "some things can't be fixed, they must be carried".
What if struggle was an imposed ingredient in life? For example, how do you explain to a child that (s)he was born into the poor slums of a certain country, having to learn to navigate the unfortunate environment that provides nothing of substance that a human being should deserve as is the case with other fortunate children in affluent countries. Imagine...the child grows up struggling because they know their life and environment is not fair, perhaps they live in a war zone too, and maybe they'll strike it lucky and become successful somehow, but bottom line is they didn't choose the struggle, it chose them.
In living the life situation things will depend on circumstances, perception and choices and these give rise to our mental struggles whether positive or negative.

Actually for me, the question is why the struggle in the first place? Back to the innocent child born into poverty...who decides that I am born to affluence, glory, health and my every whim exercised while another is born disabled, poor and unfortunate in other place?
I believe in divine creation by design, it is not random and we will go through many lifetimes wearing different clothes, we will live with struggles and we will will live with tribulations, as human beings we need to get a shot at everything otherwise we cannot progress further.
Summer Rose hit the nail on the head "some things can't be fixed, they must be carried", this involves the pain (unfortunately) but without it no learning, progression or success would take place and this is the necessary ingredient for shedding your clothes and wearing new ones when that new journey begins.

Hayfa

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:51:44 GMT

Hi Hayfa,

I like your perspective even though it's not what I believe. And I agree SummerRose that some things can't be fixed, they must be carried. As someone living with life-limiting, incurable illness I can highly appreciate this statement.

I lived my life up to the age of 35 as a believer. Then, life events taught me that I am not the centre of the universe, nothing makes sense or is under control, there is no purpose and it's all ok. I don't need to know. It's not about me. I'm irrelevant in the universal scheme of things. Things don't revolve around me and I don't need to know or understand in order to feel that I am ok. i learnt to give up my urge to control. The fact that I don't believe in creation or divinity anymore has taught me to appreciate every day I have here on earth in my one and only life and make it matter. Because I know that I only have a few years left on earth, it motivates me to make every day count, to not waste it, knowing that I won't have a second chance. I live in the here and now, and that's enough. That's what makes me get out of bed each morning and embrace the new day afresh. 🙂

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Guest_1584 — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 12:30:38 GMT

Seems life is a struggle for some and not others. Some people things seem to come so easy to.

it's nearly always been a struggle for me and for a long time married l was one of those that forgot the important things like my family and wife but then she neglected me a lot too with all her stuff so l dunno.

But if l could go back l know on my end l'd sure do things differently.

it's been a weird experience moving up to this area in that way after living all over and growing up in Melbourne. There's a lot of farms up here and you get to notice things about the farmers and one thing is that they work hard and often well into 7os, even 80s. But it's not unusual to see some around well in 80s and still quite fit and happy , agile. They seem to stay married to and keep the family in tact which is a beautiful thing but hard work sure doesn't seem to hurt them.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

blondguy — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 13:09:16 GMT

Hello Donte

You have written some thoughtful threads that make excellent discussion points not to mention helping people that are doing it tough with a mental illness and thankyou

Just to keep on topic if I may...Success does involve serious effort and sometimes struggle too...

Summer Rose mentioned "I do not accept that mental illness is "inability of certain people to deal effectively and rise above" hardships. It is illness. Plain and simple. Just like cancer, diabetes and heart disease are illnesses. And all illnesses require struggle to heal" This is a seriously accurate post by Summer Rose

As you mentioned mental illness can be a hereditary/upbringing issue that takes place during our formative years which we have little control of at 0 to 3 years of age when we absorb all behavior good or bad. Major life stressors also contribute to our mental well being as well.

Just doing the best we possibly can despite our circumstances is success in itself

My Kind thoughts

Paul

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:13:33 GMT

Thanks Randomx,

Hard work and struggle may be synonymous with better or positive health outcomes for many as it provides the context for one’s meaning and opportunities to embrace the challenges, respond appropriately by developing resilience and strategies for survival and ensure some level of success.

Living in a rural environment will undoubtedly have its own challenges and especially as you mentioned in a farm setting, however, this also could provide for many the motivation to fight and challenge these hardships in order to survive.

Battling in such a way within the farm context can provide a great amount of satisfaction and purpose to one’s life. It surely must require one’s whole attention and energy.

I remember one of my aunts from my mother’s side who never left the island where they were born despite the rest of them (11 siblings), migrating to the main land or abroad. She remained in the village where she was born and all her life worked the land and cared for her animals and cultivated her own veggies etc. This woman ended up working well into her 90s while most of her siblings who migrated died in their 50’s, 60’s or 70’s. This aunt of mine had never been in a supermarket or drove a car etc. She lived a very simple life on the land but all I remember is a huge smile on her sunburnt, wrinkled face and a joy that comes from working hard for your own survival and being self-sufficient.

On the flip side of course, as we know, many country people and farmers especially really struggle and do not succeed when faced with the enormities of the harsh reality living on a farm and being depended on the land for your survival. Many suffer mentally and physically and their relationships may be affected as well.

It must be very interesting experience for you having lived in an urban and now a rural setting. There are so many lessons to learn simply by observation and/or being part of such community. What a great life experience that would be despite the circumstances that may have led you to make that choice.

Thank you for sharing this with us. Wondering what supports and services are available in your area and especially for culturally and linguistically diverse people. I’m sure that online forums and access to information would make all the difference especially in isolated and remote areas.

What has been your experience?

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:29:28 GMT

Thank you Paul,

I find the forums truly beneficial in my own recovery journey and appreciate the support, knowledge and variety of perspectives on various topics that hit home and are pertinent to me.

Sharing and exploring ideas together and our thoughts, challenges, aspirations and successes for sure contribute to one’s experience in a positive and encouraging way.

As peers we are all on the same boat floating abroad life’s challenges and particularly in response to mental health and navigating our way through tempestuous but also calm days knowing that we are not alone and we are not the only ones. This in itself has tremendous potential to strengthen us and assists in the development of resilience as we go through our recovery journey.

Indeed, just doing the best we possibly can despite our circumstances is success in itself!

This thought has resonated with me. I find it encouraging especially on days where energy is low or non-existent and trying to get out of bed is a struggle in itself.

Success can be very different from day to day or moment to moment in one’s life and so is the level of struggle.

Being part of this online community has only been a beneficial experience for me. Looking forward to more. 🙂

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Hayfa — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 02:10:52 GMT

Hi Donte'

So true about success and struggle being different from day to day or moment to moment in one's life.
Your story about your aunt who stayed back in Greece living humbly into old age, it is so reminiscent of friends and relatives who have had the same experience, and I often hear stories about how this is the case because life is so simple and quaint back home in the mountains.
It is especially equated with the family and social connectors, everybody lives close, they help eachother out and they enjoy the socialising of the village.
Vegetables are organic and health problems are treated naturally rather than chemically, it is a simple system of environment/work/family. I guess many migrant families have missed that here in Australia because everything is fast paced, stressful and geared toward trying to make a life and adjust to a rapidly changing one in unfamiliar territory.

Hayfa

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Guest_1584 — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 13:01:00 GMT

Hi Donte

Yeah true l guess with the downsides in some farming areas. Here though they're mostly very very wealthy believe me , the latest utes and cars every year, kids have all the most expensive junk , many own planes and 20million worth of other farms they've picked up over the years. But more doubt that's more an area thing l guess but when we moved up here l was expecting all these hard done by struggling farming types around out of the towns but nope , not the ones round here believe me. But in other areas and different types of farming yeah l dunno , maybe they do struggle , dunno tbh. l know l hear one of them talking in the supermarket one day about his friend in the NT and he turns over 20million a year , owns 5 choppers for mustering and all sorts of things. Lotta the guys here have a million dollars worth of brand new tractor in their shed. It's quite mind boggling.

l have heard stuff about the younger ones starting out new though and if they were'n't given farms for their 21st from their fathers and stuff like many round here , those ones do struggle and often go under.

And no doubt those wealthy families have also struggled and worked like ordinary people couldn't imagine say 40 or 50 yrs ago when they cam here or whatever. Things would've been very very tough back in their early days starting out from what l've heard.

l'm in one of the towns and it's a tourist area also in from great ocean road, 8 or 9 other towns all around and the one main , Warrnambool. Everyone through the whole district towns or farms all seem to have been very hard workers through their lives. Most have at least 2 or 3 houses and theri kids do too.

lt's all been a real eye opener l can tell you.

Most of the towns are very well equipped. aAlthough when l needed counseling , being 35mins down from the main , the only one that offered free at the time, l just couldn't afford the driving and used online and phone counseling

But over all , just about all of them even the tiny towns have doctors and hospitals and schools and pretty well most basic services, and also some great stuff for the kids .

l'm not sure what's around for mental illness or more specialized things though. Over all though considering they're most only very small communities l'm really surprised at what they do have.

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Guest_1584 — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 13:17:43 GMT

Once we got the car stuck going over to another town. There was an old house , looked abandoned

But it did have a great big shed , thought there might be a farmer in there working could tow out my car.

But he came walking out from this old house and said no worries we'll go find a tractor. We went into his big shed and there was 4 or 5 brand new tractors , 2 still had plastic on them , a new merc and 3 or 4 other cars .

He looks at me and said hmm , we better pick the right tractor l don't wanna rip your car in two.

So he went up to one of the ones still had plastic and said yeah , haven't tried this one yet we'll take it for a test run . This thing was 3 times the size of my car.

Funniest part was though that l''d swear the house was abandoned and unlivable

Does Success has to involve Struggle?

Donte — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:43:28 GMT

Hi Hayfa,

That's true in some ways, even though, city dwellers tend to often romanticize the country life. The reality for most who migrated from agricultural and rural settings, either to urban environments within their own homeland or abroad to another country, did so because life was terribly harsh and they couldn't survive in that village or town or island where they came from. The majority of people don't just pack up and migrate if their lives are happy and fulfilling.

In a way, I often think, the thousands who migrated internally (domestically) from agricultural settings to urban/industrial ones perhaps did a favour to the ones who were left behind, as they created more opportunities for the remaining small numbers who stayed.

Of course, this is also an 'era' thing or generational as not many people these days decide to stay in their villages or countryside due to the limited resources and opportunities.

There are also many cases where people migrate from their country of origin to another country and still choose to find a rural setting to live, for example, the thousands of Greeks and Italians who migrated in the post-War era from islands and villages to Australia and chose to live in rural areas like Mildura, Gippsland, Shepparton etc and continued working on the land, growing olives, vines, fruit etc.

Individual circumstances are just that: individual. And of course, there are many city dwellers who for a variety of reasons decide to move to the country and live a different lifestyle. This takes place from migrants as well as Australian-born individuals and natives.

City folks may tend to believe that the ideal community and caring, kind people live in the country, but of course again, this may not be the case for everyone. We often hear of social isolation, depression, mental illnesses and suicides, drugs, domestic violence and broken families and relationships in rural environments. On the other hand, there are many caring, loving, kind people living in the inner city or suburban areas that are heavily populated and can enjoy social connectedness and belonging even if they live in crowded apartment blocks etc.

Of course when we refer to migrants who left their villages and small towns back in the 50's and 60's and migrated to inner city Melbourne, making that shift into industrial settings as you have very well described the loss of identity, coping with change, survival etc were a different story and impacted many in a variety of ways.