topic Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment in Multicultural experiences

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Rob13579 — Sat, 05 May 2018 14:14:13 GMT

My father became an Australian citizen in his 20s during his studies; so I was an Australian citizen by descent when I was born. However, I was born and raised overseas until I was 13 years old and then I moved to Australia. I can speak English clearly most of the time when I am not tired or nervous, but I still have a foreign accent (as described by some people I have encountered over the past 9 years in Australia).

Over the past 9 years, I have noticed that if I do not speak much, some people naturally assume that I do not speak or understand English well. I was in a seminar and there was a Mandarin translation service. After the seminar, an acquaintance at the time asked me whether the headphones worked properly. At the moment, I wondered whether it was because I looked Chinese to him (whom I had barely spoken with a week before the seminar) and that means I do not understand English? By the way, Chinese is a nationality and there are 56 ethnic groups in China.

I gave 2 talks which were great according to the audience; however, both times after the talk, an acquaintance I have known for ~3 years said perfect or great English as a compliment. I said to myself, so an East Asian looking person or someone with a foreign accent does not generally speak English well? which is a speculation of mine. One time someone on the street thought I looked "Vietnamese" and said "hello" to me in Vietnamese as he explained. Another person I met for the first time at a train station was impressed by my English after he found out that I was born and raised overseas. Even friends (not close) asked me how could I speak good English because "many" "Chinese" people they know do not speak English as good as I do, or they said something similar to that.

There are more experiences similar to the above examples. They all asked me "where are you from (originally)?" at some point. I sometimes struggle to answer that question because I do not know what they actually mean by "originally". I have been an Australian citizen since I was born in East Asia, so I am actually from Australia and East Asia? Or should I answer where I was born?

I believe people who asked those questions or made those comments did not mean to offend anyone. They simply have not had many multicultural interactions in their lives due to all sort of reasons, or they are trying to be nice by making a compliment.
However, I could not help but feel self-conscious because even today I still have similar experiences.

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Mon, 07 May 2018 00:50:41 GMT

Hello Rob,

What a great thread! Thank you for sharing this experience in this forum. I hear ya loud and clear!

People always ask me ‘where are you from?’, even though I’m an Australian citizen and have lived double the years in Australia than in my birth country. I usually respond: ‘Do you mean which planet?’ Hahaaa

I often also tell them which suburb I’m from to which they carry on to explain they mean ‘which country’!

Of course when I tell them where I was born, automatically comes all the stereotypical comments about my country and belief systems etc (I was born in Greece, thus immediately the assumptions come that I’m Orthofox, I dance Zorba, eat souvlaki, and lots of references to the movie ‘My Big Fat Greek Wedding’, which has actually nothing to do with my reality growing up as a Seventh-Day Adventist, being gay, having an only child which I raised alone with no extended family, grandparents etc).

I also grew up vegetarian and dancing was forbidden in my religion of origin.

The last couple of decades I’ve embraced atheism as well. So there you go!

It’s such a great point you’ve made about being judged, not only by your accent, but also by your looks.

I have a friend who has Asian appearance and yet his language of origin is Greek. He speaks fluent Greek, plays bouzouki (professional musician) and is an Orthodox. His mum is Greek and his dad Chinese (apologies but I don’t know which part of China exactly and I’m not educated enough around this).

I believe it’s important to look at the person within the Universal, the Cultural, and the Individual identity, not just one or the other.

There are universal elements that ALL human beings share - aging, pain, love, fear etc - then there are SOME people with certain responses to those universal experiences which are understood and acceptable within a certain group - cultural, eg wearing black at funerals or being very vocal when expressing pain etc - then there’s the individual response within any cultural group when it comes to universal experiences - how a person within their context is like NO OTHER human being eg someone can have Asian or European looks but speak another language that is not synonymous with their culture or belong to a religion that is not synonymous with their ethnicity etc

Person-centered approach is the best approach when we try to understand or get to know an individual and learn about their context and ways of coping with universal experiences.

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Quercus — Mon, 07 May 2018 04:26:54 GMT

Hi Rob (and a wave to Donte),

I've been thinking about what you and Donte both wrote.

I think we are all guilty of causing offence through ignorance. You made a good point about people not meaning to cause harm.

Since marrying my husband and taking his surname I have experienced this somewhat. From Aussies I get... Where are you from? Oh you married a Polish bloke? Are you learning Polish? But from the Polish-Aussies they just start speaking Polish to me. Or I get why haven't you learnt Polish then? It does get irritating.

But it has also let me see from both sides. I think people are just trying to communicate. Sometimes it is attempts to make polite small talk. Other times genuine interest and curiousity. Sometimes people are just small minded jerks.

In any conversation people make a judgement and try guess what will make an easy conversation starter with you.

Appearance. Name. Nationality. Clothes. Occupation. Gender. You name it we are all guilty of it. These forums are interesting because I know if we all had photo avatars the responses would be different. It is just human nature to make judgements. I am guilty of this too.

These questions and comments are inevitable and people will not change overnight... so I agree with Donte. Have you found was to deal with the questions and comments?

Donte uses humour. I use confusion 😊.

What nationality are you?

Oh I'm Australian I just upgraded my surname when I got married.

Where is your husband from?

Well. He's Australian. Oh and Polish. Oh and and born in South Africa. Then shrug and walk away.

Or you could use hubby's response to if you don't mind being seen as a bit arrogant...

Where are you from?

Why do you care?

Generally when he says that people are taken aback. They say they were just curious or trying to be polite. But they never bother him again about his name or nationality.

Nat

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Mon, 07 May 2018 21:56:14 GMT

Hello Quercus,

thank you for contributing to this very important thread. Yes, we all have found various ways of responding and coping when we are reminded that we are different.

The truth is we are only different ‘by comparison’ to the person who makes the remark no matter what their intentions are.

I’m interested to hear about the effect; the impact that this has in ones life.

Many internalize this ‘casual racism’ (to use Rob’s term), and I’m wondering how it may affect their mental health in the long run with an accumulative effect building up.

When something is repeated it gets embedded in ones brain. We tend to believe it as we are reminded about it and can accept it as our truth. The message is ‘you are not one of us’.

One of the complexies of human beings is that we are the only being that tries to be different, to stand out from the crowd, to be an individual etc and we talk about embracing diversity, however, on the same time we desperately try to either fit in or convince others to accept us or go to lengths to remind anyone who we might judge that they don’t fit in that they’re different. Such a paradox!

An analogy would be the various dogs playing in the park. They’re all dogs. But they’re all different breeds and shapes and sizes and colors etc.

I see how my toy poodle is instantly attracted to other oodles but avoids staffs or shepherds or huskies etc. I often see dogs of similar breeds mingle easier together. Why is that? It could be the particular smell they emanate. It could be size. It could be body language and looks etc.

The fact remains that some animals don’t like other animals from the same kind. I’m only comparing humans to dogs in order to understand and dissect common behaviors from an evolutionary point of view.

Sometimes I wonder if our likes or dislikes of certain attributes, mannerisms, characteristics such as accent, looks etc has a more primal base that defies human logic or consciousness.

Could it be that we are hard wired in a particular way through our evolutionary process as a species to act in certain ways? (My thoughts only after observing dogs in the park).

As dog owners, we always encourage various engagements between dogs and/or intervene and try to remove hem from potentially risky situations. But the fact remains that not all dogs like or accept each other. It’s a matter of trying to learn to behave and coexist in a manner that is safe and acceptable so all can enjoy the park! There’s enough space for all.

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Peppermintbach — Mon, 07 May 2018 22:15:27 GMT

Hi Rob and all,

All I can say is “me to” in answer to your thread title. I don’t always know how to differentiate between the 2 either at times...where do we draw the line between the 2? I don’t know, it can be so circumstantial and it depends on the person...

kind thoughts,

Pepper

P.S. Donte’: if you look up academic articles/other info online on “generic closeness” and “next of kin”, you might find some interesting research that might help you out with your line of thinking 🙂

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Peppermintbach — Mon, 07 May 2018 22:16:53 GMT

Sorry, I meant to write “genetic closeness” (not “generic closeness” lol). Sorry again.

Pepper

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Hayfa — Tue, 08 May 2018 02:39:57 GMT

Hi Nat and everyone,

What an interesting conversation, Nat I agree with you when you say "Appearance, name. nationality.....human nature to make judgements..."
Ever so true, I have witnessed this all throughout my life too, I am a child of migrant parents and I have been in Australia since the age of two. When I am with my husband is who has been here for 25 years and has a very heavy accent (we still joke around and call him 'fresh of the boat'), people hear him talk and then hear my Australian accent and ask 'but how did you two meet' or ' where are you originally from because you look ethnic'.

Let me tell you a story about my experiences of how people judge and treat people based on what they see in front of them....so I have owned a family restaurant with my husband for the last 12 years, on a Friday and Saturday night I can be found behind a pizza bar-fridge, wearing a cooking apron, head down topping pizzas and flipping pastas in a hot pan over an eight burner stove...phones ringing non-stop, kitchen filled with cooks and pandemonium equivalent to Gordon Ramsey's Hells Kitchen minus the swearing (sometimes)....Customer comes in, maybe jovial, happy, maybe complaining over the wait times, so you can imagine the type and tone of conversation at me. Oh..wait a minute, a new conversation takes place, somehow I mention where I work by day or that I used to work in PR or my previous job was a clinical trial researcher...Lo and behold....their tune changes, their look changes...the conversation changes.

I think it has always unfortunately been that stereotyping and judging mentality in human nature, I don't think it is intentional and I think it is just how we have evolved as part of our growth experience. Perhaps being the diverse country that we have become has made people all the more intrigued.

Hayfa

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Tue, 08 May 2018 09:22:08 GMT

Thank you Peper!

Will do.

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Quercus — Tue, 08 May 2018 15:10:32 GMT

Hi Rob,

I hope you don't feel excluded by your own thread! It just shows you've created a topic people are interested in but we really do want to hear what you think and feel if you feel able to write again.

I think Pepper and Donte and Hayfa all make important points don't you?

It is curious to me that a lot of the emotions evoked being judged based on nationality are very similar to how we feel being judged generally. For example when I speak to a tradesperson and they tell me to ask my husband to call so they can explain. I'm a woman not an imbecile. The judgement hurts just as much.

I like how Donte talks about judgements being embedded in how we see ourselves. Again I don't think this is unique to multicultural experiences. But I do appreciate that is what this section is for 😊.

I often wonder if the problem lies more within us?

Why are we vulnerable in the first place to care what a someone thinks of us? Shouldn't we care more about what the people we value think? Or what WE feel?

I think putting energy into fighting what others say is futile. There will always be people who judge by your nationality.

My psychiatrist says a lot if you are hoping to change what others think you're setting yourself up for failure. You can only control YOU.

So I do see it as vital that you find a way to let the comments slide off you. I'm not saying ignore or accept the comments but to not allow them to influence your sense of self. How? Any ideas?

I would say respond with enthusiasm. That always seems to throw people.

For example...

Your English is good

Smile brightly (even better is laugh) and reply happily...

You'd hope so seeing as it's my native tongue (doesn't matter if that's true).

Then change the subject. Shut down that line of conversation.

I've seen people do that before and it tends to shut down the line of questioning that is making you uncomfortable.

Nat

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Peppermintbach — Tue, 08 May 2018 19:34:14 GMT

Hi Rob and all,

Rob: as Nat kindly suggested, if you’re still reading, please feel free to chime in at any point with your own thoughts 🙂

Donte’: you’re most welcome. Hi Hayfa xoxo

Nat: Thank you for sharing your insight. That is certainly a thought provoking angle and it’s great how you were able to look at things from a different angle 🙂 wonderful points.

I must admit that personally, I feel one key difference between judging people based on their racial background (compared to a lot of other things) is our ethnicity is something that is 100% beyond our control i.e. none of us “chose” our ethnicity and we can’t change it either. It was assigned to us at birth.

Theoretically, I can change where I live, I can change jobs, etc, etc but I can’t change my ethnicity. I’m not saying it’s okay to judge or discriminate based on those things (e.g. job, etc) but I’m saying those things can be changed in theory. Of course I realise the practicality of it might be another story...I’m not suggesting we should ”change” who we are for others’ sake but my point is ultimately about how ethnicity is with us for life. We can choose to identify with it or not but it’s still in our genes.

That being said, I get what you’re saying about how building resilience and personal confidence plays a role. Yes, I agree those are important points that would help a lot of people. Excellent points 🙂

Although I feel the issue with suggesting to people that they can use clever quips to defend themselves is the command of the English language varies so much between individuals. After all, assertiveness skills aside, some people struggle with English because they recently arrived in Australia (or for other reasons) and may lack the language skills to defend themselves.

For example, much of my extended family wouldn’t be able to defend themselves against certain remarks (or educate/enlighten others about) about their cultural background in English. Some of them struggle enough to communicate with the employees at the local supermarket, let alone be able to defend themselves against certain comments or articulate their experiences well enough so people can understand the depth of their pain.

Anyway, great points and it’s good to see how you can approach this issue from a different angle. Great to hear your perspective 🙂 xoxo

Pepper

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Wed, 09 May 2018 03:59:58 GMT

Hello Hayfa,

Thank you for contributing to this important discussion.

It’s true, humans, like all other animals discriminatevagainst anything different, anything that stands out. It is often perceived as a threat.

One of my favorite songs by Siousie & the Banshees tells a story about a bird that some kids capture and paint its wings for fun. When they let it fly, it goes to find its flock naturally, only to get killed by the rest of the flock who don't recognize it due to the different appearance it now has!

People are like all other species. At a primal level, we tend to reject anyone who looks or smells or sounds different than the rest. It’s just nature.

Racism can also be experienced by the same cultural group towards people within the same group. For example, mainland Greeks may not like an islander Greek accent etc.

Also, for example, Greece-born people may discriminate against Australian-Greeks and Vice-versa etc. I see it all the time! And it is applicable to every single ethnicity.

We don’t like differences. We are attracted to similars and feel safe and secure within our own little groups. Most like the familiar. The secret is to find a balance and accept differences without pin pointing them and making an issue out of it.

I was told once to never compliment ones appearance or clothes, rather comment on their attributes and achievements; their contributions to society.

We don’t get to choose where we are born or what language and religion we are taught. We don’t get to choose our sex or skin color, so why bother pointing it out? Maybe,after all, we are not as evolved as we would like to believe we are!

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Wed, 09 May 2018 04:37:11 GMT

Hello Quercus,

I think you are right when you say we are the ones in control of our lives and our reactions.

We cannot be the flavor of the day for everyone and anyone all the time!

What we do with other people’s judgement and prejudices and how we detach from that so it doesn’t hurt us is a skil we all have to learn early on in life.

I grew up hearing from my mother that I wasn’t good enough or smart enough or handsome enough as so and so. As a child I was hurt and misplaced feeling judgement and disapproval. But as an adult I see things differently. So what if I’m not so and so? Big deal if I’m not as good, as smart, as handsome, as tall, as rich etc etc

I’m me. I’m not them! And I wouldn’t want to be anybody else even if I had the chance. I’m good enough for me. The rest will gave to deal with their own issues in their own ways. I’m not responsible for their reactions.

That has helped me carry on in the midst of hostility and judgement. X

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Elizabeth CP — Wed, 09 May 2018 04:38:44 GMT

I have read through this thread & can understand why people may feel upset being asked about their ethnicity oir similar particularly if this has been used in the past in a negative way. On the other handI think sometimes people ask these questions as small talk & to get to know the person. Finding out someone comes from x. They then ask what X is like & through this discussion learn about that person's country, ethniity, culture from the person's point of view. For me understanding other cultures is interesting & gives me a greater appreciation of our differences & similarities & learn from each other. I think anything which promotes greater understanding is a good thing & helps break down stereotypes. We have all hear things at school in the media or from other people about different countries & nationalities & their history. I like to understand the lived experience of the person from that area or descended from that area. I certainly don't want to put people into boxes & rate them as good or bad or in between.

My question is 'How can we ask questions to promote health discussion & learning without unintentionally insulting people or upsetting them?'

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

quirkywords — Wed, 09 May 2018 04:56:44 GMT

Maybe I am missing the point here, But I am a curious question and I ask people what town they come from from all time- as I have a shop and it is a way to connect with customers.

If I ask a question I am not stereotyping I am asking people a question where they come from.

In the 1960s and 1970s I was often asked what country I came from as I had dark hair and brown eyes not blond.

When I travel overseas people ask me what country I am from and I tell them as they are just being friendly.

I can see if the question comes with assumptions and stereotypes as I get when I tell people my religion, that can be annoying.

I would like to know the answer to Elizabeth's question

"How can we ask questions to promote health discussion & learning without unintentionally insulting people or upsetting them?"

Quirky

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

JessF — Wed, 09 May 2018 05:28:54 GMT

I think part of the answer might lie in reflecting on why we feel the need to ask questions in the first place. Being curious in itself is not a virtue, it might satisfy you but from reading the answers in this thread it is obviously quite exhausting for the person who has to endure these questions over and over, with the cumulative effect being a message that 'they obviously don't think I belong, or they wouldn't have asked me the question'.

If you're travelling overseas, you are a self-identified 'outsider' so I think it's a bit different to people who have lived in a place for decades and still get asked where they're from.

I have found if you take the time to get to know a person through regular conversation, they will usually volunteer information about where they are from, be it another country or the next street over.

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Hayfa — Wed, 09 May 2018 05:52:25 GMT

Hi,

What a very good question!
I have found from personal experience and from my work with supporting people that it is never what you say or ask but how you say or ask it. If a person shows genuine interest and asks questions from the perspective of being inspired, holding in high esteem or envying you then it can empowering to feel valued and feel that people have a genuine interest in YOU as the person.
Those positive, genuine interactions and questions that come from wanting to know because of admiration are the ones that open to more conversations that teach and build knowledge.

I would really love to hear your views on this Rob, you started a wonderful thread that obviously resonates with many people.

Hayfa

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Rob13579 — Wed, 09 May 2018 08:42:29 GMT

Hi all

Thank you for all of your replies. Sorry I have been busy the past few days.

I just say "Thank you" and move on whenever someone gives me any compliment as long as they are not being sarcastic.

I usually answer where I was born and move on. If I were talking to relatively close friends, I would give them the long version.

I think I am getting used to those questions and comments I described above; nevertheless, whenever I am having a bad day, I get sensitive to almost everything.

Sometimes people say things unexpected and I do not even have time to process the situation, so my answers are usually very short.

My point is sometimes I get confused about people's mentality when they make certain comments or ask certain questions.

Like what some of you have said, people try to understand or make sense of each other. Some people are trying to know me; meanwhile, I am trying to understand them.

Yes, it is up to me to decide how I respond.

Often I am not affected by some people's controversial comments or questions, but sometimes I just get tired of hearing the same comments or questions which may associate with some stereotypes and/or have a negative connotation.

The crux of the issue is about understanding and respecting different opinions. Having genuine and respectful conversations, and always keep a positive attitude in our daily lives (which I am still working on) reduces misunderstandings and conflicts (verbal or mental).

I thought this was a good topic for discussion, but I did not realise this topic resonates so many people.

Again thank you all for sharing your experiences, advice, and discussion.

I am new here by the way.

"Greetings, everyone."

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Wed, 09 May 2018 10:08:29 GMT

Hello Elizabeth,

That is such a good point you’ve raised! Thank you.

We live in such an intense and suffocating politically correct environment these days that we constantly walk on eggshells and no matter what we might say or not say someone, somewhere gets offended.

It has made me avoid eye contact, avoid conversations and small talk and carry on all alone doing my own thing. The less interactionthe better. No hellos in the lift. No gestures down the street. No eye contact unless absolutely necessary (like when I’m paying for petrol) and that really quick and momentary before I glance away. At the lights I only look ahead through my tinted windows and very dark sunglasses.

Even with all the anxious awareness and the overly tense state of alert that I’m forced to live by here in the inner city in Melbourne, I still get harassed at times and assaulted verbally or physically on a couple of ocassions.

You see, it’s a violent crowd down here, mostly drugged on ice or drunk and one cannot be too careful. Even police is scared and sends four officers with guns in every call they get! (I live in public housing). Double lock my doors and triple lock my windows too as the sirens and police helicopters go rampant every day and night. I’ve witness violence that only in movies most people have seen.

One may say that our environment may affect our mental health and stress levels. I usually put my ear plugs, take a few sleeping pills and try to get a couple of hours sleep if Im lucky.

Won’t be too eager to answer questions about my origin and accent....

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Wed, 09 May 2018 10:12:18 GMT

Hello JessF,

Thank you got your input in this thread. I don’t believe anyone could have put it better than you did. X

Difficulty in distinguishing between casual racism and a neutral comment

Donte — Wed, 09 May 2018 10:15:29 GMT

Thank you Rob,

And again a warm welcome! X